We really need to leave Sona alone, for real! She's already squishy, slow, and doesn't hit with a very impressive amount of damage. Why does Rito feel the need to consistently nerf her. When there are things like Nunu's ult still hitting like a truck and let's not even talk about Rek'Sai. I would like to get some public opinion on this and hopefully let Rito hear our voice. Supports unite!
Subject 55 votesThe entire forum has been filled with negative activity towards the sona nerfs with the exception of people in bronze/silver who don't actually know how to cope with fighting a Sona. Sona was previously a fun champion and had ALOT of negative set backs for the type of champion she was. Like for example, if she poked she also pushed the lane, if she is pushing the lane she has no gap closers. So, the squishiest champion in the game (Besides Anivia) is forced to push if she wants to poke and will obviously be getting a ganked-it means a certain death if she gets hooked, caught or binded in anyway shape or form.
So much counterplay it is unreal for the nerf to even exist, the entire forum was filled with negative activity to the point of a Riot staff member replying to the negative activity and only ignored what the community was saying-stating that the nerf will be going live even if we were complaining about it. Also, i would like to mention this logic that Riot provided us with the nerf and the details, they are 'hitting her early game' but they are only hitting her scaling, which scaling-well . . . scales into the late game.
TL;DR, Riot does not care what we have to say unless if it is about the Lee sin crowd. Lee has MUCH MORE utility than Sona, why don't you consider playing Lee support? You will not have to worry about him being nerfed, because he has a shield that protects him from any nerfs possible. However i will happily help out with a petition.
"For a champion that has her fair share of counters (ex. Leona, Blitzcrank, vocal chords), Sona's pattern lacks significant counterplay when these champs aren't present, leaving her laning phase pretty oppressive. To give her opponents more windows to counterattack, we're reducing some of her skirmishing power so she's not so obnoxious with that harp. Etwahl, sorry. POWER CHORD DAMAGE AMPLIFICATION 50% ⇒ 40%"
-Riot
FantasySniper1 votes[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVcdNntq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-16T23:11:46.549+0000)with the exception of people in bronze/silver who don't actually know how to cope with fighting a Sona.
Actually, most of the people that take that position are in plat+.
So much counterplay it is unreal for the nerf to even exist
Please do give some examples.
67chrome4 votesWhy does Rito feel the need to consistently nerf her.
Same reason they consistently nerf any champion - they're really good and see a respectable amount of play.
When's the last time you saw an Urgot nerf?
Also, reeeeeeaaally important to keep in mind what exactly supports do. Looking at Sona's relative defense, speed, or damage is pretty useless in regards to her actual roll.
She's held the highest monthly win rate in Howling Abyss ever since that map was created, and currently LoL King is showing her at the 5th highest monthly win rate in Rift, so it's not like she's bad. Sona is quite possibly the single strongest, or at least most reliable, champion when it comes to 5v5 situations.
Subject 55 votesYou do realize Nami does her job 100% better correct? Also, you are using Howling Abyss as an example.
Subject 55 votesForgot to mention supports who nullify about what you think a support does.
More? Oh wait, all of these champions all ready had more damage than Sona XDDD
67chrome3 votesYou do realize Nami does her job 100% better correct?
If Nami lands everything perfectly. It's possible for Nami to miss everything, shooting her 5 MPH healing beam out a second to late. Unless she's played by Robin Hood, you can dodge a lot of her stuff with the reflexes of a potato. Sona does beat Nami in reliably doing things, which is the price Nami pays for having more power when her stuff actually connects.
Also, you are using Howling Abyss as an example.
Why not?
Howlying Abyss isn't a game mode Riot balanced their champions around, and it has a very different landscape and play style.
A landscape that highlights differences in how champions perform within different conditions.
If a champion can excel in a map like Abyss, Dominion, or Treelines - it also offers solid insight into how those champions should be played in Rift and what battle conditions and engagements you should try forcing with them. As well as potential problem areas where such champions maybe bereally strong.
Most importantly such data offers insight into strengths that aren't readily apparent, which is also evidant in your oppening post. You didn't highlight any pros for Sona that could explain her being really solid in an environment like Abyss, let alone look at whether or not such an environment is worth considering in regards to her strengths.
Subject 51 votesI just used lolking, i am not debating this out with you. If it were another individual with more experience i most definitely would.
