I think bot lane has way too much influence
When every other lane wins but the bot lane can just 2v5 I think there's a real issue, and if your bot lane is useless when behind, it's an even bigger issue.
200 Comments
Thefrostyviking20 votesAny damage carry that goes 22,6,11 can legit carry hard as long as their team peels for them, it's not even difficult.
Been there on Syndra, Irelia, jax, Varus, Shyvana and even damn Ashe.
Even Ashe..
Rather than botlane being an issue, the issue is that your opponents got so fed in the first place, that more than anything indicates an issue.
Teridax686 votesWhile I personally do think that any champion who gets that far ahead should deserve to solo carry, I do think that solo/duo carry potential tends to be distinctly stronger in bot lane than elsewhere, and that it's also easier there for the marksman to get to such a ridiculously high score than the other lanes. In this respect, I'm not saying it's impossible to solo carry on Syndra or a fighter, but that doing so tends to be significantly more difficult than for the average marksman, especially current outliers like Ezreal, Miss Fortune, Vayne, and so on.
It's also worth mentioning that in the above screenshot, the losing team was actually slightly ahead on kills, and with the exception of the marksman was doing quite well: Fizz and Xin Zhao were both pretty distinctly ahead, the support Annie had a very healthy amount of kill participation, and Nasus had farmed 204 CS, enough to gain a respectable number of stacks. Furthermore, burst champions like Annie and Fizz are specifically designed to burst down squishy damage-dealers such as Lucian (Annie in particular should have been able to counter his mobility), and the enemy team had a pretty mediocre front line. It is entirely possible that the losing team didn't play well, didn't focus Lucian properly, didn't rotate correctly, etc., but this is also not the only recorded instance of this kind of situation. There are, in fact, a great deal many more cases where bot lane singlehandedly managed to carry the entire game, and comparatively far fewer instances of the same happening with other team members, so unless the enemy team just happened to play badly in every single one of those matches, I do think there is a larger problem going on.
Thefrostyviking4 votesBotlane tends to carry harder because when one side wins a fight they get 2 kills in total, that twice the amount of any other lane.
Obvious, but important.
For the class that scales the hardest with gold and the class that is designed to work even without a surplus of gold the snowball becomes quite ridiculous really fast if they keep getting kills.
Looking at teamcomps i´d guess lucians side always started their fights with thresh hook into veig stun into thresh cage which effectively keeps Lucian as safe as he could be, and he even got cleanse anyway.
Annie, xin, nasus and fizz are worth a fart if they cant go near their target, which is honestly nearly certainly what happened there, there was just no way to get past the peel onto lucian given their teamcomp.
Then Lucian, the nr 2 early game marksman, snowballing, is just a equally great disaster after that, he is designed to have a strong early, give him a snowball ontop and its pretty amazing that the game even went on so far.
Doesn't really matter how well the other team played, the moment Lucian&thresh got so insanely fed it became easy for their team to just group up around them and shutdown the other team.
Fizz will die instantly if caught by any CC, Xin will be useless even if he get's near lucian past veigar because of Thresh and teemo.
Annie will only do anything when she has flash, but lucian had cleanse.
Nasus is a overgrown wild dog infront of CC, and he is also very useless when enemy damage is so overwhelming that he can't survive even when ulting.
That game was already a bundle of misery in champ select to a degree, Veig alone is a massive issue for the enemy team thanks to his cage.
Add monstrously fed lucian ontop, a thresh&a teemo to shutdown Xin and you have the hard counter dream.
Teridax683 votesOutside of his ult, Lucian is exceptionally short-ranged, so he should have at some point placed himself near Annie. Fizz can make himself untargetable, and thereby dodge through Veigar's E. Nasus suffers hard against CC, but the only two major sources of crowd control in teamfights on the enemy team were Veigar (whose E is telegraphed and area-based), and Thresh. I don't think it's a reasonable expectation to assume that Nasus should get hard-countered if there are so much as 2 champions on the enemy team with CC, as that would imply he'd be unviable in almost every match. Unless both teams were constantly fighting at choke points that Veigar could have covered completely with his E (and assuming that Veigar landed every E, which is unlikely given his score), there should have been sufficient room for at least Fizz and Xin to dive the back line directly, with Annie having enough burst to deal with Lucian once he gets close.
As evidenced by Lucian's items, however, namely the presence of both Guardian Angel and Mercurial Scimitar, he was not only able to completely counter-itemize against this burst and CC (and that itemization implies that both were, in fact, effective against him), but also do so in a manner that did not compromise on his damage. This isn't something other classes can really do, and I can guarantee you that in the replay, Lucian managed to burst the enemy team down after surviving their damage, picking them off after they blew all of their cooldowns. Again, this is not a situation isolated to the above case, and there are plenty of other situations where likely the exact same thing happened. It isn't a matter of being hard-countered (I personally think the losing team had a much better comp than their opponents), so much as a case of one marksman snowballing out of control relative to everyone else.
Thefrostyviking1 votesFizz needs to land ulti to really have kill pressure against anything with even a little magic resist, and ten times so against a insanely fed marksman that will just straight up delete him in a prolonged fight.
Why would lucian need to go near annie? He can just kill her team off one by one then let thresh go in on her before following up, he might eat a stun but nothing more than that unless she flashes.
Veig doesn't need to land stuns in fights, he just needs to place them approximately right, that's one of his strengths, him feeding his ass off in lane won't make a difference in that regard. Causing the enemy team to be divided and scattered is more than enough when his lucian and thresh can't be beaten in a fair fight.
By virtue of being so fed they pretty much win any and all 2v2's and even possible 2v3's.
Later on in the same game veig can just ult-execute any low health targets.
Nasus is literally straight up garbage in teamfights when he can't go near anything, and against a fed marksman he´ll just die without doing anything.
He only had 
for armor too, that's far from enough against such a massive lucian.
And let me guess, there was never a single instance when more than 2 people attacked lucian and never a single one when thresh wasnt there giving him barriers and helping with peel.
Of course, given that that other team was so behind with the exception of Xin (who still needs time to deal damage) it's no wonder they could not manage to kill Lucian before he just melted them.
Only hope was Fizz landing an ulti, or annie, but annie was too much behind and is too flash reliant while Fizz is just garbage against Organized teams since his ulti will never hit a important target.
They had no chance of winning teamfights given how ridiculously fed Lucian and thresh were and how weak their annie was and how useless Fizz is in grouped fights x)
Doesnt help that Kalista remained 1,8,5 through the entire deal.
And merc only helps you against a single instance of CC, while GA gives 30 armor and a revive.....Which has a 5 minutes cooldown and he won't do anything under it.
I honestly think the item is pretty useless myself......like it's only helpful at countering lethality stat wise but if you really get caught out badly enough to die you´ll just die right after 9 outa 10 times anyway.
Mercurial is better in that regard, it lets you avoid CC that might otherwise have resulted in a combo, while staying mobile.
If i had to guess i´d say thresh+veig forced enemies to blow everything just to get past them only for said divers to die to lucian seconds after because they didn't have anything left........22,6,11 with 22k gold galore.
Looks like a smurf if anything.
Teridax681 votesFizz needs to land ulti to really have kill pressure against anything with even a little magic resist, and ten times so against a insanely fed marksman that will just straight up delete him in a prolonged fight.
Sure, but what's to say he didn't have ulti then? Even without his ulti, that isn't particularly true, as his W proc means that he does get to deal huge damage even then. Sure, if he misses his stuff or falls behind, he's in bad shape, but in this particular case he himself was quite fed. One damage + MR item should not be enough to counter all of his damage.
Why would lucian need to go near annie? He can just kill her team off one by one then let thresh go in on her before following up, he might eat a stun but nothing more than that unless she flashes.
This presumes that the entire team simply waited to get picked off one by one, which I think is a tad unrealistic. If Lucian's team were great at kiting or area denial, that could be possible, but as it stands they were very low on CC and Lucian, who'd normally be a good kiter, was also their only real source of damage, so it fell upon him to get up close and get kills.
Veig doesn't need to land stuns in fights, he just needs to place them approximately right, that's one of his strengths, him feeding his ass off in lane won't make a difference in that regard. Causing the enemy team to be divided and scattered is more than enough when his lucian and thresh can't be beaten in a fair fight.
Thresh is himself focused on single targets, and Lucian works best when the enemy team is lined up, so in this respect Veigar's stun would in fact anti-synergize with the duo. Splitting up the enemy team isn't really a realistic scenario here either when two members of the enemy team are capable of reaching the backline before Veigar's stun deploys. Mentioning his score here is relevant, because it's clear that whoever was playing Veigar wasn't doing too well with him, so it is doubtful that he was able to deploy a masterful E every teamfight, as per your own assumption.
By virtue of being so fed they pretty much win any and all 2v2's and even possible 2v3's.
Okay, sure, but this is a 5v5 we're talking about. Every single member of the enemy team, with the exception of Kalista, was either ahead or doing respectably. Fizz and Xin in particular had a significant lead over their own counterparts. Three out of the game's four positions had gone clearly in favor of one team, yet that team lost because their opponents got a lead on the fourth, i.e. bot lane.
Later on in the same game veig can just ult-execute any low health targets.
... if his targets get low enough. This either requires him to have a lot of AP on his own, which wasn't the case in this game (he didn't even have a Deathcap built yet), or his allies to have a lot of damage, which implies they're already capable enough on their own to kill targets without his help. This seems to have been the case here.
Nasus is literally straight up garbage in teamfights when he can't go near anything, and against a fed marksman he´ll just die without doing anything.
He only had
Nasus is garbage in teamfights where he can get consistently kited, which generally requires the enemy team to have a lot of crowd control. As mentioned above, the enemy team did not, in fact, have a lot of crowd control. In this case he itemized almost completely defensively, and Lucian did not even have anti-armor or health items, which should have made him tougher to kill. Nonetheless, even in this particular situation that should have given him a lot more room to operate, he lost to a marksman with no crowd control and no anti-tank capabilities, simply because the latter just had enough damage to go kill him before he could reach him anyway. Again, if a marksman getting ahead means that tanks stop being tanky relative to them, that's just one less option to keep bot lane from snowballing as hard.
And let me guess, there was never a single instance when more than 2 people attacked lucian and never a single one when thresh wasnt there giving him barriers and helping with peel.
Thresh only had Redemption and his shield (itself not really one of the best support shields out there), and has limited peel against more than one target at a time. Presuming that the enemy team only went in 1 or 2 at a time is making a pretty big assumption, particularly since you're expecting it to have happened in every fight involving Lucian, which doesn't seem to correspond to the numbers on the screen.
Of course, given that that other team was so behind with the exception of Xin (who still needs time to deal damage) it's no wonder they could not manage to kill Lucian before he just melted them.
Who exactly on that team was behind? Kalista certainly is, but are you telling me the 13/9/3, practically full build Fizz was behind? The 5/5/4, 204 CS Nasus? The 6/9/11 support Annie? Every single member of that team had more gold than their counterpart on the winning side, with the sole exception of the marksman. I definitely agree that they lacked the damage to kill Lucian before he killed them, but I don't think they can really be faulted for that, as they did really well for themselves.
They had no chance of winning teamfights given how ridiculously fed Lucian and thresh were and how weak their annie was and how useless Fizz is in grouped fights x)
Okay, so first off, Annie wasn't behind (look at how she has more gold than Thresh and comparable kill participation), but on top of that, you are literally just telling me at this point that bot lane snowballing is enough to win the whole game. This is exactly the point the OP was trying to demonstrate, and the one I was also arguing for. Unless you're arguing an entirely different point, I don't think we're disagreeing here.
And merc only helps you against a single instance of CC, while GA gives 30 armor and a revive.....Which has a 5 minutes cooldown and he won't do anything under it.
Merc Scimitar cleanses all instances of CC on you at the time of cast, and both it and GA have pretty good stats, both offensive and defensive, in addition to their powerful unique effects. By contrast, defensive items on other offensive classes, like Edge of Night or Zhonya's Hourglass, have far less comparative power. In any case, though, those items, plus Phantom Dancer's damage reduction and a support, were enough for Lucian to survive two burst champions, a diver, and a juggernaut, without even having to resort to life steal.
I honestly think the item is pretty useless myself......like it's only helpful at countering lethality stat wise but if you really get caught out badly enough to die you´ll just die right after 9 outa 10 times anyway.
It's not just that the armor counters Lethality, it's also that the revive itself counters burst. Usually, when a burst champion blows their entire combo, it's a fair amount of time before they start having any meaningful power at their disposal, so it's critical that they kill their target or bring them close to death using that combo. With GA, however, not only does it give their target an extra secondary health bar, it also puts a hard cap on how much burst they can initially inflict upon them. There's a reason the item has a 64% win rate and a 6% play rate.
If i had to guess i´d say thresh+veig forced enemies to blow everything just to get past them only for said divers to die to lucian seconds after because they didn't have anything left........22,6,11 with 22k gold galore.
So you're saying only two champions, one of which has one, heavily telegraphed instance of CC that the enemy team can bypass in multiple ways, and the other of which can only lock one target down at a time while only slowing the rest, are enough to prevent an entire team of opponents from reaching Lucian, who would also have to get in the kill range of one of said champions? And on top of it, that this happened every teamfight? That doesn't sound very realistic.
Thefrostyviking1 votesSure, but what's to say he didn't have ulti then? Even without his ulti, that isn't particularly true.
Fizz won't land ulti on Lucian past a team peeling for him, not to mention, that Dash.
And he can't get in range to hit lucian without using his E to get past veig and Thresh either, which leaves him wide open.
This presumes that the entire team simply waited to get picked off one by one, which I think is a tad unrealistic. If Lucian's team were great at kiting or area denial, that could be possible, but as it stands they were very low on CC and Lucian, who'd normally be a good kiter, was also their only real source of damage, so it fell upon him to get up close and get kills.
Except Lucian's side had both Thresh and Veigar, Thresh can easily engage and Veig's cage is huge zone denial.
And why would Teemo, ez and Veig not deal damage? Check their gold and levels again if you would.
Thresh is himself focused on single targets, and Lucian works best when the enemy team is lined up, so in this respect Veigar's stun would in fact anti-synergize with the duo. Splitting up the enemy team isn't really a realistic scenario here either when two members of the enemy team are capable of reaching the backline before Veigar's stun deploys. Mentioning his score here is relevant, because it's clear that whoever was playing Veigar wasn't doing too well with him, so it is doubtful that he was able to deploy a masterful E every teamfight, as per your own assumption.
Again, Veig doesn't need a masterful E, he just needs to drop it ontop of near lucian whenever Xin and Fizz try to go towards him or when Thresh catches someone.
It's something even Silver Veigar can manage to do, doesn't matter if he got raped by a Fizz in lane....which is pretty natural.
And how in the worlds would Fizz and Xin get past Thresh without blowing their cooldowns to hell? Flanking maybe but evidently this did not happen a lot or the stats would be different.
Okay, sure, but this is a 5v5 we're talking about. Every single member of the enemy team, with the exception of Kalista, was either ahead or doing respectably. Fizz and Xin in particular had a significant lead over their own counterparts. Three out of the game's four positions had gone clearly in favor of one team, yet that team lost because their opponents got a lead on the fourth, i.e. bot lane.
You need to check gold overall rather than individually more, in fact Lucians team ended being pretty even with the opposing side with the exception of Xin zhao.
But Lucian himself was 6000 over Xin so,....
... if his targets get low enough. This either requires him to have a lot of AP on his own, which wasn't the case in this game (he didn't even have a Deathcap built yet), or his allies to have a lot of damage, which implies they're already capable enough on their own to kill targets without his help. This seems to have been the case here.
You need check gold leves again, and consider that Veig's ulti has a lot of base damage, his stun or thresh hook basically guarantees hits and only Nasus had a fully dedicated magic resist item.
We also dont know how many stacks he had...but he did end he game barely below nasus in farm so we can assume that he also had a lot of stacks x)
Nasus is garbage in teamfights where he can get consistently kited, which generally requires the enemy team to have a lot of crowd control.
Nasus is garbage when he for any and all reasons can't hit any important target or survive at all.
If Xin and Fizz go down trying to kill Lucian then Nasus is a sitting duck.
Thresh only had Redemption and his shield (itself not really one of the best support shields out there), and has limited peel against more than one target at a time. Presuming that the enemy team only went in 1 or 2 at a time is making a pretty big assumption, particularly since you're expecting it to have happened in every fight involving Lucian, which doesn't seem to correspond to the numbers on the screen.
I am assuming that Thresh just stood between Lucian and Fizz, while going after Xin, this would let lucian kill fizz 8 outa 10 times and Xin would not get anywhere in time due to teemo+veigar.
Who exactly on that team was behind? Kalista certainly is, but are you telling me the 13/9/3, practically full build Fizz was behind? The 5/5/4, 204 CS Nasus? The 6/9/11 support Annie? Every single member of that team had more gold than their counterpart on the winning side, with the sole exception of the marksman. I definitely agree that they lacked the damage to kill Lucian before he killed them, but I don't think they can really be faulted for that, as they did really well for themselves.
Nasus was behind, relative to Lucian whom he absolutely cannot afford to be behind.
Annie had a low AP build, little damage beyond her base one.
Fizz can't get past veig+thresh without exposing himself, nor can he get any decent ults off.
Okay, so first off, Annie wasn't behind (look at how she has more gold than Thresh and comparable kill participation), but on top of that, you are literally just telling me at this point that bot lane snowballing is enough to win the whole game. This is exactly the point the OP was trying to demonstrate, and the one I was also arguing for. Unless you're arguing an entirely different point, I don't think we're disagreeing here.
Im saying her build was bad, low AP results in low damage which results in low effectiveness.
I was saying that any damage carry that gets that fed can hard carry games pretty easily.....
Merc Scimitar cleanses all instances of CC on you at the time of cast, and both it and GA have pretty good stats, both offensive and defensive, in addition to their powerful unique effects. By contrast, defensive items on other offensive classes, like Edge of Night or Zhonya's Hourglass, have far less comparative power. In any case, though, those items, plus Phantom Dancer's damage reduction and a support, were enough for Lucian to survive two burst champions, a diver, and a juggernaut, without even having to resort to life steal.
I honestly doubt Lucian was ever taking damage from more than 1 source at the time, which would make his survival quite likely.
It's not just that the armor counters Lethality, it's also that the revive itself counters burst. Usually, when a burst champion blows their entire combo, it's a fair amount of time before they start having any meaningful power at their disposal, so it's critical that they kill their target or bring them close to death using that combo. With GA, however, not only does it give their target an extra secondary health bar, it also puts a hard cap on how much burst they can initially inflict upon them. There's a reason the item has a 64% win rate and a 6% play rate.
6% play rate is pretty.......low? If it really were OP more would use it.
And the issue you miss is that a person reviving is basically a sitting duck, if Lucians team really was so weak they´d have no way to let him revive safely. Not to mention the item has a 5 minutes cooldown...i even doubt it got used even once x)
So you're saying only two champions, one of which has one, heavily telegraphed instance of CC that the enemy team can bypass in multiple ways, and the other of which can only lock one target down at a time while only slowing the rest, are enough to prevent an entire team of opponents from reaching Lucian, who would also have to get in the kill range of one of said champions? And on top of it, that this happened every teamfight? That doesn't sound very realistic. '
Bypass in multiple ways? You can walk around it while Lucian kills someone, you can flash only to lose your flash or Fizz can E and lose his E:.......that's about it.
Lucians team can just engage right through it and kill one or two before it goes down.
Fact is, by hiding inside the cage only fizz could hope to reach lucian, but he´d have to use E which he also needs to kill him.
I can believe it if we say that Lucian carried his team early/midgame but the rest of them cleanly caught up pretty well to the enemy team on average which results in a battle between Xin and Lucian.
Which lucian wins 10/10 times given the conditions.
Teridax681 votesFizz won't land ulti on Lucian past a team peeling for him, not to mention, that Dash.
This assumes Lucian's team is good at peeling. They aren't. Veigar and Thresh cannot adequately provide a team's worth of peel. Again, this isn't just Fizz, this is Fizz, Annie, and Xin Zhao, to name just the champions who can reach him consistently, plus Nasus, who can slow him.
And why would Teemo, ez and Veig not deal damage? Check their gold and levels again if you would.
They are all behind in gold relative to their opponents. What damage they can deal is inferior to that of the enemy team, the only exception being, once again, Lucian.
Again, Veig doesn't need a masterful E, he just needs to drop it ontop of near lucian whenever Xin and Fizz try to go towards him or when Thresh catches someone.
Even so, that doesn't stop Annie from engaging on Lucian, or both Fizz and Xin from dealing substantial damage to him in the process. Again, even if Veigar and Thresh were to hard peel for Lucian (which they presumably do), the enemy team has enough engage to counter that. The issue lies with Lucian, and Lucian alone.
And how in the worlds would Fizz and Xin get past Thresh without blowing their cooldowns to hell? Flanking maybe but evidently this did not happen a lot or the stats would be different.
Fizz has several instances of mobility, and both he and Xin have crowd control capable of dealing against peel, by pushing the enemy team away from their target. Again, Thresh's lockdown drops substantially past his hook, which can only affect one person at a time.