Sightless662 votesThe reason not to use Howling Abyss as an example is that it represents one scenario that doesn't exist in the actual game. Continuous sieging, no backing for health after taking a bit of poke, no other map objectives, no alternate paths with which to engage on teams with. Everything that actually gives Sona major weaknesses on Summoner's Rift isn't present on Howling Abyss. Why would we use an environment that removes the vast majority of a champion's weaknesses as being even slightly representative of their strength in an environment where those weaknesses exist?
No one is arguing that Sona is too strong because she makes a 5v5 situation sieging mid tower oppressive, because you have other choices of what to do instead of being forced into that situation.
Howlying Abyss isn't a game mode Riot balanced their champions around, and it has a very different landscape and play style.
Exactly. The situations and landscape don't exist on Summoner's Rift, so using that winrate as evidence of Sona's actual balance state on Summoner's Rift isn't valid.
67chrome1 votesThe reason not to use Howling Abyss as an example is that it represents one scenario that doesn't exist in the actual game.
What happens in Howlying Abyss does actually happen in Summoner's Rift, to a certain extent, which is why it's valuable to consider.
As you pointed out it's obviously not the only thing going on, but I wouldn't be to hasty to discard such information and label it as useless.
Exactly. The situations and landscape don't exist on Summoner's Rift, so using that winrate as evidence of Sona's actual balance state on Summoner's Rift isn't valid.
I'm sorry if I got across the point Sona's state of balance in Rift can be taken from Abyss, that wasn't really the point I was trying to get across.
What I meant was more in response to this question:
Why does Rito feel the need to consistently nerf her
Focusing on Sona's strengths is a useful tool for dealing with that question.
Why riot nerfs her.
To understand their motives, it's useful to find information that can hint at what their motivation is. Oppressive strengths in a specific area probably has a lot to do with that if you ask me. Being the indisputable queen of a map that has a decent amount of similarities to Rift is a good place to start looking for oppressive strengths.
Sightless662 votesWhat happens in Howlying Abyss does actually happen in Summoner's Rift, to a certain extent, which is why it's valuable to consider.
It happens a bit, and what is important to note is that Summoner's Rift has many, many, many counters to this form of gameplay that Howling Abyss doesn't allow for. Examining a form of gameplay in an environment that is designed to remove all counters to that gameplay while also enhancing the power that gameplay brings doesn't give you good information.
Oppressive strengths in a specific area probably has a lot to do with that if you ask me.
I'd be more inclined to believe this if their nerfs were targeted at the strengths that Howling Abyss thrives on. Movement speed and her Q power cord damage are tangental to her strengths there. What they cite as being oppressive about Sona is her laning against anyone who doesn't counter her.
Here's why Sona is queen there: she has better sustained healing than anyone else, and she has a lot of power in pure 5v5 situations. These matter more in Howling Abyss because you have no options for healing during a siege and because you will always be in a 5v5. Neither of these are true on Summoner's Rift. Drawing any sort of conclusion about summoner's rift based on situations that don't exist there is not valid.
Being the indisputable queen of a map that has a decent amount of similarities to Rift is a good place to start looking for oppressive strengths.
I don't agree. It's not similar enough to warrant useful information. In order to examine whether or not something is oppressive, you have to examine it in an environment that actually has the full options for counterplay avalivable. After all, something is oppressive when an opponent has no options for how to play against it. Howling Abyss eliminates the vast majority of counterplay options to the prolonged siege gameplay. Things can easily be oppressive there that are completely If Riot actually did this, and used Howling Abyss as a nerf motivation, then it was a mistake on their part and they need to spend time seriously reevaluating their methods.
I'm sorry if I got across the point Sona's state of balance in Rift can be taken from Abyss, that wasn't really the point I was trying to get across.
Focusing on Sona's strengths is a useful tool for dealing with that question.
Why riot nerfs her.
There is a problem in what you are saying here. You are saying Riot used this data to determine if she had an oppressive play pattern, but then they chose to make a pure balance decision by nerfing her instead of changing her play patterns. They also nerfed aspects generally unrelated to her Howling Abyss success rates, and cited reasons unrelated to it. Given their actions, I don't think your conclusion is valid. If it is, then Riot not only made a mistake in using Howling Abyss to draw conclusions about Summoner's Rift balance, but they also drew conclusions that did not follow from what could be observed.
67chrome1 votesThere is a problem in what you are saying here. You are saying Riot used this data to determine if she had an oppressive play pattern, but then they chose to make a pure balance decision by nerfing her instead of changing her play patterns.
I really doubt Riot uses ARAM data for balance.
What I'm trying to get at is more Riot's internal data for Rift can show them things we need to look at Abyss to really see at all.