You need to check gold overall rather than individually more, in fact Lucians team ended being pretty even with the opposing side with the exception of Xin zhao.
Okay, but when literally four out of five players each have exactly more gold than their counterparts on the other team, that is a clear indication that these players played more successfully than their opponents. The only position with a reverse gold difference is Lucian versus Kalista, and that alone was enough to give the winning team a gold advantage, despite four out of five players being behind.
You need check gold leves again, and consider that Veig's ulti has a lot of base damage, his stun or thresh hook basically guarantees hits and only Nasus had a fully dedicated magic resist item.
325-650 is not actually terribly great damage for a single-target nuke or an execute (Lux's ult can deal 690 AoE damage, Cho's ult deals 650 base true damage, Garen's ult exceeds Veigar's base at only 375 missing health, and can also deal true damage...), and Veigar is notorious for being dependent on AP to scale. Nasus also had two MR items, with Merc Treads providing a significant reduction to all of the CC he was up against (a rare occurrence in the game's current displacement-heavy environment).
We also dont know how many stacks he had...but he did end he game barely below nasus in farm so we can assume that he also had a lot of stacks x)
Veigar also very obviously lost lane to Fizz, whereas Nasus won his lane against Teemo. So no, we cannot in fact assume that, and it's much more likely Nasus had a much better time stacking than Veigar.
Nasus is garbage when he for any and all reasons can't hit any important target or survive at all.
Okay, sure, but this was a situation where he was, in fact, well-equipped to hit people. By your rationale here, Nasus is garbage in all scenarios, because the average team comp will have far more peel and lockdown than Lucian's comp here.
If Xin and Fizz go down trying to kill Lucian then Nasus is a sitting duck.
A sitting duck versus whom? A 4/8 Teemo? A 5/7 Veigar? A 3/8 Ezreal? Again, the scenarios you are using to support your argument all presume that the losing team went one by one, or two by two, and got killed, leaving the entire team to focus the survivors. However, the much more likely scenario here is simply that Lucian was so strong that it was statistically near-impossible for the enemy team to deal with him, even though their terrible comp beat his even worse comp.
I am assuming that Thresh just stood between Lucian and Fizz, while going after Xin
So is Thresh focusing Fizz or Xin here? What about Annie or Nasus? I'm confused.
Nasus was behind, relative to Lucian whom he absolutely cannot afford to be behind.
Nasus won lane against Teemo, one of his main counters. Not only that, but he won by a significant margin, with nearly 80 more CS and presumably far more kills in lane. He did the best he could do, and did excellently overall, it only just so happened that the enemy bot lane snowballed, independently of his own laning, and thereby won the game singlehandedly.
Annie had a low AP build, little damage beyond her base one.
Literally the only non-AP item Annie bought was Sightstone. The rest is a mage build, with AP or magic penetration on every item. Furthermore, Annie is known for having strong base damage, giving her good baseline burst even when she does fall behind (unlike, say, Veigar, who is very AP-dependent).
Fizz can't get past veig+thresh without exposing himself, nor can he get any decent ults off.
Again, this isn't just Fizz versus the entire enemy team, this is Fizz's whole team versus Lucian's whole team. Thresh and Veigar do not have nearly enough CC to be able to keep five separate champions, including two very dive-capable damage-dealers, at bay.
I was saying that any damage carry that gets that fed can hard carry games pretty easily.....
Okay, but as I said earlier in this comment line, while it is possible for any damage-dealer to carry the game if they snowball hard enough, it is only in bot lane that this happens consistently, and not all that rarely. That is the matter being discussed. Nobody is arguing that other lanes have no chance of ever carrying at all, and again, this is not the only thread or piece of evidence suggesting bot lane snowballs too hard and too often.
I honestly doubt Lucian was ever taking damage from more than 1 source at the time, which would make his survival quite likely.
Okay, but how do you justify that assumption? Again, the argument you are making here presumes that an unlikely situation occurred not only once, but every time a fight took place. That kind of exceptional claim requires similarly exceptional evidence.
6% play rate is pretty.......low? If it really were OP more would use it.
You are welcome to check at your convenience, but 6% pick rate on an item is actually pretty damn good. Core items on mandatory classes, like IE and Berserker's, only have a pick rate at around 13%, and GA itself is in every build for practically every AD assassin, skirmisher and diver. Marksmen are the only AD class who can afford not to pick it, because they are the only class with powerful enough alternatives for those to compete.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThis assumes Lucian's team is good at peeling. They aren't. Veigar and Thresh cannot adequately provide a team's worth of peel. Again, this isn't just Fizz, this is Fizz, Annie, and Xin Zhao, to name just the champions who can reach him consistently, plus Nasus, who can slow him.
They don't need to, all they need to do is give lucian 3-4 seconds to kill either xin or fizz as they dive after him and the fight is won.
They are all behind in gold relative to their opponents. What damage they can deal is inferior to that of the enemy team, the only exception being, once again, Lucian.
500- gold won't make much of a difference at that point, it's not until you reach 1 k that it starts being obviously different.
But Lucians team had better champs for that matter, annie needs gold to work, and her build resulted in low AP =weaker than thresh.
Fizz=terrible at teamfights.
Xin zhao= struggles to get past thresh and even a boosted veigar that uses E on himself and lucian.
Even so, that doesn't stop Annie from engaging on Lucian, or both Fizz and Xin from dealing substantial damage to him in the process. Again, even if Veigar and Thresh were to hard peel for Lucian (which they presumably do), the enemy team has enough engage to counter that. The issue lies with Lucian, and Lucian alone.
Have you actually played Annie? Her effective range to hit anything aside from R is pretty short.
She cant reach him if he stands in one end of the cage and she outside on the opposite side.
Range has always been the reason to always get flash when playing annie, she struggles too much to ever get in position to do anything otherwise.
Fizz has several instances of mobility, and both he and Xin have crowd control capable of dealing against peel, by pushing the enemy team away from their target. Again, Thresh's lockdown drops substantially past his hook, which can only affect one person at a time.
Thresh has a 90% slow, a knockback and his hook, and both his Q and E have like 2-4 seconds cooldown later on, thank CertainlyT for that if i recall.
Lucian won't die in that short time from just one guy attacking.
And fizz only has one mobility spell, his E, Q is a targeted dash but it stops at any form of CC and he needs to be in melee range to use it.
Okay, but when literally four out of five players each have exactly more gold than their counterparts on the other team, that is a clear indication that these players played more successfully than their opponents. The only position with a reverse gold difference is Lucian versus Kalista, and that alone was enough to give the winning team a gold advantage, despite four out of five players being behind.
Does, not, matter, at all.
The gold difference was too small, Lucians team was basically equal to Xin's, but Lucian was a 6 miles stronger than Xin zhao, which made the difference.
325-650 is not actually terribly great damage for a single-target nuke or an execute (Lux's ult can deal 690 AoE damage, Cho's ult deals 650 base true damage, Garen's ult exceeds Veigar's base at only 375 missing health, and can also deal true damage...), and Veigar is notorious for being dependent on AP to scale.
Veigar had 197....something, CS, which means a ton of Q stacks as you argued for Nasus as well i think.
That long with his build means he had at least 400-500 AP, even without a rabadon.
Veigar also very obviously lost lane to Fizz, whereas Nasus won his lane against Teemo. So no, we cannot in fact assume that, and it's much more likely Nasus had a much better time stacking than Veigar.
Veigar had farm, meaning he got minions with Q, which equals free AP.
Okay, sure, but this was a situation where he was, in fact, well-equipped to hit people. By your rationale here, Nasus is garbage in all scenarios, because the average team comp will have far more peel and lockdown than Lucian's comp here.
Guess why he maintains barely over average winrates despite having one of the most overloaded kits we have ever see in terms of built in stats?
Lifesteal, 20%, armor pen 30%, free health, health drain, free AD, stacking damage, game's most potent slow, ulti giving his main damage 50% CDR when activated, all this for free built into his kit
And he still sits at 51% winrate.
A sitting duck versus whom? A 4/8 Teemo? A 5/7 Veigar? A 3/8 Ezreal? Again, the scenarios you are using to support your argument all presume that the losing team went one by one, or two by two, and got killed, leaving the entire team to focus the survivors. However, the much more likely scenario here is simply that Lucian was so strong that it was statistically near-impossible for the enemy team to deal with him, even though their terrible comp beat his even worse comp.
What happens in all likeliness, is that Fizz and Xin try to dive in, Thresh and veig drop cages which causes nasus to be stuck far away for about 5 seconds, fizz dies because his E is down and lucian 2 shot him.
Xin fights a bit but is negated by teemo, then the dies as well, about a second or two after fizz.
So is Thresh focusing Fizz or Xin here? What about Annie or Nasus? I'm confused.
Neither annie nor nasus will get past veig+thresh cage in time to save fizz or Xin.
Nasus won lane against Teemo, one of his main counters. Not only that, but he won by a significant margin, with nearly 80 more CS and presumably far more kills in lane. He did the best he could do, and did excellently overall, it only just so happened that the enemy bot lane snowballed, independently of his own laning, and thereby won the game singlehandedly.
If i had to guess, i´d say Xin got fed of teemo rather than Nasus smashing the lane.
Skill levels topside were probably not far apart.
Literally the only non-AP item Annie bought was Sightstone. The rest is a mage build, with AP or magic penetration on every item. Furthermore, Annie is known for having strong base damage, giving her good baseline burst even when she does fall behind (unlike, say, Veigar, who is very AP-dependent).
This was ages ago, annie has been nerfed to hell and back since then, her base damage is all about the average of a mage, and her range is bad which is her main issue.
Damage doesn't matter if you cant get in range.
And please, annie had Rylai, Sorc boots, frost queen and morello.
If she wants to do damage she needs void staff, rabadon and luden, i can't think of any mage that would deal "good damage" against any target with even a little MR at such a time in a game.
Again, this isn't just Fizz versus the entire enemy team, this is Fizz's whole team versus Lucian's whole team. Thresh and Veigar do not have nearly enough CC to be able to keep five separate champions, including two very dive-capable damage-dealers, at bay.
Except Veig cage alone keeps everyone aside from Fizz away, and thresh cage buys plenty of time as well, not to mention thresh himself.
Okay, but as I said earlier in this comment line, while it is possible for any damage-dealer to carry the game if they snowball hard enough, it is only in bot lane that this happens consistently, and not all that rarely. That is the matter being discussed. Nobody is arguing that other lanes have no chance of ever carrying at all, and again, this is not the only thread or piece of evidence suggesting bot lane snowballs too hard and too often.
Please, boards are always complaining about botlane, no one takes it seriously anymore. ' We´ve had people flaming the lane nonstop as the most OP bar none for years straight, even under the lethality meta.....
Boards credibility hit a rock bottom ages ago.
Okay, but how do you justify that assumption? Again, the argument you are making here presumes that an unlikely situation occurred not only once, but every time a fight took place. That kind of exceptional claim requires similarly exceptional evidence.
No it's pretty simple really, Lucians side pushes towards enemy tower, Fizz and Xin go diving or Thresh pulls off a hook.
Then it as i described, Thresh ulti+Veig E followed by 2 people dying will happen 8 out of 10 times.
You are welcome to check at your convenience, but 6% pick rate on an item is actually pretty damn good. Core items on mandatory classes, like IE and Berserker's, only have a pick rate at around 13%, and GA itself is in every build for practically every AD assassin, skirmisher and diver. Marksmen are the only AD class who can afford not to pick it, because they are the only class with powerful enough alternatives for those to compete.
Are you sure you are checking the right statistics over there? Lolking tends to display over all elos and normals ontop which makes for pretty awful reference material.
And of course the divers and assasins would build it x) They all go lethality right now which means they blow up after killing 1 guy.
Skirmishers.....don't as far as i recall, at least Jax and Irelia don't, Fiora does but she might be the odd one out.
And the reason marksmen do not is because, as i mentioned, if you actually die while using it then chances are you are 100% boned anyway. You don't have the defensive tools of a skirmisher or mobility of an assassin to get yourself to safety once revived.
It's only 1 outa 10 times that your team can save you once you drop into revival if things are so bad that you as the marksman have died. Naturally the item isnt exactly popular, it's much more efficient to try and ensure it won't be needed.
Which results in mercurial and maw being more popular most of the time when not playing against lethality users.
And i actually checked the game in detail, turns out OP is a lvl 28, game was a normal and Lucian was a level 21 smurf and marksman main.
12 straight wins on Lucian and 7 on caitlyn, each game a crushing victory, tells me that much.
No wonder OP didn't stand a chance, Lucian was in all likeliness a plati+ smurf.
I knew something was odd with him getting so fed x)
Teridax681 votesVeigar had farm, meaning he got minions with Q, which equals free AP.
Veigar likely got some stacks, but as evidenced by his score it is highly unlikely he got the same amount as if he had the full liberty to freefarm using only his Q (as you can see, he lost badly to Fizz). Having some free AP does not equate to having enough free AP to make up for getting shut down early on.
Guess why he maintains barely over average winrates despite having one of the most overloaded kits we have ever see in terms of built in stats?
Lifesteal, 20%, armor pen 30%, free health, health drain, free AD, stacking damage, game's most potent slow, ulti giving his main damage 50% CDR when activated, all this for free built into his kit
And he still sits at 51% winrate.
Sure, but the fact that he is nonetheless at 51% win rate, which isn't terrible, shows that he is not, in fact, garbage in all scenarios. In this particular case, Nasus was up against a team he really was advantaged against, provided he survived laning against Teemo. Not only did he achieve that, he in fact won his lane by a significant margin. Despite that, his team still lost, which suggests that the problem lies not with the fact that he got countered (he didn't), but that Lucian snowballed so hard that his own lead didn't matter.
What happens in all likeliness, is that Fizz and Xin try to dive in, Thresh and veig drop cages which causes nasus to be stuck far away for about 5 seconds, fizz dies because his E is down and lucian 2 shot him.
Xin fights a bit but is negated by teemo, then the dies as well, about a second or two after fizz.
Neither annie nor nasus will get past veig+thresh cage in time to save fizz or Xin.
There's a lot to unpack here. Firstly, this completely ignores significant portions of both teams, and as the above screenshot shows, Fizz's team had much more than just two damage threats. Second, this makes a lot of false assumptions, namely that Nasus, Annie, Fizz and Xin can't affect Lucian from a distance. Third, this presumes a very particular situation in which one team does everything right and the other does everything wrong each an every time (an unlikely occurrence, given the difference in scores). Third, this deems acceptable the fact that a marksman, i.e. a DPS-based character, can literally 2-shot an opponent, which is again part of the problem I'm discussing.
If i had to guess, i´d say Xin got fed of teemo rather than Nasus smashing the lane.
What makes you think that? In any case, not only did Nasus win his lane, as evidence by the CS difference between him and Teemo, but Xin also got a significant lead over the opposing jungler. Even if Xin did intervene in top lane, which likely did happen, that did not stop both from gaining a significant edge over their opponents, whereas Ezreal hardly contributed at all.
Skill levels topside were probably not far apart.
Nasus has 3 fewer deaths and 78 more CS than the enemy Teemo. Teemo is also one of Nasus's biggest counters in lane. For Nasus to not only survive Teemo, but in fact gain such a major lead over him, does in fact demonstrate a significant difference in quality of play during that match.
This was ages ago, annie has been nerfed to hell and back since then, her base damage is all about the average of a mage, and her range is bad which is her main issue.
220+250+400 are on the higher end of base damages for basic abilities and ults, so even if they are indeed lower than they were before, they are still above average. Her range is sub-par, but as said above, that isn't really an issue here.
And please, annie had Rylai, Sorc boots, frost queen and morello.
So four AP mage items, contrarily to what you previously claimed, which provide 235 additional AP and 15 magic pen. This represents an additional 540 damage to her immediate burst, not counting her follow-up, gains from pen, or runes, so it is in fact quite substantial.
If she wants to do damage she needs void staff, rabadon and luden, i can't think of any mage that would deal "good damage" against any target with even a little MR at such a time in a game.
So you're saying that getting just one MR item is enough to completely discount a mage's burst from the game?
Except Veig cage alone keeps everyone aside from Fizz away, and thresh cage buys plenty of time as well, not to mention thresh himself.
In the absolute best case scenario where Veigar's cage blocks a checkpoint and maybe directly hits a few champions, it may buy his team some time, but in the average case scenario it tends to get sidestepped completely, especially in an environment rife with mobility. In this particular case, Veigar was indeed faced with a highly mobile team, including a champion whose untargetability made them particularly well-suited to counter him. The same applies to Thresh's cage, which is typically used to apply lockdown to a single target, rather than provide any substantial area denial. Their CC was simply not sufficient here to explain their team's victory.
Please, boards are always complaining about botlane, no one takes it seriously anymore.
Who, Boards or bot lane? It's not just the Boards, either, as you will find the same kinds of opinions on Reddit, Twitch, YouTube, including from pro players.
We´ve had people flaming the lane nonstop as the most OP bar none for years straight, even under the lethality meta.....
Because clearly, the Lethality meta pushed the marksman-support combo out of bot lane? As in, the mandatory compositional requirement that has persisted for years straight, and that is considered necessary to winning a game against a team with the same duo?
No it's pretty simple really, Lucians side pushes towards enemy tower, Fizz and Xin go diving or Thresh pulls off a hook.
Then it as i described, Thresh ulti+Veig E followed by 2 people dying will happen 8 out of 10 times.
So Thresh can hook 2 targets at a time now? Even if that were true, and even assuming the scenario you described occurred 100% of the time, that would still leave at least two more champions capable of killing Lucian, and in the meantime Lucian's team would have blown all of their CC. Yet again, this suggests that it was neither Thresh nor Veigar who were truly responsible for winning the game in this manner.
Are you sure you are checking the right statistics over there? Lolking tends to display over all elos and normals ontop which makes for pretty awful reference material.
You are equally welcome to check whichever other source at your convenience, which will corroborate the data I have provided and cited. Checking individual champion pages will, for example, confirm my statements in a similar manner, and that kind of information is more widely available. This is all presuming that Lolking isn't a reliable source, which it is, as measurements across all elos and normals do not in fact go against what is being discussed here.
Thefrostyviking1 votesVeigar likely got some stacks, but as evidenced by his score it is highly unlikely he got the same amount as if he had the full liberty to freefarm using only his Q (as you can see, he lost badly to Fizz). Having some free AP does not equate to having enough free AP to make up for getting shut down early on.
And i don't know where you got this "lost badly to fizz" from, fizz was down 50 CS, about 1000 gold or 3 kills, to veigar, and he had died more in the end as well.
Evidently i´d say fizz roamed off and killed people since he had 13 kills while veig had a total of 7 deaths.
So evidently, veigar got to free farm at some points, and if he got even 150 stacks then he´d with a single full rotation deal about 1300 damage against a target with about 110 magic resistance.
Assuming he ulted a target with or less than 33% health.
Sure, but the fact that he is nonetheless at 51% win rate, which isn't terrible, shows that he is not, in fact, garbage in all scenarios. In this particular case, Nasus was up against a team he really was advantaged against, provided he survived laning against Teemo. Not only did he achieve that, he in fact won his lane by a significant margin. Despite that, his team still lost, which suggests that the problem lies not with the fact that he got countered (he didn't), but that Lucian snowballed so hard that his own lead didn't matter.
Nasus had no way to reach Lucian, this is why he was no good, He had no way to get to Lucian before both Fizz and Xin die.
And yeah well, apparently Lucian reached 10+ kills very early on, naturally it results in any melee not full on stacking armor being completely miserable.
There's a lot to unpack here. Firstly, this completely ignores significant portions of both teams, and as the above screenshot shows, Fizz's team had much more than just two damage threats. Second, this makes a lot of false assumptions, namely that Nasus, Annie, Fizz and Xin can't affect Lucian from a distance. Third, this presumes a very particular situation in which one team does everything right and the other does everything wrong each an every time (an unlikely occurrence, given the difference in scores). Third, this deems acceptable the fact that a marksman, i.e. a DPS-based character, can literally 2-shot an opponent, which is again part of the problem I'm discussing.
Nasus, annie,xin and Fizz have to way to reach Lucian without flashing/blowing cooldowns to get past Thresh and veigar, and Lucian can just kill 2 people instantly while that happens.
And there is absolutely no way to prevent a AD caster marksman like Lucian from 2 shotting literally all his targets when he gets so insanely fed, only thing that could have kept him away would have been something like a moderately fed Rammus stacking armor.
But they didnt have anything like that, so naturally they all fall over like card houses when poked by Lucian.
It's what happens when someone gets that fed in leauge, this has always been the case.
What makes you think that? In any case, not only did Nasus win his lane, as evidence by the CS difference between him and Teemo, but Xin also got a significant lead over the opposing jungler. Even if Xin did intervene in top lane, which likely did happen, that did not stop both from gaining a significant edge over their opponents, whereas Ezreal hardly contributed at all.
Because Xin had to get fed somewhere, and Ezreal didn't die enough times to explain where Xin got all his kills.
A sound assumption would be that Xin helped kill Teemo once or Twice and Nasus won lane after that.
Nasus has 3 fewer deaths and 78 more CS than the enemy Teemo. Teemo is also one of Nasus's biggest counters in lane. For Nasus to not only survive Teemo, but in fact gain such a major lead over him, does in fact demonstrate a significant difference in quality of play during that match.
Or, you know, ganks, if Teemo is too scared to walk into lane to even farm then he naturally won't get any CS, and Nasus getting Fed ensures that he can just bulldoze Teemo.
220+250+400 are on the higher end of base damages for basic abilities and ults, so even if they are indeed lower than they were before, they are still above average. Her range is sub-par, but as said above, that isn't really an issue here.
It is, she can't get past Veigar and Thresh in time to safe Xin and Fizz from dying if they are engaging, and if Thresh engages then whoever's caught will just die instantly.
So four AP mage items, contrarily to what you previously claimed, which provide 235 additional AP and 15 magic pen. This represents an additional 540 damage to her immediate burst, not counting her follow-up, gains from pen, or runes, so it is in fact quite substantial.
With only a 100 magic resistance you already negate 50% AP damage, so her full rotation would only do 552 damage, provided she actually lands the entire thing which is honestly doubtful given that Lucian was smurfing and probably knows annie better than the annie player themselves.
So you're saying that getting just one MR item is enough to completely discount a mage's burst from the game?
This is actually something i have complained about myself, for yes it is essentially true-
Magic resistance seems to have been tuned with a high AP veigar or Syndra in mind, which leaves most other mages pretty dang useless without stacking magic pen and high AP.
In the absolute best case scenario where Veigar's cage blocks a checkpoint and maybe directly hits a few champions, it may buy his team some time, but in the average case scenario it tends to get sidestepped completely, especially in an environment rife with mobility. In this particular case, Veigar was indeed faced with a highly mobile team, including a champion whose untargetability made them particularly well-suited to counter him. The same applies to Thresh's cage, which is typically used to apply lockdown to a single target, rather than provide any substantial area denial. Their CC was simply not sufficient here to explain their team's victory.
Can't you see it? If Fizz uses E to get past veig and thresh then Lucian kills him, in 3 hits, because he was so insanely overfed. And if he doesnt go in then Lucian kills whoever gets caught in the cage or by Thresh.
Who, Boards or bot lane? It's not just the Boards, either, as you will find the same kinds of opinions on Reddit, Twitch, YouTube, including from pro players.
Which pros is the question though..... and what exactly did they say?
Someone on these very boards went and copypasted part of some korean junglers statement of how some marksman was too strong......but skipping out on the part where the korean explained that this was because of items....i think he was talking about Caitlyn just shortly after the lethality meta? Was too long so i don't remember exactly.
Because clearly, the Lethality meta pushed the marksman-support combo out of bot lane? As in, the mandatory compositional requirement that has persisted for years straight, and that is considered necessary to winning a game against a team with the same duo?
Because Riot wants all classes to be viable, and marksmen+supports can only lane together because they have been designed as such.
The most problematic marksmen are always those with a old subclass that either dips in as a mage or assassins, Ezreal, MF, Vayne, Twitch or Tristana.
They want as many classes as possible to be viable, but for that to be possible they can't buff any melee to be able to lane against marksmen because said marksmen would just get crushed by being too weak early.
Ever heard the tale of Botlane mordekaiser? We actually have a few of those mains on these very boards in Diamond, and at least two of them are Diamond/masters. At their best they had 60% winrate.
So Thresh can hook 2 targets at a time now? Even if that were true, and even assuming the scenario you described occurred 100% of the time, that would still leave at least two more champions capable of killing Lucian, and in the meantime Lucian's team would have blown all of their CC. Yet again, this suggests that it was neither Thresh nor Veigar who were truly responsible for winning the game in this manner.
As long as Veigar drops his cage then only Fizz can reach Lucian by blowing his E, and Fizz dies in 3 hits because Lucian was overfed.
Xin won't deal any damage because of Teemo, and he also dies in 5-6 hits because he isn't made to handle a insanely fed marksman.
Annie can't get past the cage in time, neither can nasus.
And if they by some off chance decide to actually wait and not engage while the cage is up and thresh fails too hook someone then Lucian will definitely back off because he was smurfing.
You are equally welcome to check whichever other source at your convenience, which will corroborate the data I have provided and cited. Checking individual champion pages will, for example, confirm my statements in a similar manner, and that kind of information is more widely available. This is all presuming that Lolking isn't a reliable source, which it is, as measurements across all elos and normals do not in fact go against what is being discussed here.
I did check, and the item had between 1-3% pickrate over a sample size of 3000-7000 games on pretty much all the champs, except Fiora who had a 3,7% pickrate......over 7900 games.
Its exactly the same as how 1% of the midlane players, the aurelion mains, had 56% winrate, sure it looks good on paper until you actually realize how few out of the total are actually doing it.
Would you really be impressed if 200 outa 10000 had a 60% winrate using some item? A mere 2% that is?
I am not.
Teridax681 votesAnd i don't know where you got this "lost badly to fizz" from, fizz was down 50 CS, about 1000 gold or 3 kills, to veigar, and he had died more in the end as well.
Fizz is a much worse farmer than Veigar, yet he also got 8 more kills for just 2 more deaths, which would still more than make up for that farming deficit. Anyone who has played Fizz or against him can tell here that he got a strong lead off of Veigar and managed to maintain that lead even after Lucian moved out of bot lane. I don't quite understand how you could read the above screenshot and think that Veigar won in any way against Fizz in lane.
So evidently, veigar got to free farm at some points, and if he got even 150 stacks then he´d with a single full rotation deal about 1300 damage against a target with about 110 magic resistance.
"Even" 150 stacks would imply he used his Q to kill approximately half of all minions, which does not seem likely even in the very contrived conditions you are setting here, and even so, that would not be sufficient to give him the 200 AP you said he needed to scale (and he needs much more than that). 150 extra AP is only 240 extra damage on his Q and W, and at the very most 225 extra damage on his ult. This is less than the gains Annie made from her own build.
Assuming he ulted a target with or less than 33% health.
... which would mean that target would already get easily killed by Lucian, which as evidenced by the two's respective scores, is what happened. I don't quite get why it's important here that Veigar gets to deal damage: he clearly didn't deal that much, and what contributions he did make were easily overtaken by his marksman.
Nasus had no way to reach Lucian, this is why he was no good, He had no way to get to Lucian before both Fizz and Xin die.
Nasus has a potent movespeed and attack speed slow, so even if Lucian is particularly well-equipped to deal with him, he'd still be able to catch up to him, unless you're trying to tell me that Lucian can single-handedly counter Nasus so hard that he will never be able to reach him at all (and that this is an acceptable thing). Also, what window of time are we talking about for Fizz and Xin to both die here? Ten seconds? Five seconds? Two seconds?
And yeah well, apparently Lucian reached 10+ kills very early on, naturally it results in any melee not full on stacking armor being completely miserable.
I mean, Nasus got an early lead as well, as did Fizz and Xin, but the enemy team didn't get punished as hard for having very little defensive itemization and no front line. Again, to me this highlights a double standard between bot lane and the rest of the game, where it's okay for the marksman to run away with the match if they snowball early on, but where it's somehow not okay or even conceivable for any other champion to do the same.
Nasus, annie,xin and Fizz have to way to reach Lucian without flashing/blowing cooldowns to get past Thresh and veigar, and Lucian can just kill 2 people instantly while that happens.
I feel I've been refuting the same point several times over now, but as I have detailed at length before: A) yes they do, Xin and Fizz especially are particularly well-equipped to go through both, and Annie's bear outranges even Veigar's cage diameter, B) Veigar and Thresh as the source of the team's entire peel is severely insufficient, and C) Lucian being able to "kill 2 people instantly" is exactly the kind of problem I am talking about. No marksman should be able to kill their opponents "instantly", certainly not multiple enemies at a time, and certainly not enemies, like Xin or Nasus, that are meant to be durable.
And there is absolutely no way to prevent a AD caster marksman like Lucian from 2 shotting literally all his targets when he gets so insanely fed, only thing that could have kept him away would have been something like a moderately fed Rammus stacking armor.
Okay, but this literally just proves my point. If the only way to stop a snowballing marksman from singlehandedly determining the entire match is a very specific hard counter, then in most cases there is simply no way to deal with such an incidence. That's exactly the problem that I'm bringing up.
It's what happens when someone gets that fed in leauge, this has always been the case.
So first off, that hasn't always been the case, and isn't currently the case on average with non-marksmen, but on top of that, it's become quite common for the marksman to snowball in such a way, as evidenced by many more matches beyond just this one. If the reward for getting that far ahead is a match win, that could be acceptable, but if that kind of snowballing becomes the norm, rather than the exception, that's when it becomes frustrating to most of the players in those matches. If the marksman can snowball so hard so consistently, that also suggests that it may not be a question of skill difference so much as one of excessive snowballing, which delegitimizes those carry situations. In this particular case, it is likely that the Lucian is a gold smurf whose position in bot lane gives him a unique snowballing advantage, rather than a plat+ whose mastery of the game just lets him take over completely.
Because Xin had to get fed somewhere, and Ezreal didn't die enough times to explain where Xin got all his kills.
So? Does that mean Nasus lost lane against Teemo? Because that clearly wasn't the case here. No matter which way this is spun, Nasus won lane against Teemo fair and square, which is the less likely of the two outcomes, and, combined with their end scores, a clear indicator that Nasus and Xin did in fact play significantly better than their counterparts.
It is, she can't get past Veigar and Thresh in time to safe Xin and Fizz from dying if they are engaging, and if Thresh engages then whoever's caught will just die instantly.
How exactly can she not get past Veigar and Thresh if the latter two just dumped all of their crowd control on Xin and Fizz (and therefore not Nasus)? If Thresh engages and kills someone instantly, that also leaves four other players ready to exploit the enemy team's complete lack of CC to collapse on Lucian, or at least mop up Thresh in the process.
With only a 100 magic resistance you already negate 50% AP damage, so her full rotation would only do 552 damage,
This presumes a complete lack of AP from runes, which is impossible, completely ignores Annie's magic pen, and grossly overestimates Lucian's MR, which seems closer to 73.5 than 100. I'm not sure where that 100 magic resist came from, but it doesn't really seem relevant to this particular situation.
provided she actually lands the entire thing which is honestly doubtful
I'm not quite sure how to put this, but Annie's abilities cannot miss. This is one of the things she is known for. If her opponent flashes during her R cast time, perhaps that may occur, but even then, Flash's cooldown is significantly higher than that of Annie's ult, and that also means Lucian can't flash out of Fizz's ult, or Xin's dive, and so on.
Lucian was smurfing and probably knows annie better than the annie player themselves.
This is what is doubtful in that statement, as by your own admission and Lucian's track record, he one-tricks marksmen, not mages or other mid laners. I don't think it's really all that good in an argument to rely on bold assumptions like these when they're unsupported by evidence.
Thefrostyviking1 votesFizz is a much worse farmer than Veigar, yet he also got 8 more kills for just 2 more deaths, which would still more than make up for that farming deficit. Anyone who has played Fizz or against him can tell here that he got a strong lead off of Veigar and managed to maintain that lead even after Lucian moved out of bot lane. I don't quite understand how you could read the above screenshot and think that Veigar won in any way against Fizz in lane.
What? I didnt say that he won ._.
I meant to say that he did not get crushed in lane, he still managed to farm which is all veigar really needs.
"Even" 150 stacks would imply he used his Q to kill approximately half of all minions, which does not seem likely even in the very contrived conditions you are setting here, and even so, that would not be sufficient to give him the 200 AP you said he needed to scale (and he needs much more than that). 150 extra AP is only 240 extra damage on his Q and W, and at the very most 225 extra damage on his ult. This is less than the gains Annie made from her own build.
Veigar only needed to execute or damage someone though, thanks to lucian being so fed, as long as xin and fizz die quickly there is nothing to threaten him left.
... which would mean that target would already get easily killed by Lucian, which as evidenced by the two's respective scores, is what happened. I don't quite get why it's important here that Veigar gets to deal damage: he clearly didn't deal that much, and what contributions he did make were easily overtaken by his marksman.
^
Nasus has a potent movespeed and attack speed slow, so even if Lucian is particularly well-equipped to deal with him, he'd still be able to catch up to him, unless you're trying to tell me that Lucian can single-handedly counter Nasus so hard that he will never be able to reach him at all (and that this is an acceptable thing). Also, what window of time are we talking about for Fizz and Xin to both die here? Ten seconds? Five seconds? Two seconds?
Lucian would never have to go near Nasus, and if Nasus walks forward he'll eat a thresh hook and die instantly because Lucian was too fed.
I mean, Nasus got an early lead as well, as did Fizz and Xin, but the enemy team didn't get punished as hard for having very little defensive itemization and no front line. Again, to me this highlights a double standard between bot lane and the rest of the game, where it's okay for the marksman to run away with the match if they snowball early on, but where it's somehow not okay or even conceivable for any other champion to do the same.
Where did you get this idea? It's perfectly normal for anyone snowballing that hard to overtake and dominate a game. If Xin and Fizz did not get the kills they did then that game should have ended at 15-20 minutes rather than 32.
I feel I've been refuting the same point several times over now, but as I have detailed at length before: A) yes they do, Xin and Fizz especially are particularly well-equipped to go through both, and Annie's bear outranges even Veigar's cage diameter, B) Veigar and Thresh as the source of the team's entire peel is severely insufficient, and C) Lucian being able to "kill 2 people instantly" is exactly the kind of problem I am talking about. No marksman should be able to kill their opponents "instantly", certainly not multiple enemies at a time, and certainly not enemies, like Xin or Nasus, that are meant to be durable. '
Somehow you don't seem to get it at all ._.
Fizz needs to use E to get past veigar's cage, and Xin has to run around it, but if they do lucian will kill them in the meanwhile.
Lucian was so just so fed that any normal common sense doesn't apply anymore, as holds true for anyone that fed.
I have done it on Syndra, MF, jax, Irelia and even Ashe too, as well as Kayle and Malzahar and Anivia.
And thanks to his team and his own vastly superior skill, Lucian was most likely never pressured by more than one person at the time when he was lone.
His own skill and his opponents lack of skill, something caused by smurfing.
Okay, but this literally just proves my point. If the only way to stop a snowballing marksman from singlehandedly determining the entire match is a very specific hard counter, then in most cases there is simply no way to deal with such an incidence. That's exactly the problem that I'm bringing up.
This is the case for any and all champs that get like 15 ´kills in 18 minutes, it has always been the case.
So first off, that hasn't always been the case, and isn't currently the case on average with non-marksmen, but on top of that, it's become quite common for the marksman to snowball in such a way, as evidenced by many more matches beyond just this one. If the reward for getting that far ahead is a match win, that could be acceptable, but if that kind of snowballing becomes the norm, rather than the exception, that's when it becomes frustrating to most of the players in those matches. If the marksman can snowball so hard so consistently, that also suggests that it may not be a question of skill difference so much as one of excessive snowballing, which delegitimizes those carry situations. In this particular case, it is likely that the Lucian is a gold smurf whose position in bot lane gives him a unique snowballing advantage, rather than a plat+ whose mastery of the game just lets him take over completely.
Common what? It was common under the ardent meta but it has gotten way less so since then.
And it does not happen consistently, stop being damn biased and looking on the extremely biased Reddit and lol boards ._.
Again, no marksmen mains means you´ll only hear everyone else-
Lucian was defiantly over gold, if he was only gold then he should not have been able to dominate fizz so hard, he would not get away with buying no defenses until so late if they both played on gold level.
So? Does that mean Nasus lost lane against Teemo? Because that clearly wasn't the case here. No matter which way this is spun, Nasus won lane against Teemo fair and square, which is the less likely of the two outcomes, and, combined with their end scores, a clear indicator that Nasus and Xin did in fact play significantly better than their counterparts.
What my scenario indicates, unlike yours, is that Xin crushed Ez and Teemo, which resulted in Nasus basically winning lane for free. Veigar might also have gotten smacked a few times by Xin but Fizz is such a favored matchup that its possible he killed veigar himself.
And actually...how is fizz a bad farmer? 1 E and a entire wave is cleared as long as he get's fed.....Which evidently he was......the fact that he had so little suggests that a lot of roaming went down.
How exactly can she not get past Veigar and Thresh if the latter two just dumped all of their crowd control on Xin and Fizz (and therefore not Nasus)? If Thresh engages and kills someone instantly, that also leaves four other players ready to exploit the enemy team's complete lack of CC to collapse on Lucian, or at least mop up Thresh in the process.
Because their stuff lasts like 3 seconds, Lucian just needs to kill people before those 3 seconds are over to win a fight.
And again, you overestimate the skill of people who havent even reached 30, their reactions and priorities are not on that level yet without someone guiding them.
This presumes a complete lack of AP from runes, which is impossible, completely ignores Annie's magic pen, and grossly overestimates Lucian's MR, which seems closer to 73.5 than 100. I'm not sure where that 100 magic resist came from, but it doesn't really seem relevant to this particular situation.
Point was, a seemingly small amount of MR can greatly reduce magic damage taken, which is pretty fatal when you dont have either AP or pen.
I'm not quite sure how to put this, but Annie's abilities cannot miss. This is one of the things she is known for. If her opponent flashes during her R cast time, perhaps that may occur, but even then, Flash's cooldown is significantly higher than that of Annie's ult, and that also means Lucian can't flash out of Fizz's ult, or Xin's dive, and so on.
Lucian can actually dash to avoid Annie.s Flash-R, and he would not need to flash against Xin and veig there, they would not manage to both keep their mobility and get past thresh and veig, there would be a downtime of 2-4 seconds which lucian would kill them in, which stat wise evidently happened.
This is what is doubtful in that statement, as by your own admission and Lucian's track record, he one-tricks marksmen, not mages or other mid laners. I don't think it's really all that good in an argument to rely on bold assumptions like these when they're unsupported by evidence.
Just by playing the game for some time you learn the basics of all the champs, just by looking.
I can play pretty much all champs in league, not great but i can play pretty much all of them without losing hard.
I have about 15 mastery 7 champs, and at least equally many each of mastery 6 and mastery 5.
Who even knows how many mastery 5 and 4?
I can safely estimate the actions and consequences of basically everything i play against, and pretty much any other long time league player can also do this pretty easily.
Just because we've been here a long time already x)
And because of that i know, that if Lucian did not know his own champ and the opposing champs so well then he could never have pulled of so many consecutive crushing victories, smurf or not.
The fact that he hardly ever dies shows that he knows that the opponents do and how they do it, i could probably do the same myself if i wanted to......not that i feel it's quite morally right to do though.
But crushing any average player between gold and below level 20? Easy as pie.
Thefrostyviking1 votesOkay, so then by your own admission, bot lane is not a pure farm fest today, and does in fact move on its own. Good to know.
Only for those two picks, and they are notable exceptions because of it.
Sure, but how is it unique to marksmen? The vast majority of autofills push players into supporting, so I don't exactly see how one goes from there to make a special case for marksmen.
Because marksmen and supports hang together if you havent forgotten, they both have to play well or they both get screwed.
One guy cant beat two.
A main from any lane will underperform when put into another lane. How again is this unique to bot lane carries?
Happens more frequently botlane because of autofill, it's not a inherent quality rather its something that was forced to happen-
Sure, but yet again, how is this unique to marksmen? Many players overestimate their capabilities and feed as a result.
But no other role has so many people thinking it's godly OP easily capable of carrying any and all games.
Sure, but that doesn't answer the question as to why that causes bot lane to snowball so much harder than everyone else. Again, if two people are mismatched, one tends to win over the other, it just so happens that this often happens in bot lane, even against players who do main supports or marksmen and are of similar skill.
Botlane doesnt snowball harder relative to other lanes, difference is that when botlane snowballs that is 2 people being fed and strong compared to one person in another lane.
Naturally 2 is better than 1.
So you implicitly agree then that marksmen snowball exceptionally hard? Why then argue that the same isn't true for bot lane?
They usually don't, only due to circumstance does it happen now, like static shiv.
Okay, but this exactly proves my point, as you are here describing exactly why bot lane snowballs harder than other lanes.
It's not that they snowball harder, its just that they make up for a higher % of the team, so if just stupidly comparing and saying that fed botlane duo is better than fed toplane then of course it's true, it's a 2v1.
If saying that a fed botlane is better than a fed toplane and a average midlaner however, it's not true.......in all but a few scenariors.
You said you've picked several more champions, namely Malzahar and Tristana, out of necessity rather than enjoyment. You have also flat-out said you didn't like Kayle, so what is the truth?
Kayle i do find boring after a few games, but malzahar and Tristana i think are alright, i just don't find them as much fun as Ashe or Syndra.
Heck if i could i´d play more Swain and Jax but my record with both of them is pretty awful <.<
Or, alternatively, that both Xin and Nasus, who are a diver and a juggernaut respectively, are both more capable of taking damage than Fizz, a squishy assassin.
That as well, but lucian could not have managed to kill all 3 at once and he didnt have any defenses at all which means he could not have taken damage from more than 1 without dying.
Which leaves the conclusion that evidently only 1 reached him.