Hope that clears things up.
Reason I bring up Abyss is because it offers a lot of contrast and focuses on a particular extreme circumstance, which makes it easier to see potential strengths and weaknesses for us.
So, an objective avenue to put efforts towards in helping answer the why, and hopefully an avenue that keeps away from the more subjective routes of just being sad a favorite champion was nerffed, to the point it's difficult to see their strengths.
Again - I doubt Riot uses Abyss for Rift balance, but the extreme contrast of Abyss vs. Rift can offer a lot of insight for us into what exactly the subtitles in their Rift data may be showing them.
Sightless661 votesOk, I see what you're aiming at now. Still I doubt that the utility of looking at Howling Abyss is anything but minimal. We know what Sona's strengths and weaknesses are. That's not the question being asked. The question being asked is "why are these strengths thought to be oppressive", and Howling Abyss can't answer that question because the reason she is oppressive there is because of the complete lack of alternate play options as compared to the Rift.
As an example: Pre-rework post-nerf Soraka was always one of the top winrate champions on the Howling Abyss. Defeating her was nearly impossible. On Summoner's however, the nerfs made her a mediocre champion capable of very little. The difference between her Howling Abyss power and gameplay patterns was massive.
Seeing a champion's strengths in a completely extreme environment doesn't help to know why they are thought to be oppressive and deserving of nerfs. Knowing why Riot thinks their strengths are oppressive in an environment that has the counterplay Howling Abyss.
To make this clear: When the question "Why is Sona nerfed", you need two answers. The first is "They think Sona is oppressive because of X", which you're trying to answer, but the answer is falling a bit flat because Howling Abyss is warped by a lack of counterplay. The second, and arguably more important, is "They think Sona is overpowered because of Y", which you haven't addressed. This is really the more important question, given that her changes didn't really do anything to promote counterplay, and they just lowered raw power.
Krosan2 votesI'm sorry everyone's downvoting you.
FantasySniper1 votes100% of the time? No, not really.
I've seen worse Namis than bad Sonas.
Hinro Honato1 votes[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVcdNntq,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-01-17T00:24:40.006+0000)
You do realize Nami does her job 100% better correct?
Then play nami?
Erockandroll3 votesNot sure where your getting your info. I'm not seeing anything on the surrender at 20.
Assuming their is nothing Inherently wrong with her kit. I would say buff everyone else to her level. We don't need support to be weak. Otherwise no one will play them.
Sukishoo3 votesmeanwhile at Riot Too many complaints: better nerf 
Gorsz2 votesThats kinda funny it seems to me she has an asston of utility while doing "impressive damage" to me in lane.
Taryn2 votesYou must feel so oppressed.
Luner Hunter2 votesQQ sona does something better nerf her! also learn to play son! i'm a support main and i can kick her ass bot lane all laning phase and most in to team fights! you dont see sona bot lane? shes in the fuckin bushes get some fuckin wards! you/your support not warding bushes? you deserve to get sona Q'd + passive + aa'd like the moron you are! sona's mana regen is shit if she's poking alot she's gonna go oom quicker than shit then she's useless so poke her so she has to waste mana on healing herself and waste mana poking back so when shes OOM she's worse than useless shes a free 500 gold
Rainbowgasm2 votesstop kicking the dead horse!
vscAloha2 votesThese boards can be such a circlejerk sometimes ._. Sona, Cassiopeia, etc. Please find a way to not circlejerk.
Luner Hunter1 votesit's not a circlejerk when EVERYTHING they've done to her since the end of Season 3 was a HUGE FUCK UP and rito knows it but morello hates healers and Fearless fucked up the rework...
Sightless661 votesReally? I thought it was everything they've done since the end of season 2 that was a mistake. Or the end of Season 1. If only people kept the same circlejerk going. If we all pitch in, I'm sure we can make this one last forever.
FLY Slotmachiner1 votesI don't think anybody has had a good Sona in there game I guess; my personal experience, my friend mains Sona and he finds it that she deserves these nerfs. She does quite a lot of damage than what you might think with her Q+Passive+LichBane; Supports do more than heal by the way, Sona provides a Stun sort of Ult, she reduces damage, slows, increases ally damage, and provides shield. Now, if they continue nerfing her, than yes, than that would become a problem. I think her overall problem at the moment is that her teamfight is way to strong, and Riot is not taking in her unfortunate laning phase when doing these nerfs.
FantasySniper1 votesHah, either everyone that wants to not have Sona nerfed can't understand how to answer the question, or people actually feel fine with it.