... which includes double the number of champions you are trying to argue for, and measures them up against a bunch of champions who themselves did little damage. Again, why not simply directly count the damage of both Teemo and Veigar, and work from there? Why dilute it with so much irrelevant data?
I mean, since you wanted to argue for annie before i figured i might just throw them all in <.<
But admittedly veigar did less than i though while teem and Ezreal did more.
Teridax681 votesIts exactly the same as how 1% of the midlane players, the aurelion mains, had 56% winrate, sure it looks good on paper until you actually realize how few out of the total are actually doing it.
But it's not, though. Just because there are percentages in both cases does not make the situation identical. I'm still having trouble understanding how Aurelion Sol fits into this, since he is not the only instance of a niche champion having a high win rate from his mains.
Would you really be impressed if 200 outa 10000 had a 60% winrate using some item? A mere 2% that is?
I am not.
I mean, I would, especially for a champion, and Riot has acted on outliers like these in the past (e.g. Azir). I think it would also be more convincing if you didn't take GA's stats in isolation, and instead compared them to other items. As I have said, many extremely common items have similar pick rates on these champions, so simply looking at the face value of these stats and laughing them off because of how small they look is... not how statistics work.
Thefrostyviking1 votesBut it's not, though. Just because there are percentages in both cases does not make the situation identical. I'm still having trouble understanding how Aurelion Sol fits into this, since he is not the only instance of a niche champion having a high win rate from his mains.
Because its similar, if 3% outa 3000, 90 that is, have a 60% winrate on a champ, does that make the champ OP? Or does it mean that those 90 mains are just good at the champ?
With such a small group building GA out of the total amount, just 1-3% out at least 3000 up to 15000, i find it similar to how the Aurelion mains are making it look really good when in fact it's not that simple.
I mean, I would, especially for a champion, and Riot has acted on outliers like these in the past (e.g. Azir). I think it would also be more convincing if you didn't take GA's stats in isolation, and instead compared them to other items. As I have said, many extremely common items have similar pick rates on these champions, so simply looking at the face value of these stats and laughing them off because of how small they look is... not how statistics work.
Azir was kind of a special case due to how good he was in pro hands though.... like he kept getting nerfed ages after all the soloq midlaners washed their hands with him. Just because he was so strong in pro play.
And i honestly think somethings weird with the item statistics.....for some reason Caitlyn only has a 15% rate of buying infinty edge...and Syndra only buys Morello 16% of the time?
Do most games really end before a single item get's done? Or are there some new trendy builds about?
Either somethings terribly wrong with my logic or something about those item statistics is terribly off, those items should have a way higher popularity for but some reason they do not.
I think i´ll take a step back and reserve judgement until i can figure it out.
Thefrostyviking1 votesA champion snowballing and a champion carrying are two different things. Your montage does not show Syndra carrying, even though marksmen themselves are known to both snowball and carry the hardest.
If a fed champ killing people in 2 hits on fairly short cooldown cant carry then i don't know what can, i sure know that no marksmen can hope to stop something like that at least without a full build, along with a support and a tank helping-
So, by your own admission, you only started playing him when he was excessively strong.
That doesn't really say a lot, as he has always been excessively strong since he was reworked.
I started playing him ranked because i didn't have any other mage even remotely good at dealing with tanks.
This is also an admission that you specifically go for FotM champions and marksmen in Ranked, as itself evidenced by your two most consistent picks being marksmen.
Whatever works among the champs i play, i have never picked up a champ just because they were supposed to be strong, as i know that's pretty dang useless unless i actually know how to play the champ.
I needed a mage capable of killing the improved tanks and malzahar was the only option among those i play, Azir, cassio or Orianna might have worked but i am not really good at any of them, only somewhat decent with ori.
My criteria is really nothing more than it working and being something that i already play, and since i have a lot of champions with fairly high mastery on i am fairly confident in being versatile in my picks.
24 champs between mastery 5 to 7, and 6 mastery 5.
So 30 champs that i can choose quite freely from and have a confidence of success.....and yet only malzahar came up as a good midlane anti tank option x)
Except you are not yourself a pro player, and have in fact been going against the opinion of pros, as shown previously. Again, more players besides you have opinions, and those opinions can be valid too.
When exactly? You claimed that QTpie and dyrus stated things but i could not find them anywhere, so as far as i know the pro´s haven't said anything.
Which leaves boards people, people anywhere between bronze 5 to diamond 1 with the majority being silver and gold.
Sure, but the problem here is that you are both admitting to bias, yet also refusing to acknowledge that it may be coloring your argumentation here, and are instead accusing others en masse of being biased.
I do acknowledge my bias towards a few marksmen, and a few mages and a few divers, and a juggernaut.-.....and a support-
Mainly, the champs i play myself, which is why i know that those who are class specific biased like the "brusier" mains, absolutely go too far in their complaints. Their suggestions are great for their own class but a disaster for everyone else.
Many innovative ones looking to make melee work botlane would result in marksmen becoming nonviable and when asked on their thoughts about that all you´ll hear is the replies : "good" or "why should i care?"
you only started playing Ranked in an environment that was favorable to you, and chose champions that were known to be exceptionally successful due to excessive buffs. Again, this is not an accusation, as this is perfectly normal and valid behavior, it's just that you keep producing alternative explanations for your Ranked picks that don't hold up to scrutiny.
I mean, i don't really have any way to prove that the champs i chose weren't exceptionally powerful at the time i did chose to play them. And rather than calling malz OP i´d say that aside from Orianna and maybe 2 others he was the only solid midlane mage at the time.
The other mages i play,, ahri, lux, syndra, anivia, lissandra, Swain and vel koz were hella hard to influence a game with since games always resulted in both sides competing in who could kill the enemy tank first and still be useful.
...Actually i could have played Anivia instead, which i actually did later as well, but still before malz got nerfed if i recall.
Which is why she has such a low win rate... oh wait.
I mean, she sits just below 49%, and is directly countered by all the topmost marksmen, all the engage supports and many other popular picks. Only reason she still works is probably because her ulti lets her team do start fights in her favor.
So you picked her up when she was overbuffed, is what you're saying?
She wasn't considered OP anymore at that point i think, strong but not OP, pretty sure i picked her because i knew her for it as i knew she wouldn't be banned anymore but i´d still get strong enough to carry if i won my lane.
Good to know you acknowledge that marksmen are overtuned.
That was the ardent patch, malzahar has been nerfed since then, as have the marksmen.
Except, as you yourself have just said, you have consistently gone for champions that were exceptionally strong at the time you picked them, so you not picking literally every overpowered champion does not detract from that. Moreover, you claiming to "know your snowball" is inconsistent with your claims here. In the end, no matter how you put it, your most consistent picks were marksmen, and as you yourself have said, you go for what is most successful.
I pick whatever i need to from among the champs i play to succeed x)
Malzahar was or rather is my only mage good at dealing with tanks, which is why i didnt play him until a tank meta hit.
And i played Syndra one or two games at least every season except one i think.
Tristana was my main choice as the only marksman capable of surviving assassins among the ones i played, Xayah didnt exist back then-
Overall i have a few champs i prefer to play, but if i know i won't succeed with them then i won't really hesitate much to switch to another of those i play if i know that the other option has a much better chance of succeeding.
I stopped being stubborn in season 6 about champ picks when i lost 6 ranked games in a row on Syndra x)
Teridax681 votesIf a fed champ killing people in 2 hits on fairly short cooldown cant carry then i don't know what can
How many people, exactly? Didn't you say not too long ago that Lucian could easily kill two fed champions consecutively in a couple seconds? In the end, you're not using the video to support your point here either, which to me suggests it did not, in fact, show Syndra's carry potential.
That doesn't really say a lot, as he has always been excessively strong since he was reworked.
But it does, because Malzahar was not always in his reworked state, and was terrible beforehand. Effectively, he only came into your radar once he was strong enough for it.
I started playing him ranked because i didn't have any other mage even remotely good at dealing with tanks.
Except Malzahar isn't the best tank-buster mage out there, and is picked more for his ability to delete squishies and survive assassins than for his ability to deal with tanks. Your explanation isn't holding up.
i have never picked up a champ just because they were supposed to be strong
So why say the contrary? This is also completed by your Ranked picks, which almost exactly reflect trends in champion balance over the past few seasons.
24 champs between mastery 5 to 7, and 6 mastery 5.
None of which seem to be in your Ranked roster more consistently than Ashe and Tristana.
So 30 champs that i can choose quite freely from and have a confidence of success.....and yet only malzahar came up as a good midlane anti tank option x)
Which, as you just put it, is rather hard to believe. x)
When exactly? You claimed that QTpie and dyrus stated things but i could not find them anywhere, so as far as i know the pro´s haven't said anything.
Indeed, you did not find them, and as you have just recently admitted to not wanting to do the work of counting subreddits properly either, I do think the onus is still on you to do the research I have directed you towards. Moreover, these are but two out of many pro players, none of which you have consistently factored in here. In general, the only opinion you have chosen to take into account is your own, with the rest of the Boards or even Reddit not factoring in either. Even a site like op.gg suddenly stops making sense when it doesn't agree with you. Do you have any frame of reference besides yourself with which to support your claims?
I do acknowledge my bias towards a few marksmen,
Which is what has just been said, but in addition, the problem is that you are not acknowleding how this might be affecting your judgment at large, particularly when it comes to personal anecdotes, opinions and conjectures you have used at length to try to justify your own claims.
I mean, i don't really have any way to prove that the champs i chose weren't exceptionally powerful at the time i did chose to play them.
Okay, and admitting that is a good start. Because of that, though, you can therefore not really argue to the contrary either, as evidence does show those champions were notably strong at the time you picked them.
The other mages i play,, ahri, lux, syndra, anivia, lissandra, Swain and vel koz were hella hard to influence a game with since games always resulted in both sides competing in who could kill the enemy tank first and still be useful.
So you're saying mages have a hard time influencing games, then?
I mean, she sits just below 49%
... with a >9% pick rate. How is this bad again?
She wasn't considered OP anymore at that point i think
... you think, and only in relation to other marksmen. Prior discussion has shown that this is not a sufficient argument, as marksmen are balanced in isolation in bot lane.
That was the ardent patch, malzahar has been nerfed since then, as have the marksmen.
Where and when have marksmen been nerfed? You have also said as much for marksmen even beyond the Ardent patch.
Overall i have a few champs i prefer to play, but if i know i won't succeed with them then i won't really hesitate much to switch to another of those i play if i know that the other option has a much better chance of succeeding.
Okay, but that's my point: you're picking champions that succeed over champions you personally enjoy playing. Whether or not you want to admit this again, your Ranked stats shows you heavily favor marksmen and FotM picks, and no amount of "explanation" hides this fact. Again, not a criticism, as this is a valid approach to playing Ranked, but it does go against your prior established credentials, and it is strange that you would continue to provide excuses for your picks when you really have no need to justify yourself.
Thefrostyviking1 votesHow many people, exactly? Didn't you say not too long ago that Lucian could easily kill two fed champions consecutively in a couple seconds? In the end, you're not using the video to support your point here either, which to me suggests it did not, in fact, show Syndra's carry potential.
Wait what?
What i said was that a Syndra that fed can easily delete enemy targets, which the video showed, and that is given Lucians damage most likely how he carried as well.
That video clearly showed that a fed Syndra can easily delete anything that isnt a full blown tank, which clearly demonstrates her ability to carry in the same manner that a even more fed lucian did in OP's game.
But it does, because Malzahar was not always in his reworked state, and was terrible beforehand. Effectively, he only came into your radar once he was strong enough for it.
He was far from terrible? O_O
He was the ultimate counter towards Yasuo and katarina, as well as Zed and a good one against fizz.
....really any target with less range than him was basically a free win for him, he only lost more because lategame was more of a thing back then.
That is why he got reworked in the first place......which ironically made him weaker in lane but stronger later.
Except Malzahar isn't the best tank-buster mage out there, and is picked more for his ability to delete squishies and survive assassins than for his ability to deal with tanks. Your explanation isn't holding up.
He is though? Or rather was, there was no mage with better anti tank capabilities other than malzahar and his E+deathfire grasp+liandry.
And his ulti had like a potential of 45% max health damage before magic resistance, is no mage that can match that.
Back when voidlings didn't die instantly they were also great for it.
So why say the contrary? This is also completed by your Ranked picks, which almost exactly reflect trends in champion balance over the past few seasons.
I picked them as long as they filled at least 2 criteria.
The first being that i already knew how to play them, the second being that they were able to impact games successfully if played well.
Even if a champ was top tier freelo i wouldn't pick them unless i actually knew how to play said champ.
None of which seem to be in your Ranked roster more consistently than Ashe and Tristana.
Because aside from Ashe and tristana the only other marksmen i play are MF and Caitlyn, and i didn't pick MF up until sometime just before the assassin update, as even back then it was a carry meta with no tanks to speak of.
I also didn't start seriously playing caitlyn until season 5 in normals, which is reflected in how i bought her to ranked in season 6, but she became much too useless when the entire "ADCin2k17" thing started....which is about when MF became a choice pick.
Trist also wasn't meta under any season i played before season 7, and then it was like halfway through the botrk meta she became a thing.
Which, as you just put it, is rather hard to believe. x)
Not really if you think about it, the only mages that are really good at using liandry are malzahar, cassiopeia and Anivia.
But as i am pretty mediocre at cassiopeia and the main tanks i wanted to counter were zac and sejani, both having an easy time against anivia, the obvious choice then becomes malzahar.
That and he doesn't need as much time to scale, games where already shortening back then despite being a tank meta so anivia was a bit too slow.
Indeed, you did not find them, and as you have just recently admitted to not wanting to do the work of counting subreddits properly either, I do think the onus is still on you to do the research I have directed you towards. Moreover, these are but two out of many pro players, none of which you have consistently factored in here. In general, the only opinion you have chosen to take into account is your own, with the rest of the Boards or even Reddit not factoring in either. Even a site like op.gg suddenly stops making sense when it doesn't agree with you. Do you have any frame of reference besides yourself with which to support your claims?
When i don't check i admit to not doing it, i did indeed check both Dyrus and QTpie's youtubes for any kind of discussion content but i couldn't find anything´.
And going through over anything between 30-50 videos each between 10-20 minutes long for a possible 5 minutes speech is far more time consuming than any sane person should be willing to invest into a hobby.
I´d need several hours at least to go through each video in detail, which is way more than i could ever care to do.
Which is what has just been said, but in addition, the problem is that you are not acknowleding how this might be affecting your judgment at large, particularly when it comes to personal anecdotes, opinions and conjectures you have used at length to try to justify your own claims.
Conjectures with statistics to prove they are possible, like a evelynn jungle carrying, like a midlane mage carrying when insanely fed and whatnot more.
Okay, and admitting that is a good start. Because of that, though, you can therefore not really argue to the contrary either, as evidence does show those champions were notably strong at the time you picked them.
Only malzahar was really strong when i bought him into ranked, Syndra was below the top mages of her time at the point i picked her in season 6.
Tristana? Was only OP in season 7 post botrk buffs but mainly post static buffs, and i didn't play her at all under that time......actually didn't play botlane at all post tank buffs.
So you're saying mages have a hard time influencing games, then?
Context, i was writing in past tense, as in something that was a thing before, not now, mages made a full recovery in patch 7.22.
... with a >9% pick rate. How is this bad again?
And she has among the lowest if not the lowest average damage done of any marksman, usually dies the most as well and has little kills despite being a supposed marksman meta if the critics are to be believed.
Yet all Ashe does is kill participation, which suggests she is played as a ult bot which matches with my own experiences.....and i find that rather sad as i think its quite the boring style.
... you think, and only in relation to other marksmen. Prior discussion has shown that this is not a sufficient argument, as marksmen are balanced in isolation in bot lane.
Talking about Syndra there, and she was nerfed back to being just below the top mages in terms of winrate and pickrates.
Where and when have marksmen been nerfed? You have also said as much for marksmen even beyond the Ardent patch.
The cut towards ardent censer and supports were the nerfs towards marksmen, as were the reductions in base armor and magic resistance.
Okay, but that's my point: you're picking champions that succeed over champions you personally enjoy playing. Whether or not you want to admit this again, your Ranked stats shows you heavily favor marksmen and FotM picks, and no amount of "explanation" hides this fact. Again, not a criticism, as this is a valid approach to playing Ranked, but it does go against your prior established credentials, and it is strange that you would continue to provide excuses for your picks when you really have no need to justify yourself.
Except i also played champs that were not FotM and still succeeded, but i did indeed main malzahar midlane from the start of the tank patch until the ardent censer nerfs in which malzahar saw a sharp rise in ban and pickrate.
At which point i went to play Anivia for my final 10 games, which should be reflected on my scores.
Ashe was only briefly Fotm for a time under season 6, but only for a short time until nerfed. 12 games on her despite that under season 7 when most would argue that she was in fact bad.
Trist i did indeed play 13 times, mainly just after the botrk patch as assassins were still hella strong but even then she was not top tier until others got nerfed.
Anivia? Kayle?Syndra? Jax? None of them were ever Fotm under season 7 as far as i recall, and i still played them well enough.
Then Sona because she was the only support i knew how to play x)
So 3 "strong" picks of season 7 and the rest were not, although i did have more than half my games on one of those three picks.
But mainly because no other mage did enough damage or scaled quick enough to have any impact back then except malzahar.
Teridax681 votesAnd of course the divers and assasins would build it x) They all go lethality right now which means they blow up after killing 1 guy.
Assassins have built-in escapes, and only a select few divers go for Lethality builds, fewer than those who pick GA. Even if literally all of these champions built nothing but Lethality and all blew up after one kill, that would still not dismiss the fact that GA is a powerful item. Powerful enough, in fact, to guarantee the safety of an otherwise totally squishy champion, let's say, a marksman, without making them sacrifice any real amount of damage.
Skirmishers.....don't as far as i recall, at least Jax and Irelia don't, Fiora does but she might be the odd one out.
Fiora does, Jax does, Irelia does, Yi does, Yasuo does, Riven does, Tryndamere does. Literally every single skirmisher in the game, plus Irelia (she's a diver, not a skirmisher), builds GA. Notice as well how I picked two separate sources for each individual champion, and how they support each other's data. Substantiating claims in this way makes for much more solid ground in this kind of debate.
And the reason marksmen do not is because, as i mentioned, if you actually die while using it then chances are you are 100% boned anyway. You don't have the defensive tools of a skirmisher or mobility of an assassin to get yourself to safety once revived.
Wait, so do skirmishers and assassins have survivability or do they not? I'm confused here, because this above statement is completely inconsistent with the one stating these same champions "blow up after killing 1 guy". Also worth noting is that GA was specifically designed for marksmen, and was in fact rushed by them in the few weeks following its rework. The problem isn't that GA is bad on marksmen (it's awesome on marksmen, it's been their go-to defensive pick for years), but that they currently have defensive options that are just as good, if not even better.
Which results in mercurial and maw being more popular most of the time when not playing against lethality users.
Mercurial and Maw have a 1.76% and 2.06% pick rate, respectively, far less than GA. Vayne is the only marksman to consistently build Mercurial, and few marksmen currently build Maw reliably, with many marksmen in fact favoring a Lethality + GA combo. Some even manage to get away with not buying GA at all, and instead doing pretty well with even more extreme damage builds.
And i actually checked the game in detail, turns out OP is a lvl 28, game was a normal and Lucian was a level 21 smurf and marksman main.
12 straight wins on Lucian and 7 on caitlyn, each game a crushing victory, tells me that much.
No wonder OP didn't stand a chance, Lucian was in all likeliness a plati+ smurf.
I knew something was odd with him getting so fed x)
If you had checked the game in detail, you would also have noticed that Lucian was not the only smurf in that game, and that the Xin himself is a smurf. Moreover, Lucian's team featured genuinely unranked players, and Nasus's team also had a Gold player while the rest were unranked (Lucian's team, by contrast, had one silver player). For sure Lucian was a smurf, but he wasn't the only smurf, and matchmaking on both ends was borked in many more ways. In the end, this doesn't take away from the fact that Nasus's team lost despite having a very clear lead everywhere other than bot lane, and that this is a common occurrence beyond just this game, and so is irrespective of smurfs.
Thefrostyviking1 votesAssassins have built-in escapes, and only a select few divers go for Lethality builds, fewer than those who pick GA. Even if literally all of these champions built nothing but Lethality and all blew up after one kill, that would still not dismiss the fact that GA is a powerful item.
You do realize that GA only gives like...40 AD?
Compare that to say a 
or a zeal item the loss in damage is actually substantial.....
And it does not guarantee safety, rather it just counters lethality, that's literally all it does well.
Again, if some enemy champ actually has the ability to consistently dive on you then a GA is about as useful as a bathtub in the middle of a hallway.
Sure you might clean yourself, but you´ll be pretty exposed.....
GA's passive is literally only useful in about 2 different scenario's, 1 being if a enemy assassin or mage like annie is able to bypass your team every 4-5 minutes and nuke your ass.
The second would be if they have some high CD wombo combo and no ability do do anything after it's done.
Otherwise you´ll just drop dead right after anyway, which is pretty useless.
Ironically i believe that GA is a pretty good snowball item on some divers and skirmishers...and assassins, when you have already finished your core items, you can suicide attack to wreck a portion of the enemy team forcing them to drop you into GA while your team move's up on them.
It would explain why an assassin like Zed with 49% winrate has a 60% winrate with builds including GA, because nearly all the Zed´s winning are using it.
Fiora does, Jax does, Irelia does, Yi does, Yasuo does, Riven does, Tryndamere does. Literally every single skirmisher in the game, plus Irelia (she's a diver, not a skirmisher), builds GA. Notice as well how I picked two separate sources for each individual champion, and how they support each other's data. Substantiating claims in this way makes for much more solid ground in this kind of debate.
And for heavens sake, do you realize how ignorant linking those are?
Each and every one of these champs have at most 3-4% build-rate for GA, over a sample size of 3000-7000 games..
Am i supposed to be impressed that 2% outa 3000, in other words, 60 outa 3000 won using GA? You seriously need check the numbers at bit more closely.
Its like how Aurelion had a 1,3% pickrate and a 56% winrate for the longest time, the only people playing him were dedicated mains, everyone knew he was not OP at the time. So no one said a word about his 56% winrate.
60 outa 3000, so very not impressive.
Wait, so do skirmishers and assassins have survivability or do they not? I'm confused here, because this above statement is completely inconsistent with the one stating these same champions "blow up after killing 1 guy". Also worth noting is that GA was specifically designed for marksmen, and was in fact rushed by them in the few weeks following its rework. The problem isn't that GA is bad on marksmen (it's awesome on marksmen, it's been their go-to defensive pick for years), but that they currently have defensive options that are just as good, if not even better.
Ah i was a bit unclear, mainly skirmishers like say Jax or Tryndamere do, some divers like wukong also do but the rest do not as much.
A zed for instance will just blow up not really doing anything if dropped into GA.
And only boosted apes straight up rushed GA, it was a shitty build and it had awful winrates, any sane marksman player built it at it's earliest as a third item if absolutely needed. Otherwise 4-5th was definitely preferred.
And what equally good or better defensive options? DD which gives you a short moment of time? Phantom which reduces damage taken from the target you are currently attacking by 12%.
I can tell you right now, very rarely will these be the factors that save you, rather its usually because they give the support the second they need to react which causes the marksman to live.
And it's pretty fair that too, have you seen how say wukong, j4 or some Talons play? They just appear suddenly, drop their combo in a hearbeat and someone dies before they can even flash if said person don't have barriers and damage reductions stacked on them.
Mercurial and Maw have a 1.76% and 2.06% pick rate, respectively, far less than GA. Vayne is the only marksman to consistently build Mercurial, and few marksmen currently build Maw reliably, with many marksmen in fact favoring a Lethality + GA combo. Some even manage to get away with not buying GA at all, and instead doing pretty well with even more extreme damage builds.
Please don't check overall, that is terribly misleading.
And marksmen happen to favor whichever items suits their needs at the time, if so many build GA its either because they play against lethality or because they are snowballing and want to ensure they won't get shutdown for a single mistake.
If you had checked the game in detail, you would also have noticed that Lucian was not the only smurf in that game, and that the Xin himself is a smurf. Moreover, Lucian's team featured genuinely unranked players, and Nasus's team also had a Gold player while the rest were unranked (Lucian's team, by contrast, had one silver player). For sure Lucian was a smurf, but he wasn't the only smurf, and matchmaking on both ends was borked in many more ways. In the end, this doesn't take away from the fact that Nasus's team lost despite having a very clear lead everywhere other than bot lane, and that this is a common occurrence beyond just this game, and so is irrespective of smurfs.
First up, all bet's are off when smurfs are involved in a basically unranked game, secondly, given Lucian's performance i´d honestly guess he´s a plati + smurf while Xin was a gold+.
A high elo jungler would never only have that much when playing against lower people, something proven by the NA streamer NB3 who frequently smurfs as far as i know.
Do you think it's realistically possible for a gold 3~ to beat a plati 3 in a one on one on their main champs?
That's basically what went down there, except Lucian came up with a 3-6 k gold lead over Xin from a very early point.
And it's not so common to lose just because enemy bot was strong, what is common, is to lose because they went like 20,0,0 or 12,2,10 while your own botlane when 2,10,3 and is down 150 CS.
You´ll never find a botlane carrying a team that's lost unless their gold lead is so huge they could fund 1-2 other champs with all their extra gold.
Teridax681 votesYou do realize that GA only gives like...40 AD?
40 AD is significant, particularly when it gets multiplied by crit. Duskblade gives "only" 55 AD and is a pure offensive item. 40 AD on top of an incredibly strong passive, plus some armor, is very good.
Compare that to say a
Not every marksman builds Essence Reaver, and most marksmen have enough room in their builds for two Zeal items and a defensive item, in addition to essentials like IE and boots.
And it does not guarantee safety, rather it just counters lethality, that's literally all it does well.
GA was popular on marksmen way before Lethality even existed. Again, it was the staple go-to defensive item for marksmen up until Season 6, where they started getting more and stronger defensive options to compete.
Again, if some enemy champ actually has the ability to consistently dive on you then a GA is about as useful as a bathtub in the middle of a hallway.
If that champion has cooldowns or you have enough damage to finish them off, not really, no. Again, all of this hypothetical reasoning on your part, when in practice GA is in fact quite popular, and even quite strong.
And for heavens sake, do you realize how ignorant linking those are?
Each and every one of these champs have at most 3-4% build-rate for GA, over a sample size of 3000-7000 games..
Essential items like Long Sword, Tiamat, boots, etc. also have pick rates around 2% in those listed builds, so the issue here is more that you're simply not interpreting statistics correctly. As you can see by looking at both of the sources I listed, GA is built consistently, but since games have a limited duration and usually end before players are at full build, GA ends up not being built in some games, even if those champions were indeed building towards them.
Its like how Aurelion had a 1,3% pickrate and a 56% winrate for the longest time, the only people playing him were dedicated mains, everyone knew he was not OP at the time. So no one said a word about his 56% winrate.
Please explain how this relates to the subject of item statistics.
Ah i was a bit unclear, mainly skirmishers like say Jax or Tryndamere do, some divers like wukong also do but the rest do not as much.
Okay, so first off, you said exactly this:
Skirmishers.....don't as far as i recall, at least Jax and Irelia don't, Fiora does but she might be the odd one out.
So you weren't "unclear", you were in fact very clear on your opinion that skirmishers did not, in fact, build GA, you're just backtracking now because I provided statistical evidence proving you exactly wrong. Moreover, many more divers besides Wukong pick GA, and you are welcome to check using the sources I have provided you.
And only boosted apes straight up rushed GA, it was a shitty build and it had awful winrates, any sane marksman player built it at it's earliest as a third item if absolutely needed. Otherwise 4-5th was definitely preferred.
Its win rate was, as I recall, quite good, and as I have shown you, still is. It's now moved to later slots (which, as you can imagine, lowers its statistical pick rate due to build order), but is nonetheless still a popular and powerful item.
And what equally good or better defensive options? DD which gives you a short moment of time? Phantom which reduces damage taken from the target you are currently attacking by 12%.
Yes, actually, both of those items are notoriously powerful, among many others, and for a long time were responsible for marksmen like Draven and Graves becoming legitimately tanky. Which AP defensive items do you suggest are as strong, or stronger?
I can tell you right now, very rarely will these be the factors that save you, rather its usually because they give the support the second they need to react which causes the marksman to live.
The rise of solo marksmen after the release of those items suggests otherwise, and while I agree that supports have tremendous save potential, that simply adds on top of the very large amount of personal survivability at the disposal of marksmen.
And it's pretty fair that too, have you seen how say wukong, j4 or some Talons play? They just appear suddenly, drop their combo in a hearbeat and someone dies before they can even flash if said person don't have barriers and damage reductions stacked on them.
Their "combo" includes an ultimate, and assassins like Talon are legitimately designed to output burst. Perhaps this burst should be reduced across the board, but none of this should ever justify marksmen becoming a durable class or a bursty class.
Please don't check overall, that is terribly misleading.
Wait, so checking these stats overstates the pick rate of GA, which you claim to be unpopular, but understates the pick rate of Maw and Mercurial? Do you have any data to support that claim? Because from what I'm seeing, and what I've linked, it seems like GA is substantially more popular than Maw and Mercurial combined, and that neither of the latter two items are picked as defensive staples.
And marksmen happen to favor whichever items suits their needs at the time, if so many build GA its either because they play against lethality or because they are snowballing and want to ensure they won't get shutdown for a single mistake.
Sure, but GA itself has been picked consistently by marksmen way before Lethality was even a thing, so it's not just a situational pick. Lucian rushing it in the above match was definitely a sign that he got more out of it sooner than most, but as per my original point, he was able to do so, and counter the burst of many of his opponents, without sacrificing any amount of his damage lead. This is not something that can really happen out of bot lane.
First up, all bet's are off when smurfs are involved in a basically unranked game, secondly, given Lucian's performance i´d honestly guess he´s a plati + smurf while Xin was a gold+.
I don't think the division of either player can really be accurately assumed here, and as you said, "all bets are off", so that kind of assumption should not even be possible. Even with that said, however, as mentioned several times before here, this is not a rare occurrence, and does not depend on smurfs. There are many, many more stories of bot lane snowballing out of control and determining the outcome of an entire match, no matter how successful the other lanes were, and this is a sentiment corroborated across multiple platforms, and across all elos. By contrast, fewer to no stories repeat the same experience with top, mid or jungle snowballing in a similar fashion. Regardless of the specifics of this particular match, it is indeed illustrative of a much larger problem with the current state of the game and its snowballing.
Thefrostyviking1 votes40 AD is significant, particularly when it gets multiplied by crit. Duskblade gives "only" 55 AD and is a pure offensive item. 40 AD on top of an incredibly strong passive, plus some armor, is very good.
That passive is hot garbage x)
Dusbblade comes with a passive that gives a massive damage boost if procced,
Not every marksman builds Essence Reaver, and most marksmen have enough room in their builds for two Zeal items and a defensive item, in addition to essentials like IE and boots.
Many marksmen want to build ER but it's strategically unsound since you´ll kinda end up dying instantly if you skimp on defenses.
GA was popular on marksmen way before Lethality even existed. Again, it was the staple go-to defensive item for marksmen up until Season 6, where they started getting more and stronger defensive options to compete.
And assassins&mages were way stronger back before reworks happened in many instances.
Many mages in particular have gotten nerfed, as have their items, dying by getting sniped from the edge of your screen after 2-3 hits is much more uncommon.
Stuff like old Rengar and Hecarim are also gone in the sense that damage is lost.
If that champion has cooldowns or you have enough damage to finish them off, not really, no. Again, all of this hypothetical reasoning on your part, when in practice GA is in fact quite popular, and even quite strong.
No, not really, not against anything besides lethality anyway.
While it's true that popular items like IE only somehow have 15% popularity on Caitlyn (wait what?), it's still true that only 60 outa 3000 would build it in many cases.
The ones that get that far are either snowballing or have reached lategame, which would explain the winrates.
Essential items like Long Sword, Tiamat, boots, etc. also have pick rates around 2% in those listed builds, so the issue here is more that you're simply not interpreting statistics correctly. As you can see by looking at both of the sources I listed, GA is built consistently, but since games have a limited duration and usually end before players are at full build, GA ends up not being built in some games, even if those champions were indeed building towards them.
We only do know that about 60 outa 3000 were building getting the item though, i can't make any other judgement other than it being a rater pitifully small one.
The fact that more people do not build is probably indicates that it's not popular before you have finished at least 3 other items, or more probably.
Please explain how this relates to the subject of item statistics.
Small pickrate can make the winrates look very good.
Okay, so first off, you said exactly this: So you weren't "unclear", you were in fact very clear on your opinion that skirmishers did not, in fact, build GA, you're just backtracking now because I provided statistical evidence proving you exactly wrong. Moreover, many more divers besides Wukong pick GA, and you are welcome to check using the sources I have provided you.
I did check, and the only conclusive thing i found was that about 60 outa 3000 would build it, or even less than that number in most cases.
The reason the item appears to have such good winrates is most likely because it's used by people when they snowball. That would explain why more people aren't getting and winning with it despite high winrates.
Its win rate was, as I recall, quite good, and as I have shown you, still is. It's now moved to later slots (which, as you can imagine, lowers its statistical pick rate due to build order), but is nonetheless still a popular and powerful item.
No it was really not good, i was playing a lot of AD carry at the time, it was pretty dang awful on everything besides Draven, and even on him it was subpar.
Winrates are irrelevant when they have a 1-2% pickate, for something to be certainly OP it need to have both win and pickrates.
Otherwise as proven by some champs like aurelion reaching 56% winrate, it's just mains and oddballs winning a lot. If the majority were to try and do the same the winrates would drop like a rock.
Yes, actually, both of those items are notoriously powerful, among many others, and for a long time were responsible for marksmen like Draven and Graves becoming legitimately tanky. Which AP defensive items do you suggest are as strong, or stronger?
oh for crying out loud.
Graves.Is.Not.A.Marksman.
https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses
For your perusal.
Draven doesn't get tanky, he just stacks AD&crit with DD on the side and goes to 2 shots anything he hits while healing absurd amounts.
It's how he works, whenever he does work.
Graves was OP because of his base stats and E, when those got nerfed he dropped outa the meta faster than Azir.
The rise of olo marksmen after the release of those items suggests otherwise, and while I agree that supports have tremendous save potential, that simply adds on top of the very large amount of personal survivability at the disposal of marksmen.
Solo what? no such thing exists ._.
Vayne toplane with 43% winrate? Lucian mid with 44%? No one was impressed with those.
They were exactly like MF support, specific counterpicks, in the favored matchups they are are great but they suck extremely hard against pretty much everything else.
Their "combo" includes an ultimate, and assassins like Talon are legitimately designed to output burst. Perhaps this burst should be reduced across the board, but none of this should ever justify marksmen becoming a durable class or a bursty class.
Well to some point i do agree, static shiv is a pretty absurd item for marksmen.,.....it offers a burst that should not be there.
But durable they are not, have never been and will never be....except back under the steraks gage meta.
Wait, so checking these stats overstates the pick rate of GA, which you claim to be unpopular, but understates the pick rate of Maw and Mercurial? Do you have any data to support that claim? Because from what I'm seeing, and what I've linked, it seems like GA is substantially more popular than Maw and Mercurial combined, and that neither of the latter two items are picked as defensive staples.
well admittedly my info was old, i checked in detail last like 2 weeks ago......
But from what i found checking on OP.GG then quicksilver sash is in fact more popular on Cait,ashe,Vayne and Xayah.
While GA is either equal or ahead on a few others like varus, Mf and Twitch.
´Both Items are very popular if anything.
Sure, but GA itself has been picked consistently by marksmen way before Lethality was even a thing, so it's not just a situational pick. Lucian rushing it in the above match was definitely a sign that he got more out of it sooner than most, but as per my original point, he was able to do so, and counter the burst of many of his opponents, without sacrificing any amount of his damage lead. This is not something that can really happen out of bot lane.
Dude you need to check again, GA was literally the last item Lucian got, and mercurial was just before that......which means that he felt safe enough the entire game to skip on defenses almost entirely.
I don't think the division of either player can really be accurately assumed here, and as you said, "all bets are off", so that kind of assumption should not even be possible. Even with that said, however, as mentioned several times before here, this is not a rare occurrence, and does not depend on smurfs. There are many, many more stories of bot lane snowballing out of control and determining the outcome of an entire match, no matter how successful the other lanes were, and this is a sentiment corroborated across multiple platforms, and across all elos. By contrast, fewer to no stories repeat the same experience with top, mid or jungle snowballing in a similar fashion. Regardless of the specifics of this particular match, it is indeed illustrative of a much larger problem with the current state of the game and its snowballing.
I actually went to the effort to double check, Fizz was gold and thresh was silver, OP and the rest were unranked and/or below level 30.
Xin was most likely not a smurf while Lucian was one 100%.
And marksmen are the least represented role across all platforms as well.....mainly boards and reddit.
There are hardly any actual marksman only mains after all.....role is a bit too boring so i honestly expect that most do like and take breaks playing jungle,mid or toplane a lot depending on our fancy.
Even under the lethality meta the main people complaining about it were mages and tanks, marksmen even then were far and few between, so naturally no unified voice exists and stories aren't shared.
All we can conclude by seeing all these stories on the boards that have been appearing ever since.....well i don't know, i only started back in season 3.
But they were around back then too.
People have always hated the marksmen and the supports, they have always gone online to flame about them, while a handful, usually 1 to 10 ratios, have argued back.
The rest of the botlane players? Probably too busy actually playing the game to sit on the boards x)
Even under the lethality meta.
Thefrostyviking1 votesPlease explain how this correlates in any way to the state of bot lane in reality, and how routinely it snowballs in practice. Are you implying players outside of bot lane are careless?
They can afford to be much more careless since their towers take like half the damage.
So we agree, then, that marksmen are imbalanced.
I kinda realized but riot hasn't figured a way to make a balanced marksman work outside botlane consistently, so they have to make them have some manner of exclusive job to keep them in the game.
... which implies that it isn't if there isn't a marksman on both teams. Again, it seems you agree that marksmen aren't balanced, but you don't seem comfortable with stating it outright.
Riot's stated ideal is that all classes should be viable and played......and evidently they also want all classes to be played too.
Marksmen+supports and tanks are kept around by being the only way to restrain the other it seems.
Teridax681 votesAll other classes can be described that homogeneously if you really want to?....
Tanks, specialists in soaking up damage with massive healthbars and other durability reinforcing abilties while bringing a lot off CC, subclasses are engage tanks and peel tanks.
Okay, but all of this is far less homogeneous than just "ranged autoattack damage-dealer", particularly since you described multiple different contributions and subclasses, on top of only a very general notion of "durability reinforcing abilities".
Fighters, less durable melee than tanks but more damage instead, divided between the immobile but powerful juggernauts and the more mobile but less durable divers.
This definition is predicated upon the definition of tanks, which already gives it much more complexity, and additionally establishes many nuanced differences, along with distinct subclasses. Yet again, the definition of how these fighters actually fight is left vague, whereas the description of how marksmen fight is quite well-defined.
Slayers, damage oriented melee that quickly kill their chosen targets, split between the highly mobile and burst oriented assassins and the less mobile and somewhat more DPS oriented skirmishers who usually posses a powerful defensive ability instead of a escape.
Again, multiple subclasses here, only vague general descriptions, no specific description of their mode of damage output. There is very little homogeneity to the class you are describing.
Mages, there are burst mages, battle and artillery, burst focus on killing someone in a sudden burst of attacks, battle mages are kinda like juggernauts but less durable and a more range.
Artillery mages focus on harassing enemies from afar, slowly whittling them down.
Right off the bat, you cite three totally different subclasses, with comparisons to other classes as well. How exactly is this a homogeneous description?
Marksmen are similar in how they deal their damage because they are all expected to do the same job, high DPS to anything they attack.
Okay, so first off that quote you produced is a complete fabrication, as I have never in any post stated that "all marksmen are the same". This is a straw man, and as we are the only two people in this exchange at this point, I'm not quite sure who you're trying to convince.
Second, what I just described is something you haven't contradicted in any way, and have in fact confirmed yourself: marksmen all deal the vast majority of their damage via autoattacks, a tremendously homogeneous mechanic. Some marksmen may have different ranges and target specialties, but ultimately this is what their contribution boils down to.
Riots thoughts.
Whose thoughts? Where? Considering how the quote immediately preceding this was a complete misquote, I'm not ready to take your word on this either, particularly since I myself have closely followed discussion on marksmen.
How long have you played this game? O_O
Accusing me of being inexperienced with the game when pressed to provide evidence is not a particularly mature way of handling conversation. To answer that question, I've been playing since Preseason 3, and have indeed seen LCS matches with those champions, though those matches have showed that it is in fact bot lane that tends to consistently carry the hardest, even in the face of the fed champions you have mentioned. Again, do you have any evidence to support your point?
Proximity to dragon you mean? x)
That, plus many other cited factors, yes.
And again, without outside influence and a gap in skill the snowballing just does not happen.
You are the only person to claim this. You have repeated this statement multiple times, even though you have also contradicted yourself even more often by yourself citing factors that rendered bot lane inherently more snowbally. Why insist upon the contrary here?
Contradicted by the widespread opinion? The widespread opinion currently is that supports, mainly tank ones, deal too much damage. And that Riot don't know how to balance supports apparently x)
How is this in any way relevant to what is being discussed? The point being made is that your claim that bot lane "doesn't move on its own" is totally unsupported by larger opinion and the game at large. Why dodge the point?
Checked a big thread on reddit and didn't anything about botlane at all on the frontpage.
So... checking one thread on one online community equals bot lane never being discussed at all? Okay then.
That's not what i wrote!
I wrote that other options were preferred if it was possible to use them to any good effect, but usually they did not work so you had to take GA, since it was the only option with even a small chance of working.
So that is, in fact, what you wrote. As stated before, your framing of GA as the least crap of options is entirely equivalent to it being better than all of the competition. Since you have also stated that competitor items were also strong in their own right, the latter is also more likely to be true. You are trying to backtrack here in a manner that contradicts what you have said only a few posts ago.
Amateur trying to make sense of statistics that evidently make no sense at all will not yield any kind of sensible results.
Perhaps, but then why stop at those statistics? They make no sense to you, but only because they contradict your beliefs. When op.gg has stats that seem to further your own opinions, however, you list them on here readily, including in total isolation relative to all other data and evidence. The manner in which you are using and interpreting data here isn't consistent, and I do think demonstrates a degree of confirmation bias.
Teridax681 votesThey can afford to be much more careless since their towers take like half the damage.
So you are indeed trying to say that players outside of bot lane are careless, then. Good to know.
I kinda realized but riot hasn't figured a way to make a balanced marksman work outside botlane consistently, so they have to make them have some manner of exclusive job to keep them in the game.
So, again, this is you confirming on your end that marksmen are imbalanced. QED.
Riot's stated ideal is that all classes should be viable and played......and evidently they also want all classes to be played too.
Marksmen+supports and tanks are kept around by being the only way to restrain the other it seems.
So three classes are being kept to hold another three in check? How does that make sense?
It's also worth mentioning that viable and played =/= mandatory. Marksmen are mandatory, which is not good, and the larger consensus is that that shouldn't be the case, even if they should still be viable and played. Is that too much to ask?
Teridax681 votesI never even once said they went alone, i always based my assumptions that they started running in at the same time.
You repeatedly said Fizz went after Xin, and this is only in the last scenario you've come up with. You are contradicting yourself here.
He had 90% at the time, with 4 yasuo games absolutely smashed and 1 lost-
4:1 win rate is 90% now? What is math? Also, his Yasuo games only very rarely featured amazing scores, and as mentioned before, in most cases he died quite often. That is not nearly consistent enough to support your claims.
No marksman can play yasuo, lee or camilie that well, those champs are legit easy to mess up with and take skill to do well on.
Are you trying to say marksmen are hard to mess up with and don't take skill to do well on?
Because he at the time had the absurd winrate of 90%, and even now at level 29 has a 70% winrate.
Which is a fluctuation of over 20 percentage points. How again is this consistent? How does this contradict what I've said about him mostly relying on a handful of marksman picks?
That far from anywhere near a normal player, why are you so determined to call him one?
But I'm not, though. I think it's obvious he's smurfing, I just don't think he's smurfing on the level you're claiming that is necessary to support your conjectures, particularly since you yourself have openly admitted to him not warding properly or being able to close games.
I never wrote that he wasn't,
You specifically mentioned a distinction between getting XP and getting kills, now you're saying both can be done at the same time (and somehow without closing games quickly). There is an inconsistency to your line of argumentation here.
Then i guessed
"Then I guessed" here sounds a lot like "then I backtracked and changed my claims after my previous ones were refuted". Again, you are openly admitting to conjecture here, so why should I care about your guesses on the Lucian player's motives?
And you are trying everything to downplay lucian while elevating Xin instead x)
But I'm not, though, I'm just establishing the simple fact that both played very well in that game, and were approximately evenly matched, a fact corroborated by their scores then. Why would you try to claim otherwise in the face of this evidence?
No there is a difference, the possible damage of a disaster being larger there doesn't make the place more prone to have disasters.
But you yourself said that there is also an increased risk of disaster due to numerous factors, so what you have effectively said is that bot lane snowballs harder and more often, a point I had made much earlier.
Because counting all the other classes with more champions is a pain the ass compared to themarksmen who are relatively few x)
... so you thus decided to go for convenience and produce comparisons that are completely meaningless. Good to know.
I don't quite feel like checking 30 different champion subreddits for how many subscribers they have and then figuring out the total number, just checking 17 marksmen alone was time consuming and kind of annoying.
If i had to guess then all the mages together would be anywhere between 45000-50000 people, but thats a wild guess.....still more than the marksmen though.
If you are not willing to do the research here, you are in no position to make any sort of guess. I did the work, and showed an overrepresentation of marksmen, so unless you have solid evidence to the contrary, your guesses are moot.
Well thankfully riot doesn't listen to the boards a lot, nor do the listen to reddit all the time either.
Didn't you just say that "the government" only plays to the interest of the majority? Why the sudden change of heart? You're also admitting here that Riot does, in fact, balance in favor of marksmen and not that of other classes, by the way.
In the old client every marksmen used to have one, tristana and Ezreal were both mages, ashe was a support....
Good thing the old client is still a thing, right? /s
And how exactly are those subclasses? Those aren't marksman subclasses, those are entirely separate classes. You're aware of what subclasses are, right?
Only when faced with calls for nerfs to the entire class rather than individual champs, something rather unique towards the marksmen, except for when everyone wanted the assassins nerfed.
But that's not really true. The only unique aspect to this with marksmen is the consistency with which the class has been asked to be nerfed. When assassins were criticized, many assassin mains agreed, and when mages were criticized, many mage mains were in fact the ones leading the charged. No such spirit of cooperation seems to have arisen from the marksman subcommunity.
Bashed that Ashe´s kit hasn't really aged well
So bashing Ashe, then.
Because it was going to be temporary, which i knew back then, which has been proven by the fact that the meta botlane is once again changing.
That only makes your claim even less reliable, as not only are those champions exceptions, but they were apparently also only temporary in their bot lane playstyle. You are only further disproving your claim here.
That has never been a thing, lol snowballing has always been defined as getting a lead and then causing it to grow uncontrollably.
Basic logic dictates that, in a zero-sum environment, if one side gets exceptionally big, the other becomes exceptionally small. Again, snowballing goes both ways.
Met my match, as in met my equal or my better and got beaten but not to the point where i got smashed, should be few of those on my history somewhere.
Sure, but you implied this was a bot lane carry that wasn't a marksman. Was that the case?
OP complained about botlane getting too strong and impossible to beat in a fight when snowballing so hard, my point was that such a snowball is anything but common.
Sure, but if that is the core point you are making, your core point is demonstrably wrong, as there is now ample evidence to show and even your own prior argumentation contradicting said point. Why persist?
Thefrostyviking1 votesGlad we agree, but back to the point: what exactly was that about "shutting it down"? How? All of this, by the way, after you yourself have implicitly admitted to the effect being impossible to shut down.
It's not impossible but it's much harder then it should be.
I wouldn't use that phrasing, but what you are saying here is that you picked Malz specifically because there was a time where he had survivability comparable to a tank. Again, along with your other posts this further suggests you go for champions that specifically aren't where they should be in terms of balance.
ACK.
Not survivability comparable to a tank nononon, i said he had a powerlevel comparable to marksmen and tanks, and i chose him because he was the only answer i had to strong tanks.
Ask people around if old malz or current malz were much different in how toxic they are to play against, or how good against tanks they are, most should tell you that in terms of tank killing they are in fact about the same.
New one just survives better, and is less of a plague in lane.
Just a few posts ago you were explaining how you commonly feel the pressure of carrying with marksmen as a whole, a sentiment shared by many other marksman mains, yet are now backtracking by claiming that marksmen are, in fact, too diverse to make any sort of generalization. There is therefore an inconsistency with what you are trying to say.
Marksmen are diverse in how they play and their conditions for success but they still fulfill the same end job....except MF, jhin and Ezreal.
Ashe as well to a degree in fact.
There is no way to make overall changes to the class that will miraculously make the class balanced due to their innate differences, only by removing the most notable things and then tweaking the individuals will they not go bonkers.
There is a reason why a few marksmen always go crazy whenever a big change go through.
Except you've played her for two consecutive seasons, and she is your most consistent pick along with Ashe. Again, your reasoning here is only secondary to the statistics.
Pardon? I played Tristana every season except my first <.< I have always used her as my anti assassin pick of choice when possible.
Indeed, which is specifically something Riot removed, even reversed over time, as with their changes to Ziggs back when he was still capable of clearing waves from long distances. I also think part of this came from tanks being legitimately tanky, rather than capable of dealing high damage, but overall I agree here, Seasons 3-4 featured comeback mechanics that are simply not present in the game's current state, which is also why games now tend to be more snowbally.
Rather than tanks being any tankier back then, it's just that more anti tank tools are available overall and more champs have such stuff built into their kits, even if weak.
Except that, unlike Seasons 3-4, marksmen can legitimately go outside of bot lane, as you yourself have said. Evidence shows that they aren't "extremely weak" individually, as even without a support they have the highest damage output and sustain in the game.
Vayne and Ezreal have ceased to exist outside botlane, lucian looks like a candle in the wind and Mf is sinking evidently as well.
Mordekaiser was OP while he was viable bot, so that point is moot, but as mentioned in other posts, this only scratches the surface, as League is the only MOBA to feature such a stagnancy problem. Every other game in the genre has lanes, marksmen and supports, yet do not have this issue.
Different mobas, different games, different designs.
Twitch has been notoriously overpowered for quite some time, including in competitive play, yet still has received no nerfs. Moreover, I am here talking about class-wide changes, not just changes to individual champions. Even though I do believe pro play receives the most focus, evidence suggests that is not the only criterion here.
Because apparently he isnt OP in high level play without old ardent censer, which riot is apparently content with.
And while i still think his snowball is toxic i also acknowledge that i hardly ever see him anymore.
Okay, so by your own admission marksmen were never unviable. Why imply otherwise, then? When were marksmen even at risk of being unviable?
They were often at the risk of being it, but Riot always pushed them up before it came to that.-
Individually marksmen are the easiest to buff, just up their numbers but something as little as 5 AD and suddenly one of them can rise 2% winrate wise.
It's only class wide that they become difficult.
So criticizing an entire class means the person making the criticism is biased? How exactly does that follow?
Refusing to acknowledging the difference between individual champions and saying that 
=
because they deal damage by auto attacks is a pretty damn biased way of looking at things.
You are looking at one core aspect of their gameplay and ignoring everything else to drive an argument about their overall state based on that one aspect, if that is not biased then nothing is.
Thefrostyviking1 votesSo you are indeed trying to say that players outside of bot lane are careless, then. Good to know.
Once again, you read too much into what i write.
What i did write was that they can afford to do it, not that they always are.
So, again, this is you confirming on your end that marksmen are imbalanced. QED.
No not really, what i acknowledge is that their presence is enforced.
So three classes are being kept to hold another three in check? How does that make sense?
The viability of marksmen and supports and tanks in league seems to be enforced by having them restrain eachother mutually.
Without a marksman+support you can't restrain a tank.
Without a tank you cant restrain a marksman+support.
It's also worth mentioning that viable and played =/= mandatory. Marksmen are mandatory, which is not good, and the larger consensus is that that shouldn't be the case, even if they should still be viable and played. Is that too much to ask?
They are evidently not mandatory if there are no tanks, as proven by Ziggs.
And i honestly don't think there is any way to make them viable and non mandatory at the same time, as also proven by ziggs and a few other mages.
They as a whole weakened even a little and suddenly their supposed iron grib on botlane loosened enough to let ziggs and a few others (more more uncommon) go through almost immediately.
Recall seeing Victor, veigar and syndra on pro streams.
Teridax681 votesIt's not impossible but it's much harder then it should be.
This yet again does not answer the question. How exactly does one "shut down" Statikk Shiv?
Not survivability comparable to a tank nononon, i said he had a powerlevel comparable to marksmen and tanks, and i chose him because he was the only answer i had to strong tanks.
You said he was equally forgiving because of his durability, but in the end, the details matter less than the fact that you expressly picked Malzahar because he was on the same power level of tanks and marksmen, which you perceive as overtuned.
Marksmen are diverse in how they play and their conditions for success but they still fulfill the same end job....except MF, jhin and Ezreal.
Except this is very different from what you've been saying just before, and still doesn't resolve the inherent contradiction here in what you've been saying.
Pardon? I played Tristana every season except my first <.< I have always used her as my anti assassin pick of choice when possible.
And this contradicts the statistics... how?
Rather than tanks being any tankier back then, it's just that more anti tank tools are available overall and more champs have such stuff built into their kits, even if weak.
I agree, but in the end everything is relative, so if everyone is accessing anti-tank tools more often, tanks as a class are less durable overall.
Vayne and Ezreal have ceased to exist outside botlane, lucian looks like a candle in the wind and Mf is sinking evidently as well.
But none of these have disappeared, as also evidence by Vayne top's presence on the Boards. Even if all of this were true, why pretend that these picks don't exist at all? They exist, point blank, and that is what matters.
Different mobas, different games, different designs.
And how is this difference relevant? Any two objects being compared may have some uniqueness, that need not make the comparison any less pertinent. What exactly is the critical differentiating factor that causes LoL to be stagnant in ways other MOBAs are not?
Because apparently he isnt OP in high level play without old ardent censer, which riot is apparently content with.
Except he was also notoriously popular in pro play, so even if there was indeed a Riot post saying he was mostly a solo queue champion, that claim is contradicted by factual evidence, and the defense of such a marksman comes across as all the more suspicious as a result.
They were often at the risk of being it, but Riot always pushed them up before it came to that.-
When? Why? None of this is tangible information, nor does it move conversation forward.
Refusing to acknowledging the difference between individual champions and saying that
Why? Why would that dismiss criticism of, say, autoattack-based damage output, crits or lifesteal? These are features common to all marksmen that occur pretty consistently, so contrary to your opinion, it is indeed possible to criticize an entire class and still do so on valid grounds.
Teridax681 votesOnce again, you read too much into what i write.
In what sense? Should I just not read what you write, then? Because what I'm pointing out is inherent to what you are writing, so even if you personally don't want to admit to having said something, in the end you've said it. In this case, you are implicitly accusing players outside of bot lane of being less careful than marksmen, based on conjecture. This, I think, goes back to the portion of our conversation a few posts back, where you admit to bias, but aren't identifying how it is coloring your judgment of the debate here and the people involved.
No not really, what i acknowledge is that their presence is enforced.
Please explain the relevant difference, and why it contradicts what has just been said.
The viability of marksmen and supports and tanks in league seems to be enforced by having them restrain eachother mutually.
This was absolutely not the situation back in Seasons 2 and 3, where fighters dominated and tanks weren't really relevant. Your assessment here is not absolute by any measure.
They are evidently not mandatory if there are no tanks, as proven by Ziggs.
How does Ziggs prove anything? He was present in only a few games for a short period of time, and was the only non-marksman to do so. This whole narrative of deferring blame onto tanks doesn't really hold up to evidence, particularly since we've both gone over the relevant patch notes together.
And i honestly don't think there is any way to make them viable and non mandatory at the same time, as also proven by ziggs and a few other mages.
And how does Ziggs prove that either?
Recall seeing Victor, veigar and syndra on pro streams.
Which ones? How often?
Thefrostyviking1 votesYou repeatedly said Fizz went after Xin, and this is only in the last scenario you've come up with. You are contradicting yourself here.
I did say that only one attacked lucian at the time, as only 1 can get past veigar+thresh at the time, the other gets delayed by at least 2 seconds.
But they would indeed still attack at the same time, or no one gets past the CC at all.
4:1 win rate is 90% now? What is math? Also, his Yasuo games only very rarely featured amazing scores, and as mentioned before, in most cases he died quite often. That is not nearly consistent enough to support your claims.
.....Dude you are literally picking at words and not looking at context.
I wrote that at the time i wrote the comment before then, Lucian did indeed have 90% winrate, but he does not anymore.
And if 26,3,7 Yasuo isnt impressive then i don't know what is, but at this moment OP.GG seems have some issue as i suddenly can't bring his older games up, only the recent ones.
But i know that in each Yasuo game he won he had a huge amount of kills and less than 10 deaths, often below 6 even if i recall.
16--7-15 is still amazing in my book.
Are you trying to say marksmen are hard to mess up with and don't take skill to do well on?
No, but i am saying that those champs are unique and take a good amount of time to learn, nothing that a marksman onetrick can suddenly pickup and smash games with.
Which is a fluctuation of over 20 percentage points. How again is this consistent? How does this contradict what I've said about him mostly relying on a handful of marksman picks?
Except that 20% is based of less than 30 games, meaning that even 3 games count as 10%, which makes it easy to influence numbers.
The only clear thing is that he for a while won 9 outa 10 games, and was winning 7 out of 10 when i checked last.
That is amazing no matter how you look at it.
But I'm not, though. I think it's obvious he's smurfing, I just don't think he's smurfing on the level you're claiming that is necessary to support your conjectures, particularly since you yourself have openly admitted to him not warding properly or being able to close games.
I also don't want much, even in my own games, and i still somehow made it to low plati playing extremely inconsistently.
He seems to average around 15 wards per game, which what average non support/jungler in my games average around too.
You specifically mentioned a distinction between getting XP and getting kills, now you're saying both can be done at the same time (and somehow without closing games quickly). There is an inconsistency to your line of argumentation here.
When did i do that? Been too long since i wrote x)
And it's easy to gain kills and exp from a game, just go around smashing the opponents and not end the game, you´ll end up with a massively inflated KDA and all the EXP you could want once you do end.
"Then I guessed" here sounds a lot like "then I backtracked and changed my claims after my previous ones were refuted". Again, you are openly admitting to conjecture here, so why should I care about your guesses on the Lucian player's motives?
I admitted that my first few guesses were too far fetched and instead came up with a few other ones that were more plausible.
But I'm not, though, I'm just establishing the simple fact that both played very well in that game, and were approximately evenly matched, a fact corroborated by their scores then. Why would you try to claim otherwise in the face of this evidence?
Because evidently Lucian plays better on average then Xin does, and had we switched them around, having the lucian play Xin zhao or lee, and the xin zhao play Lucian or Vayne then i still think the lucian would have won with a landslide.
Because evidently the Lucian is not a marksman one trick since he knows how to play difficult champs like lee, camilie and yasuo.
Even if only a few examples could be found.
But you yourself said that there is also an increased risk of disaster due to numerous factors, so what you have effectively said is that bot lane snowballs harder and more often, a point I had made much earlier.
Both teams should want to have their botlanes snowball given the potential damage but a competent botlane should not be so easy to catch given how powerful they are, no? x)
If you are not willing to do the research here, you are in no position to make any sort of guess. I did the work, and showed an overrepresentation of marksmen, so unless you have solid evidence to the contrary, your guesses are moot.
Alright, i checked and as expected, the mages total out as about 49~ Not counting Zilean despite his midlane playrate.
Didn't you just say that "the government" only plays to the interest of the majority? Why the sudden change of heart? You're also admitting here that Riot does, in fact, balance in favor of marksmen and not that of other classes, by the way.
The majority is composed of non marksmen, the mages alone are about 10000 more than the marksmen, add in riven and gankplank ontop and suddenly the others are 25000 more.
Majority? Marksmen? More like Minority <.<
Good thing the old client is still a thing, right? /s
It was you who insisted on not using the updated sublcass list and calling it bad <.< I just went back to the oldest list i knew since i figured you might accept that if anything.
And how exactly are those subclasses? Those aren't marksman subclasses, those are entirely separate classes. You're aware of what subclasses are, right?
Assassins in the new subclass list is a subclass you know, overall class is called slayer^^
Supports are divided between enchanters, mages and the peel tanks whatever name they had.
But that's not really true. The only unique aspect to this with marksmen is the consistency with which the class has been asked to be nerfed. When assassins were criticized, many assassin mains agreed, and when mages were criticized, many mage mains were in fact the ones leading the charged. No such spirit of cooperation seems to have arisen from the marksman subcommunity.
Because many of the requested nerfs were to be applied to the entire class and would result in most marksmen being gutted as a result.
And the assassin mains just wanted their champs to have the reworks reverted, not to have the champs nerfed, mages wanted Syndra gone, malz back to midlane from botlane along with Zyra.
Those were the only united calls that i recall.
And many marksmen as far as i know do agree that Static shiv is OP, and that Vayne and Twitch are hella frustrating to deal with.
Riot kinda seems to feel that those two are the Yasuos of botlane though, and everyone not playing them will just hate them regardless.
So bashing Ashe, then.
More like asking for buffs by telling people why she does not work so well x)
Hard to make an argument for it when she is successfully played as a ultimate bot though.....i just wish she could have some power shifted to her auto attacks instead of the ulti.
That only makes your claim even less reliable, as not only are those champions exceptions, but they were apparently also only temporary in their bot lane playstyle. You are only further disproving your claim here.
I am fairly sure that my claim for this particular potion was that botlane, without something OP like static, MF or Ezreal running the show, is a pretty slow stale lane where everyone just farms and pokes for 10 minutes before doing anything.
Don't think i´ve written anything to the contrary so far.
Basic logic dictates that, in a zero-sum environment, if one side gets exceptionally big, the other becomes exceptionally small. Again, snowballing goes both ways.
Except that it's not a Zero-sum enviroment, other side can still get gold, and big side doesn't have to get all it's gold in the same place, which leaves the other side some place to grow if quick about it.
Sure, but you implied this was a bot lane carry that wasn't a marksman. Was that the case?
eh what?
I stated that i often met my match, my equal or my better, and got forced into being passive as to not lose terribly.
How does this equate to playing a non marksman carry?
Sure, but if that is the core point you are making, your core point is demonstrably wrong, as there is now ample evidence to show and even your own prior argumentation contradicting said point. Why persist?
Ample evidence? Where?
Couldn't find it on boards backed by any evidence, couldn't find it on https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/ either
People seem to have stopped talking about botlane completely except support here and there, think i saw a Vayne complaint as well.
Teridax681 votesI did say that only one attacked lucian at the time, as only 1 can get past veigar+thresh at the time, the other gets delayed by at least 2 seconds.
Okay, but that is literally assuming that Xin and Fizz are going in one by one. Why claim otherwise, then? In both cases, you are relying on conjecture, and are not making any valid point.
I wrote that at the time i wrote the comment before then, Lucian did indeed have 90% winrate, but he does not anymore.
Then why bring it up now when it has lowered since then? This is the context I am interested in, which you have omitted.
And if 26,3,7 Yasuo isnt impressive then i don't know what is
It certainly is impressive, but to extrapolate from just that, and in spite of a lot of contrary evidence, that whoever's playing him is a Plat smurf is a big stretch. You're going to need a lot more than just that if you want to make that kind of claim.
No, but i am saying that those champs are unique and take a good amount of time to learn, nothing that a marksman onetrick can suddenly pickup and smash games with.
So if the criterion is uniqueness, then you are implicitly admitting to marksmen being homogeneous enough for there to be such a thing as a marksman onetrick. Either way, your reasoning's not holding up, and neither is the players' record for Yasuo games.
Except that 20% is based of less than 30 games, meaning that even 3 games count as 10%, which makes it easy to influence numbers.
So then, by your own admission, those stats are volatile? Why then argue as if they were reliable?
That is amazing no matter how you look at it.
It isn't as much when you look at where those wins come from, which is from a handful of marksmen. As you yourself said just above, this is to be expected from a player who one-tricks marksmen.
I also don't want much, even in my own games, and i still somehow made it to low plati playing extremely inconsistently.
He seems to average around 15 wards per game, which what average non support/jungler in my games average around too.
Again, your own anecdotal evidence here isn't reliable, particularly since you are trying to win the argument here in a manner that undermines the level of skill required to be at Plat, thereby defeating your point.
When did i do that? Been too long since i wrote x)
You did several posts ago, which you are free to check at your convenience.
And it's easy to gain kills and exp from a game, just go around smashing the opponents and not end the game, you´ll end up with a massively inflated KDA and all the EXP you could want once you do end.
Sure, but as established before, stalling games is not necessary for a high-level player to accrue such a KDA, and those who do have much more ridiculous scores and tend to close games automatically anyway. You are here yet again stating there is a distinction between going for kills and going for exp, when just a few posts ago you claimed no such distinction existed.
I admitted that my first few guesses were too far fetched and instead came up with a few other ones that were more plausible.
More plausible how? Why? In the end, you're still arguing in the realm of conjecture, which lends no credibility to the arguments that follow regarding all of these hypothetical in-game scenarios.
Because evidently Lucian plays better on average then Xin does, and had we switched them around, having the lucian play Xin zhao or lee, and the xin zhao play Lucian or Vayne then i still think the lucian would have won with a landslide.
Except this is yet again conjecture, itself unsupported by the game being studied, and by the track record for marksmen overall. In addition, you yourself have admitted that bot lane snowballs harder than other lanes, which describes the behavior of that Lucian perfectly in this specific game and his subsequent games.
Because evidently the Lucian is not a marksman one trick since he knows how to play difficult champs like lee, camilie and yasuo.
Does he? Where?
Even if only a few examples could be found.
... so the evidence you have is insufficient to support the claims you are making, then.
Both teams should want to have their botlanes snowball given the potential damage but a competent botlane should not be so easy to catch given how powerful they are, no? x)
Nobody wants their lane to snowball in the enemy's favor. Why is this feeling unique to bot lane?
Alright, i checked
Have you now? All I'm seeing are vague numbers that don't seem to hold up to prior verification. Do you have evidence that shows you have, in fact, checked, and not simply produced a bunch of random numbers that suited your point?
It was you who insisted on not using the updated sublcass list and calling it bad <.< I just went back to the oldest list i knew since i figured you might accept that if anything.
Actually, you yourself said it was outdated and did not accurately reflect the state of League, so going to the oldest list makes no sense in this respect. I'm not quite understanding your reasoning here.
Assassins in the new subclass list is a subclass you know, overall class is called slayer^^
Indeed, but they weren't when the very original list was made. How exactly is this new development relevant to a classification system made years before?
Teridax681 votesSupports are divided between enchanters, mages and the peel tanks whatever name they had.
Supports don't even exist in the new classification system. They're called Controllers, and are split between Catchers and Enchanters. Peel tanks are Wardens, and are a tank subclass, and mages are mages.
Because many of the requested nerfs were to be applied to the entire class and would result in most marksmen being gutted as a result.
Really, have you tested those changes? Which ones are you even referring to? Again, this isn't even about the community accepting all proposed nerfs to marksmen, this is the community refusing to so much as compromise, and instead preferring to block conversation by maintaining that there is no problem whatsoever with marksmen or their itemization.
And the assassin mains just wanted their champs to have the reworks reverted, not to have the champs nerfed, mages wanted Syndra gone, malz back to midlane from botlane along with Zyra.
As someone who has worked closely with many assassin mains, I can confirm that this is not the whole truth, as many players have pushed towards more interactivity on their champions (the Rengar main community in particular wants to get rid of his one-shot capabilities, for example). In addition, many of the other factors you have cited do not contradict what I have said, particularly since there is no such equivalent among marksman mains.
And many marksmen as far as i know do agree that Static shiv is OP, and that Vayne and Twitch are hella frustrating to deal with.
Who? Where?
More like asking for buffs by telling people why she does not work so well x)
Hard to make an argument for it when she is successfully played as a ultimate bot though.....i just wish she could have some power shifted to her auto attacks instead of the ulti.
You are the first and only player I have seen to make this kind of criticism, but that nonwithstanding, I do think the fact that you're asking for buffs on a champion who is balanced relative to other marksmen (and relative to other marksmen specifically) does itself go back to that part in the conversation on bias. Why do that here?
I am fairly sure that my claim for this particular potion was that botlane, without something OP like static, MF or Ezreal running the show, is a pretty slow stale lane where everyone just farms and pokes for 10 minutes before doing anything.
Actually, you were asked to describe the dynamics of bot lane in your own words, which you described as very active and combat-heavy. Since then, you have backtracked by instead claiming it is back to a Season 4-esque farm fest, and that the playstyles you described were only pertinent to just two marksmen, whose behavior bot was only temporary. Hence, you undermining your own claim.
Except that it's not a Zero-sum enviroment,
Except it is, because one side's power is measured relative to the other's. One side's win is the other side's loss. This is the definition of a zero-sum environment. Therefore, if one side snowballs exceptionally hard towards more power, that means the other side snowballs exceptionally hard towards less power.
I stated that i often met my match, my equal or my better, and got forced into being passive as to not lose terribly.
How does this equate to playing a non marksman carry?
You implied that your match in this scenario was a non-marksman carry in bot lane. Your personal experience in bot lane is otherwise not relevant here.
Ample evidence? Where?
As has been indicated before, it can be found in this very conversation and on the Boards, among others. There not being a detailed description on the first few threads of the Boards or Reddit does not contradict this.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThis yet again does not answer the question. How exactly does one "shut down" Statikk Shiv?
Kill them, really, really fast.
Which kinda works right now as proven by the top junglers and midlaners.
You said he was equally forgiving because of his durability, but in the end, the details matter less than the fact that you expressly picked Malzahar because he was on the same power level of tanks and marksmen, which you perceive as overtuned.
I said that he could bulldoze through key enemy spells by stacking spellshields, not that he was durable as a tank.
And under that meta the teamcomps were basically 2 tanks,1 enchanter, 1 mage and 1 marksman.
Everything that was played aside from the mages was plain broken, and the other mage played at the time was Orianna who was chosen for her synergy with diving tanks x)
Other than those two i think the only played consistently were taliyah and Ryze, who did fairly similar jobs.
Except this is very different from what you've been saying just before, and still doesn't resolve the inherent contradiction here in what you've been saying.
If the job is to get to the roof, does it not make a difference in how you get there? Climbing a ladder, jumping, climbing a rope or going through a opening in the roof from the inside?
If you were to just say that the end result matters and that the way is irrelevant then i´d quickly lose interest :/
Those differences is why people can tell those champions apart.
And this contradicts the statistics... how?
You claimed that i only played her for the past 2 seasons <.<
I agree, but in the end everything is relative, so if everyone is accessing anti-tank tools more often, tanks as a class are less durable overall.
Well they did get a lot of new toys to help them out......cho has never been tankier than he can get now, Sejuani neither....nor has Zac.
But none of these have disappeared, as also evidence by Vayne top's presence on the Boards. Even if all of this were true, why pretend that these picks don't exist at all? They exist, point blank, and that is what matters.
First you argue that botlane off picks like mordekaiser don't exist as they don't show up on the statistical sites despite boards proof to the contrary and now you argue that Vayne exists topalane because of boards proof.
And you are saying i am the one being contradictory?
And how is this difference relevant? Any two objects being compared may have some uniqueness, that need not make the comparison any less pertinent. What exactly is the critical differentiating factor that causes LoL to be stagnant in ways other MOBAs are not?
Very, very different games, the only thing similar really is the MOBA tag.
Have you actually ever played DOTA or Hots? You seem to have played DOTA but i am unsure so i feel the need to ask, i myself have only played HOTS.
And i can tell, the games are different from the group up with the exception of how you aim to break enemy nexus.
Except he was also notoriously popular in pro play, so even if there was indeed a Riot post saying he was mostly a solo queue champion, that claim is contradicted by factual evidence, and the defense of such a marksman comes across as all the more suspicious as a result.
He was notoriously popular under season 7 worlds, because of ardent, he was never a thing in worlds before that as far as i know, he definitely wasn't even picked under worlds 2016.
When? Why? None of this is tangible information, nor does it move conversation forward.
You asked why they never fell outa meta, i answered.
Why? Why would that dismiss criticism of, say, autoattack-based damage output, crits or lifesteal? These are features common to all marksmen that occur pretty consistently, so contrary to your opinion, it is indeed possible to criticize an entire class and still do so on valid grounds.
Except the damage done, the damage healed and whatnot often differs by a lot.
Ashe on average deals 17-18 k damage, ezreal averages around 25 k, kog also sits around 25.
They are the same you say? Alright.....you´ve clearly stated that Ezreal is the same as kogmaw because they both use auto attacks and lifesteal.
Right.
Oh and Ashe who doesn't even crit like the others, and Jhin who is well known for a unique loading mechanic.
They are all the same according to you and thus you can criticize them overall and it´ll be valid.
Right.
Vast differences in damage, vast differences in kill participation and damage taken and deaths and even unique champ kits like jhin are no different from the rest.
In fact you write that they are all the same......you might wana realize that marksmen have difficulties taking these kinds of statements seriously.
If you can't tell the difference between kog, ashe and Ezreal then you are not worth my attention <.<
Thefrostyviking1 votesIn what sense? Should I just not read what you write, then? Because what I'm pointing out is inherent to what you are writing, so even if you personally don't want to admit to having said something, in the end you've said it. In this case, you are implicitly accusing players outside of bot lane of being less careful than marksmen, based on conjecture. This, I think, goes back to the portion of our conversation a few posts back, where you admit to bias, but aren't identifying how it is coloring your judgment of the debate here and the people involved.
The point was, that since towers don't die as easily away from botlane, and they won't drop dead after just one or two mistakes early, other lanes can afford to be more careless.
Mainly midlane.
But being able to afford something and actually buying into it is not the same.
Please explain the relevant difference, and why it contradicts what has just been said.
Being overtuned means they are dominant because they are too strong, having their presence enforced means that they fill a role no one else can.
In this case, tank counter.
This was absolutely not the situation back in Seasons 2 and 3, where fighters dominated and tanks weren't really relevant. Your assessment here is not absolute by any measure.
Back then the dominant ones where burst mages, assassins and the current divers, it was basically the same meta as we have right now in which you want the enemy dead as fast as possible.
Supports were out of the game after 1 death, and marksmen were helpless after 2.
It's hardly even the same game anymore.
How does Ziggs prove anything? He was present in only a few games for a short period of time, and was the only non-marksman to do so. This whole narrative of deferring blame onto tanks doesn't really hold up to evidence, particularly since we've both gone over the relevant patch notes together.
Except he proves a lot, he did not leave botlane completely until the tank patch hit, until that point he was fully viable albeit a fairly low pick, only 3-6% pickrate.
And how does Ziggs prove that either?
The moment they became viable botlane most marksmen were not.
Which ones? How often?
Think it was QTpies video's actually, he had some montage or was part of one toghether with sneaky for the "ADCin2k17" meme, showcasing them both getting blown up over and over by different champs as they tried to do stuff as marksmen under that time period.
A few of those clips should have been in lane by mage combo´s around 6.
Thefrostyviking1 votesSure, but again, none of this pertains to GA, which you have stated to have risen above stiff competition. This feels like an implicit admission by omission that you have been contradicting yourself on the matter.
The only reason you´ll ever get GA on any champ is because you know you´ll die and can't prevent it, if any other option exists you´ll immediately take it.
And while you are waiting for GA to work it leaves you immobile and not dealing any damage, which is much to contrary to what marksmen want to do.
But this phrasing is irrelevant. This is the same kind of talk as for whether a glass is half full or half empty: in the end, saying every option outside of GA being insufficient is the exact same as saying GA was stronger than every other option. Considering how you have also explicitly claimed that your stated competition, namely Banshee's, was itself strong, it stands to reason that GA was therefore even stronger for marksmen.
What i am trying to explain is the difference between a good option that people like and a bad but necessary option that no one wants to take but they have to do in order to stand a chance.
If that were true, then literally every melee champion would be using those items, which is not the case. Again, the obvious conclusion here is simply that ranged champions, namely marksmen, are prone to abuse certain effects that are intended for melee champions, due to the inherent advantage their range affords them. Again, Sterak's isn't the only item to have had its effects made melee-exclusive.
"prone to abuse effects intented for melee?" Dude you might be extremely biased against marksmen but even you have to realize that steraks low CD barrier that was between 1000-2000 was extremely overpowered´?
It was the perfect version of GA, protection when you need it without having to stop moving or attacking.
That is the only item marksmen as a whole have ever abused that was fully intended for melee.
... which is why they specifically go for AP + health + mana items. Again, you can't just pretend the health stat, sustain and shield all don't exist, particularly when she does have a passive that works off of health.
The "sustain" part is largely irrelevant as you hardly ever use it anyway, Anivia never fights in lane, she only ever farms unless going against Zed.
And in teamfights she sits back outside enemy range, you´ll never see a decent Anivia walk into enemy range unless to E.
And by that logic, 3 AD on Vayne makes no difference, right? Again, your reasoning here is self-contradictory, and inconsistent with your prior arguments.
It was 5 AD, and on a champ that consistently auto attacks and fights the difference is immense.
They could give anivia a handicap of having 80 health less and she would still play absolutely the same.
40-50 damage before reductions from armor. Are you sure you are as familiar as you claim with Anivia or mid lane?
Her base AD is 50, and most other mages also have around 20-25 base armor, a total reduction of 20% damage.
50 x 0,8 = 40.
Yeah, i think i am quite familiar.
Again, before reductions, so a 70 health difference really can be a matter of life and death, particularly since a stat like that represents 15% of Anivia's health at level 1 (even 40 health is 8.3%, a sizeable portion).
Except, she never, ever fights at those levels, you´ll never find an Anivia go aggressively post like 300 tear stacks.
Dismissing everyone with contrary opinions as ignorant is a perfectly credible mode of argumentation, right? /s
Read the rest and you´d know why i´d write that.
... which is enough to consistently get headshots, even before she can completely wall off a lane. What exactly do you think her traps are for?
Except it is not, 3 traps are extremely easy to avoid and any even basic botlaner can do it, the lane is not a narrow corridor.
Except she's picked precisely for her ability to dive the back line? I get that she's being reworked, as her design is really poor and low on interactivity, but the fact remains is that she was expressly designed to be good against back liners.
Except that design failed right from the start and she was always played as a splitpusher, she has never been a pick chosen for her ability to dive backlines.
Another part of rework reasons.
Arguing by repeated assertion isn't really making an argument. Quinn is very much a marksman, for reasons cited above, and to this day you are the only person I have seen trying to argue the contrary.
Marksmen (formerly "Carries") excel at dealing reliable sustained damage at range (usually through basic attacks) while constantly skirting the edge of danger. Although Marksmen have the ability to stay relatively safe by kiting their foes, they are very fragile and are extremely reliant on powerful item purchases to become true damage threats.
Copypaste from the league wiki of marksman definition. Quinn is not a marksman, as she likes to dive in headlong into fights, have good damage built into her kit and mainly use abilities for damage for the first 20-30 minutes.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Marksman_champion
And yet, paradoxically, seems to have more presence than ever, as indicated by recent discussion.
Because she became a lot more popular botlane due to OP status.
Except this personal assessment of yours is unsupported by all evidence and highly unlikely, particularly as she is universally referred to as the most marksman-like of mages, with a power budget mostly pushed towards single-target DPS.
Except it's not, you´d understand this logic by just looking at the old sejuani who had a equally powerful AOE CC ultimate, compare that one's base kit and new ones base kit after the shift in power budget and tell me they are anywhere near equal.
If cassio were to get a similar shift she would indeed havea good shot at fulfilling the idea of being a AP marksman, but because so much goes into her ultimate she can't be such until changes are made.
You have tried to, using the same, already refuted arguments, yet have also outright admitted to marksmen being overtuned. That is the bottom line.
You insist on finding meanings and implied words where i left none, and you even insist on saying that = 
.
How can i possibly take you seriously?
Thefrostyviking1 votes... so the BotRK change I mentioned multiple posts ago, then? I see Lethality has dropped out of the picture as well.
I mentioned the Botrk change first as a reason botlane meta shifted at the time.....
And lethality did disappear for a while, until buffed back.
Sure, but the fact remains that, contrary to your claims, Lethality remained unchanged then. That is the point being discussed.
...Why did we discuss that again? I forgot.
I mean, you need only look at your own cited examples for marksmen outside of bot lane. These marksman can be "disappearing" all you like, they have not disappeared is the point.
Vayne and Ezreal are gone, Lucian is a straight trollpick given his win and pickrate as he doesn't counter anything anymore, best matchup is a 50%.
Wait 2 weeks and MF will be gone too.
That are succeeding by your own definition, and it is worth noting that you had to specifically add that to avoid directly contradicting yourself within the same post.
Except they are not? There isn't a single successful pick except Corki, just look at what happened to Vayne and Ezreal, what is happening to Mf and lucian-
Pretty soon, corki will be the only one left.
So... nothing stating that he is immune to damage or CC? Good to know, then.
He gets around it,avoids it or negates the effect, same thing
Sure, but that's not what was being discussed, as you suddenly flipped to top lane exclusively to explain Mordekaiser bot's performance. Why do so?
I used Mordekaiser as a example to illustrate how a melee made for botlane cant be anything but a impossible monster whenever he works outside of botlane.
He actually has over a hundred bugs left, so the joke is ongoing, but I agree, Mordekaiser really has a lot of spaghetti code still left in him.
Damn.....i though he only had like 40 left or something at this point ._.
Okay, so first off, what evidence is giving you the impression that only juggernauts are complaining, and second, even if these were literally all juggernauts, why discount their opinion? Top lane is the only place most of these champions can go, and oppressive as many of them are, juggernauts as a class have never been successful. This dismissal of juggernauts and their players kinda feels like kicking a dog while they're down.
Except Juggernauts when first implemented dominated worlds in season 5 so hard they had to pause worlds to re balance them away, it was beyond ridiculous.
And if you check most of the threads complaining about marksmen toplane then it's always a juggernaut complaining.
... and surged into the Boards, apparently. As if to make my point. x)
Except she has two threads here on frontpage, one made by a ....aram main?......Dunno where he got the idea to complain from.'
The other complains about her fundamental design.
Didn't you just say that MF support became a thing yet again due to Aery?
Aery got nerfed so she is going to go away now that it evidently doesnt work anywhere near as well anymore.
As shown by her win and playrates.
Thefrostyviking1 votesTo you, they may be as good as a bot lane mage, but to the vast majority of other players, they aren't. Marksmen are present outside of bot lane, mages are not sufficiently present as bot lane carries to be tallied. That is a fact.
As of now there is 1 marksman outside botlane with a notable prescence, which is corki.
2 who have a extremely low one, being around 1%-
So, by your own admission, marksmen are being played outside of bot lane carry roles. Why then say otherwise?
Because Aery was quickly nerfed and she is going to go away again
Why 5%? If we are to pick that number, then again, a huge number of champions in their "official" positions would not exist either. I don't quite understand the need to honor such an arbitrary condition.
Aurelion sol hardly exists below toplevels of diamond, most people playing below that see him like once in a blue moon, so i´d say he doesn't exist below diamond.
Just as kayle mid doesn't, nor does zilean mid or fiddlesticks.
They work if played there but like 1 in a thousand or less have seen them.
... he says, as Vayne top threads swarm the Boards.
Swarm xD
There is one ongoing, nothing else.
Look, I don't quite know how to put this, but this argument will never work. I simply do not care about these champions' win rates, I care about their play rates, and their play rates tell me that they are indeed present out of bot lane, which is the point I'm bringing up. No amount of downplaying or your own personal opinion affects this.
Then why do you refuse to admit that Vayne toplane and Ezreal jungle aren't trollpicks? They don't exist as far as playrates are concerned.
You are being just as contradictory as you claim me to be!
So Kindred, Quinn, Graves, Vayne, Draven, Lucian, Corki, etc. just didn't exist, then?
Kindred was designed as a jungler, not a botlane marksman.
Graves was remade as a jungler entirely, and isn't even a marksman according to how marksmen are defined by having no defensive abilities or steroids and the playstyle of running around kiting rather than diving.
Corki was played AP.
Lucian didnt leave botlane at the time, Vayne was.....infact played as a toplane tank abusing her base damage on W.
Okay, but you literally just contradicted yourself by citing multiple examples of marksmen who have gone out of bot lane. You are repeatedly proving my point.
Except if a marksman plays like a mage and builds like a mage and has the off role of a mage and goes midlane while dealing ability only damage then that marksman is playing their off role as a mage. Their success there does not reflect on their botlane state.
Graves and Quinn are not marksmen, Ezreal jungle has ceased to exist.
... except for all of the marksmen you yourself just cited. x)
They are not marksmen or they do not exist.
That's maybe how it started, but so far it hasn't ended. Again, you are continuing to bring up examples of marksmen becoming popular out of bot lane.
And it has ended.
The "why" here is irrelevant. Mage supports work, full stop. They are in competition with supports. Nobody is in competition with marksmen.
Because no melee aside from Mordekaiser has the tools to endure the laning.
Except melee champions are screwed no matter who gets put in the support role, even in the case of tank supports. This suggests the issue lies not with the support class, but with marksmen, who are the only real constant in bot lane.
Eh no? Melee dominated botlane back under the lethality meta and after, it wasn't until ardent censer kicked in that melee stopped screwing over marksmen extremely hard.
So why then have we never seen that many more mages as bot lane carries? I'm perfectly willing to believe marksmen are the only class with the power to burst through tanks, but from what you're telling me bot should be a flexible lane prone to being dominated by non-marksman carries during certain metas, which has clearly not been the case.
Because the requirement for those metas is no tanks, and so far only lethality meta has been like that.
And just a few months ago, enchanters were the most popular supports. Yet marksmen were still a mainstay, as they were when mage supports were dominant. Again, supports aren't to blame here.
Except they are, support itemization is completely made to fill the marksmens gaps.
And when mage supports where really popular we were in the middle of either "ADCin2k16" or ADCin2k17".
Didn't stop until botrk gave marksmen sustain to heal through mage lanes.
And yet she is still being heavily discussed, which doesn't usually happen for nonexistent picks. It's strange that you would only cease to understand op.gg's stats when they don't corroborate your views. x)
Heavily disused with 2 threads on boards frontpage and none on reddit, yah.
I'm sorry, how exactly is this relevant to... anything at all in this discussion? I've never said ban rates and pick rates were irrelevant, and in fact my entire point is that win rates do not tell the whole story. It is you, in fact, who have been fixated on win rates as justification for dismissing marksmen out of bot lane, and for assuming marksmen aren't imbalanced even after it has been explained that their balance is heavily isolated to just the marksman class.
What i insisted on, was looking at all 3, you meanwhile insisted on looking at just one of the three consistently.
And marksman balance is heavily influenced by the support role, as any decent league player would know.
It has always been the support meta that shapes the marksmen picks, as shown by both the redemption meta, the locket and the ardent meta.
Only when a marksman becomes exceedingly OP do they start to warp the support picks, which i can't recall happening in recent memory, not even Vayne has done it.
Thefrostyviking1 votesOkay, so what you're saying is that supports are simply not able to output enough raw power to make up for the power difference between the melee and the enemy marksman. Does that not simply further indicate that marksmen are imbalanced?
I mean, said support would then make any ranged carry insanely op no?
Because once enemy divers get in ranged they would have to deal with a truly massive shield.
Not even Yasuo? Fiora? Any assassin? These champions seem pretty well-equipped to deal with the harass and CC of mid lane. Are you telling me marksmen have more early game harass than mages?
Yasuo moved toplane exactly because he struggled midlane against harass, anyone would just force his windwall out and engage on him or shove him out of lane.
Fiora? Second verse is same as the first, bait her W and engage and she is done.
Assasins get run over by any diver or tank.
Except many melee champions have tools for hit-and-run play. Renekton is notorious for this, for example.
He is also famous for being awful against more than one target, as the second will just CC him and then join the first in collapsing on renekton.
Differently how? League started out as a Dota clone and came into its own.
Different balance philosophies and years of changes do a lot.
Oh, so it's the snowball that causes marksmen to be overly dominant in League? Does that not prove my point, then?
I wrote "league snowball" as in in any champ in the game, in HOTS snowball doesn't really exist at all in the sense that it does in league.
You can't give a hero there 20 kills and expect them to win against 3 enemy champs that did even decently until then, those 3 would rape the fed guy if that happened.
Sure, but this is a model that allows any carry, regardless of range, to carry. Meanwhile, marksmen have always been mandatory, even at a time when bot lane really was all about farming.
Only class against tanks.
Potions are a thing in League, and most melee champions typically do not have to constantly go heal against ranged champions.
Except they do, haven't you read any of the toplane complaints about ranged harass?
Sure, but as you yourself have said, what would be sufficient for a melee champion in League would be OP for a ranged champion there as well, so it's not a question of quantity. Why then is this imbalance not present in HotS?
Aside from how snowball doesn't work the same, it's also a question of damage being much more even overall, they don't really follow the system of specialized classes as much.
Well except Assassins, their burst is nasty if done right.
Well if you are really curious you can google on the matter, i doubt there is any lack of discussion on it.
That is still a solid presence both mid and bot. Weren't you just saying a few posts ago that Akali was in an environment perfectly suited for her? Why contradict yourself here again?
It was perfectly suitable, until meta changes, now Akali seems to be in a awful spot overall.
You yourself had been trying to argue not too long ago that Akali was OP against melee champions.
Seems the tides have turned, that or the difficulty rating rose by a lot.
How is this relevant to marksmen poking more than mages in lane?
They until do the first few levels against melee champs, the moment a mage gets a mana item they takeover as dominant poke masters.
I never said all marksmen built Lethality, I merely cited multiple examples of marksmen who went for Lethality items. I agree that balancing an entire class in the exact same way wouldn't work, but Lethality is a stat that was intended for assassins, and the fact that it's been co-opted and frequently abused by marksmen is what has contributed to the difficulty in balancing the stat, and thereby assassins.
"MF and Jhin use lethality items too which makes it hard to balance the stat for assassins"
Then you go ahead and say marksmen rather than Jhin and MF, 2 individual champs outa 17.
Ever heard about group punishments being considered bad? This is group slander based on the deeds of two.
So if marksman itemization is overtuned, and individual marksmen have problems... which member of the class isn't problematic, then?
If we set aside those made problematic by static shiv, then only 4 outa 17 are problematic, being Vayne, Twitch, Ezreal and Miss fortune.
She is, as per the above. If you cannot produce new argumentation to support your point, there is no point in repeating it, as it will get refuted just as easily.
I refuted the claim that she is a marksman, repeatedly.
Are you telling me that Yasuo and Tryndamere... don't build crit? And that MF and Jhin are the only marksmen who build crit?
When did i write this? I wrote that they don't work with anything except crit.
And i made another typo, meant to write that only MF and Jhin get lethality.
Tryndamere and Yasuo are certainly unique, which is why I find it all the more perplexing that you would use them as general examples, particularly since you have so often resorted to calling other champions "unique" when their existence disproved the point you were trying to make.
I mentioned them and Yi as they also use crit items, and are balanced around it.
Sure, but you've said multiple times now that bot lane does indeed snowball exceptionally hard, so once more you are here denying things you have previously stated, directly or indirectly.
The potential for great damage on the event of a disaster does not make an area particularly more prone to have a disaster without outside influence.
By itself botlane doesn't really move around a lot without a severe difference in skill or champ power.
I'm not making up definitions, that is literally what snowballing is. Rengar was referred to as the snowballiest champion not just because he could become unstoppable when fed, but also because he became useless when behind. Like I said, snowballing goes both ways. It is your own definition here that is made up, and unsupported by common knowledge.
That's not snowball, that's feast or famine.
Different ideas, a champ can be snowbally and still work normally when not snowballing.
Feast or famine however is all or nothing, either they snowball and are monsters or they don't and are useless, two extremes.
Hence the call of "feast or famine".
Thefrostyviking1 votesOkay, but all of this is far less homogeneous than just "ranged autoattack damage-dealer", particularly since you described multiple different contributions and subclasses, on top of only a very general notion of "durability reinforcing abilities".
Except as anyone who ever looked botlane knows, the lane is dived between auto attack damage, ability damage (MF/corki) and ability/auto weaving (Lucian/Jhin).
Riot themselves wrote on the subclass list that they felt it possible to divide the marksmen up further but they just didnt as they wanted time to think about it at their leisure.
This definition is predicated upon the definition of tanks, which already gives it much more complexity, and additionally establishes many nuanced differences, along with distinct subclasses. Yet again, the definition of how these fighters actually fight is left vague, whereas the description of how marksmen fight is quite well-defined.
Except your description leaves one thinking all marksmen are the same and that if you know how to play one you can play all of them, which is untrue.
Okay, so first off that quote you produced is a complete fabrication, as I have never in any post stated that "all marksmen are the same". This is a straw man, and as we are the only two people in this exchange at this point, I'm not quite sure who you're trying to convince.
You stated that they all deal their damage in the same way, build the same and only have some small differences in number to call them different, if this is not calling them the same then what is?
Second, what I just described is something you haven't contradicted in any way, and have in fact confirmed yourself: marksmen all deal the vast majority of their damage via autoattacks, a tremendously homogeneous mechanic. Some marksmen may have different ranges and target specialties, but ultimately this is what their contribution boils down to.
I could just the same call clicking a button to send out a spell every few seconds to be a very homogeneous mechanic, which is basically what mages do at different ranges.
Only difference between them and marksmen is how much damage they can pump out in a 1-2 seconds interval when using all they can.
Whose thoughts? Where? Considering how the quote immediately preceding this was a complete misquote, I'm not ready to take your word on this either, particularly since I myself have closely followed discussion on marksmen.
Had to edit yours down due to a lack of space to write.
That second one was a direct copypaste from their subclass list.
Accusing me of being inexperienced with the game when pressed to provide evidence is not a particularly mature way of handling conversation. To answer that question, I've been playing since Preseason 3, and have indeed seen LCS matches with those champions, though those matches have showed that it is in fact bot lane that tends to consistently carry the hardest, even in the face of the fed champions you have mentioned. Again, do you have any evidence to support your point?
Except they dont? Whenever any of those champs was considered good they immediately took over the LCS extremely hard, just ask any vlad or olaf player.
And the only thing LCS proves clearly is that the best jungler wins most of the time, followed by the best midlaner.
That, plus many other cited factors, yes.
Well you wrote Baron, i had to ask.
You are the only person to claim this. You have repeated this statement multiple times, even though you have also contradicted yourself even more often by yourself citing factors that rendered bot lane inherently more snowbally. Why insist upon the contrary here?
There is no inherent botlane trait that was there from the start that made the lane snowball harder, only new and forced additions like weaker tower, more early ganks and such made people look to do it.
There is no inherent difference, just a few forced additions that didnt exist which is now causing issue's.
But forced additions do not mean a inherent difference.
How is this in any way relevant to what is being discussed? The point being made is that your claim that bot lane "doesn't move on its own" is totally unsupported by larger opinion and the game at large. Why dodge the point?
Except most people clearly agree that botlane is much more prone to getting ganked, roamed to and whatnot this is the common opinion.
Have you ever heard of a botlane that was ignored by both junglers?
So... checking one thread on one online community equals bot lane never being discussed at all? Okay then.
Because the game changes patch by patch, and if it isn't currently disused then it's most likely not a thing.
So that is, in fact, what you wrote. As stated before, your framing of GA as the least crap of options is entirely equivalent to it being better than all of the competition. Since you have also stated that competitor items were also strong in their own right, the latter is also more likely to be true. You are trying to backtrack here in a manner that contradicts what you have said only a few posts ago.
I called the other options situationally good and always preferred, but since they usually did not work you end up with GA even if GA didnt really change anything in the end, enemy team still collapsed on you after you revived followed someone's dive or combo.
Perhaps, but then why stop at those statistics? They make no sense to you, but only because they contradict your beliefs. When op.gg has stats that seem to further your own opinions, however, you list them on here readily, including in total isolation relative to all other data and evidence. The manner in which you are using and interpreting data here isn't consistent, and I do think demonstrates a degree of confirmation bias.
Except they evidently make no sense, average game time goes between 23-27 minutes according to https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations.
You really think people can't finish a single item in that time?
23 minutes in a snowball heavy meta?
Thefrostyviking2 votesAlright when i tried bringing up your replies it just brings me to the page rather than the comments so i had to manually look around for the right ones which is a pain.
But from this i came to the realization that we might as well just agree to disagree, we do evidently not have the same outlook and perspective on things.
Nor the same ideals or thoughts.
So to end this discussion that is long enough that the boards functions are ceasing to work properly, i as mentioned, suggest that we agree to disagree.
Which will probably save both of us a lot of time, and if we should happen to encounter the other somewhere else we shall do the same thing if a similar situation comes up.
I thank you for your lengthy replies and i apologize for my temper and laziness.
Teridax681 votesBut from this i came to the realization that we might as well just agree to disagree, we do evidently not have the same outlook and perspective on things.
Nor the same ideals or thoughts.
So to end this discussion that is long enough that the boards functions are ceasing to work properly, i as mentioned, suggest that we agree to disagree.
Which will probably save both of us a lot of time, and if we should happen to encounter the other somewhere else we shall do the same thing if a similar situation comes up.
I thank you for your lengthy replies and i apologize for my temper and laziness.
This works for me! Apologies as well if I may have caustic or otherwise mean along the way, and in the end I do think we had a very good discussion. Best of luck with your future endeavors!
LunaIsMyPony6 votesSee here's the thing, that's his END score. When he was at 11 kills he couldn't be stopped. Why was a single fed enemy stronger than my 2 fed laners and jungler?
Thefrostyviking2 votesIf i were to guess, was he at least twice as many kills over Fizz and Xin?
Any champ going say 11,2,3 is effectively a god compared to another going even 5,1,4.
The 11 one will have twice or more as much gold and much more exp, i honestly would consider it a disaster already by the 5 kills point.
Although that goes for Xin and Fizz as well, but their teamfight ability is just much too bad whilst Lucian is inferior to many marksmen due to his range......but that's not an issue when enemies lack range and the ability to get past veig+thresh.
And did he actually ever win 1v2? I sincerely doubt it unless something went terribly wrong on the attacking sides part.
As for the lead, the following is pretty accurate to some degree :
Gold = powerlevel.
What matters in league is not how many CS you are over your opponent, what matters is how you stand compared to them gold wise as that is what dictates how many items you´ll have.
Lucian's side, probably thanks to him carrying early/midgame actually caught up pretty evenly to your side with the exception of Xin zhao.....but Lucian himself was 6000 gold over Xin, which is insane, which makes it a non factor.
So both sides were even with the exceptions of Fizz, xin and lucian, Fizz was slightly over the rest and xin zhao was far ahead of them by an entire 4000.
But compared to that, Lucian was 10000 over the average......
So he was a raidboss in terms of power, while Xin was a dungeon boss, and Fizz was a rare mob or something.
Is it really unusual for a raidboss to be impossible to beat when he has an entire army of minions that are equal or a bit below your own party?
Honestly.....i have ended up pretty similarly on Syndra, Malz, Ashe or even Jax and Shyvana a few times, i just got so ahead that there was literally nothing they could do about me as long as i kept my wits about me and played alright.
Oh and on Kayle&MF too.
Trying to fight someone that fed.....if i had to give a comparison i´d use a historical one, do you know how the polish reacted to the German WW2 invasion?
They didn't believe the German tanks were real, so they sent out cavalry to face the German tank&rifle army head on......
And got absolutely destroyed, much to the Nazi´s expectations, a head victory with Cavalry against a large number of tanks supported by Riflemen is just not possible.
What your team tried to do by teamfighting against Lucians team is kinda similar......no matter what you do the distance in power is just too great to fill in just with hope's and dreams x)
That game reached the difficulty levels of nigh impossible by the time Lucian went past 12 kills.
"Edit".
OK i checked the game in match history and lucian's history, i am 100% sure Lucian is a smurf, and probably a fairly high elo one.
He crushes all of his games hard, and he only plays Lucian and Caitlyn.
Sorry OP, but you did not stand a chance in the first place, it was like a race between a person who runs to exercise and someone who runs and trains for the Olympics and have already won several competitions.
Not even a contest.
.....
Don't really know what to say, better luck next time? Smurfs are a bunch off asses x)
LunaIsMyPony3 votesAt the time he started being a real problem (able to 2v3) he had around 10 kills.
It was more of he did so much damage between PTA and took reduced damage from his PD, idk why Riot decides to give EVERY stat to marksmen. Tanks get damage on items and it's like 100 damage, 25 per seconds. Marksmen get damage reduction and we jump to percentages.
FooDang10 votesLegit, thats a normal game with sub lvl 30 "smurfs". Thats not a good basis for an argument...
NekoniClaws8 votesThat's a frequent occurrence for any lane. Try playing bot- you'll get sick of mid / top / jungle carrying. It's all perception.
Single players can scale mega-hard right now. I'm done making jokes to my friends about how 'mid feeding will bring us all down' because your team can so easily crumple via its weakest point.
Your weakest point in this case, was Annie Support.
Serika Zero4 votesi disagree with "the weak point is annie support". Its an annie support with kalista backing her up. That's a very strong engage tool from the bot lane on a team that has no other proper engage otherwise.
The weak points were: your top laner is a split pusher your mid laner is an assassin your adc is an over time damage dealer that's good at securing objectives your jungler is a fighter/skimmesher and your support is a team fight engaging support
So, the team comp its awful. While Fizz and Nasus can work together nicely (nasus 1v1s and fizz comes to assist for an easy gank kill on the side lane and destruction of multiple turrets). And while Annie and Kalista and Xin can synergize by starting small skimmeshers. The team was divided in 2, quite opposite strengths without having any wave proper wave clear.
Then..................then there's the builds.
Like, I know you are nasus and you want to build against your lane enemy (teemo), so you go double ap items (boots and helm) but..... the enemy lushen is snowballing out of control. You fucking need armor and you need it now.
That game would've been A LOT DIFFERENT if nasus had:
(1100g) 
(2900g) 
(1200g) and 
(2900) or 
(2650g) total for 8100g or 7950g.
instead of 
(1100g) 
(2800g) 
(3733g) (1000g) (1000g) total for: 9633g
Then the next person that's a problem in that team: Fizz. He is playing in a counter match-up against Veigar (which fizz wins hands down and very hard). He snowballed out of control. He build PURE OFFENSIVE. And now lucian just 2 shots him.....
Next issue:
Xin. Another guy that snowballed.
Enemy team is having 3 auto attack damage dealers, and 2 of them are building crit. What did Xin build?
Did Xin go or even
Fuck no, he went 
AS HIS ONLY ARMOR ITEM, WHEN THE ENEMY TEAM HAS AN ADC WITH OVER 10 KILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
While he has 2 MR items.... funny enough.... vs a 4/8 teemo and a 5/7 veigar....
Annie no armor as well. At least Kalista had tabis and ga.......
The first thing I noticed in that chart above was: lucian 22 kills, 6 deaths, NO ARMOR PEN ITEM!!!!!!!! But then you look at the losing team's item choice and it becomes obvious, he didn't need armor pen, because the losing team didn't even build armor hahahahahaha
Annie wasn't the issue. The issue were the builds, especially nasus's and xin's. Those two should've been strong front liners for their team. Especially xin needed tabi and randuins over ............ deadman plate.............. i won't even comment on the tiamat in there just remove 1200g from him and its the same deal. And the other issue was the team comp And the final issue, based on builds and team comp, we can assume that they didn't play as a team at all. And everyone played as an individual. They didn't think "what we should do to win as a team", they just were thinking "what should I do to kill xxx"
I'll start with the weakest points were Fizz and Xin's egos. Followed by the perception that nasus thinks he has to do damage and build trinity force every single game. Losing a match-up can mean you just got outplayed, or the enemy is better.
Having a bad build means you don't understand the game or you are trying to solo carry (xin, fizz and nasus in this game), but fail to realize that there's a player in the enemy team which is better than you can can solo carry harder than you. If 3 horses are each pulling the carriage in a different direction each while 2 more are half dead and barely move. Surely that carriage won't do anything tonight
LunaIsMyPony2 votesActually I play a lot of adc on my other account, I've played every role, and adc feels the most impactful. No lane can solo carry unless it's a split pusher or an ADC.
Annie support has an aoe stun and damage.
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