Pink wards are an essential part of map control, however, they are tough to keep around late game because all item slots become used up, so why not make another item slot, just for the pink ward? It well help late game vision, but maybe that is too much pink wards on the map. What do you guys think?
Spaceman5pff18 votesI feel like one thing needs to be considered here. Stealth champions.
Stealth champions generally excel at getting around / to their targets unseen, and as we all know, pink wards are a direct counter to that.
Let's take a look at some of the stealth champions in this game:
You may notice I have left out 
from that list. I only did that because their stealth is either Not played around as part of their primary combo (leblanc) or doesn't involve motion so the odds of being on a pink ward unknowingly are quite slim (teemo)
Now champions that are directly countered by pink wards:
Ok so what is the big deal right, some champions are countered by pinks and I want to counter them late game.. Well here is the thing... Most stealth champs that are shut down by pinks are ALSO given trouble by teams that group.
So what happens late game, when people run out of space for pinks? THEY JUST SO HAPPEN TO BE GROUPING AT THE SAME TIME.
Here is why we don't want pink wards to exist in the middle of lategame teamfights:
: Relies on her shroud for survivability, despite her sustain, she needs this to function in teamfights unless SUPER ahead.
: Already sucks enough as it is pls no more nerferino
: Relies on his ultimate invisibility to buy time for his Q and for repositioning before level 11 (based on popular evolution order). Post-11, Kha can rely on his reset mechanic for maneuverability but since he doesn't paint as many targets with damage as someone like katarina, he needs a fallback plan for getting around (handily enough, the stealth is less effective as mobility than the jump so it seems well designed as a fallback plan). Kha'Zix already falls off hard enough in the super lategame that removing his survivability via stealth would be very harsh.
: Relies completely and entirely on the element of suprise. Sure his burst is incredible, but he can USUALLY only eliminate one MAYBE 2 (if lucky), threats from the enemy team before being taken down or forced to back out. Does not do well if forced to jump into clusters unless SUPER ahead, or given opportunities via enemy mistakes.
: Relies on his Q stealth for initiation, escape, repositioning. Is already in a moderate place in terms of power with the current state of pinks. Improved Crit itemization recently helped him. (phantom dancer especially).
: Ultimate stealth is important to either getting in or getting out, already struggles in group settings.
: as much as i hate to say it, lategame pinks would hurt teemo too much, his ability to keep shroom cover is already gated by moving sweepers.
: wouldn't be hurt too much by this in the lategame I don't think. In a group setting, he already tends to use his stealth for the attack speed buff in combo with his ultimate.
For almost the exact same reasons as Kha, vayne needs her invisibility to function in super lategame due to her short range nature.
: initiation / escape you heard the spiel before :P
Look, I get why you would want this, however I hope that if you read this, you can see how this lategame lack of space for pinks is an intentional balance choice.
IGII23 votesJust gonna disagree with your comment about LeBlanc and her stealth mechanic, I find it of high importance as a jungler to carry a pink ward with me whenever I'm about to gank LeBlanc in order to take her down. Otherwise the extra second in stealth usually means that she escapes or cancels your auto that could have killed her. It also counters all forms of direct targeting while she's stealthed.
Now back to the original topic: I agree so much, I want an extra inventory slot for pink ward since the removal of oracles. Like what's even the point of not allowing us to have it?
Now I understand the reason behind removing oracles as it completely cripples stealth champs BUT there is absolutely no reason to deny us buying pink wards with full build while you could have been buying them the whole game before that moment and effectively counter any stealth champ (probably most worthy of mentioning are Akali, Wukong, Kha as it's their only way of surviving in teamfights).
It actually feels wrong to use that last inventory slot to buy that one last item as you are basically saying "alright <insert stealth champ here>, you are free to do w/e you want". I learned that relying on your teammates (especially supports who usually have that extra inventory space) to carry with them around pink ward when dealing with stealth champs is just a bad idea as they just won't do that for whatever reason (which shouldn't be happening, but well, what do you do). And if you go to super late game, where completely everyone has full builds, you are faced with a decision: Leave that one last item in base to pick up a pink ward in order to counter Rengo / Eve / Wuk / whatever or let them rampage through your team. I find this thing to be very unhealthy for game.
Either make Pink wards not reveal stealth champs (while still leaving them useful to gain vision control over a certain area by revealing enemy wards) or give us the one extra inventory space. There's not much logic in the interaction between stealth champs and pink wards as of now.
Spaceman5pff5 votesSo I see a few possible outcomes. -We get a pink-specific slot: Most (if not all) stealth champions need balance adjustments varying from small touches (likely twitch) to huge changes (Rengar, Akali and the likes) If these champions are not adjusted accordingly / untill they are, they will see little change in low elo but the higher you get the more useless they become.
-We do not get a pink specific slot: things continue as they are now. Shitty low tier ADC's will split push vs rengar and die over and over. Meanwhile the higher you go in elo, the less of that you see.
Realistically, the only stealth champions that WANT you to group are Twitch and Wukong. Everyone else has a harder time if the enemy clusters. Sure eve can get a big shield, and arguably since vayne is a mid-late champion she might TECHNICALLY like grouping but whatever.
Try this on for size: Instead of giving EVERYBODY pinks, give us an upgrade option for the yellow totem that gives you one pink per fountain visit. That way you don't have junglers running around with green smite + Sweeper + pinks, or supports with ruby ss + spooky ghost + sweeper + Pinks.
TLDR: Grouping doesn't take up an inventory space. Shitty carries that refuse to let people protect them do not make stealth champions overpowered. If stealth was op and the lack of pinks was an issue, we would see much more stealth in high elo soloQ.
It Hertz When IP2 votesOr hell, give us the old pink upgrade to yellow totem back.
Spaceman5pff1 votesThis is what im saying but everyone seems to hate the idea! Pinks endgame arent an issue if you give up farsight / sweep for them.
Its when EVERYBODY carries two forms of true sight all the time that we have an overly snowbally vision game, and im not talking just about stealth champs, but also about objective control. The tiniest of leads can mean 0 vision past your buffs if we get that much true sight
M Dragon142 votesI mean, rengar wouldn't be affected that much honestly. He uses the ult to pick people off or to jump on people when a fight has already started. If a Rengar is ulting to start a fight, he should have issues. He's an assassin, not an initiator. Pinks wouldn't stop him from getting to you, and by the time you see him, he jumps.
And as for the other champs, you have tools available already that do that job, and do it for free. Adding a way to get pink wards late game isn't going to change that.
M Dragon143 votes
Wimbledofy2 votesthat doesn't do very much against stealthed champions, it shows where they are but doesn't really allow you to target them.
Ayame Isaki1 votesSkill shots still work. And with Akali, due to her red circle of stealth, you know exactly when and where to use the trinket
AninLegions7772 votesIt has a slow buffer rate and knowing Akali, she'll either be gone in that time or she would have killed you.
M Dragon141 votesNot true. I've used it for that very reason many, many times. Also helps vs shaco, knowing if he is trying to escape or trying to go back in with his Q is also very nice, not to mention you can now follow him.
AninLegions7772 votesMany times? Mate if you don't have a skillshot dependant champ you're still disadvantaged. And even if you do, the buffer rate is too slow so you have to predict their movement. This is something I HAVE tried many many times. Also Shaco will probably still escape thanks to Boots of Swiftness/Mobility and the distance between you. This is basic. And also, tell me if this trinket works better than the one before?
M Dragon141 votesThis is basic.
It is rather basic. Really is. Is it as good as the other trinket? No. Doesn't make it useless either though. I've caught shaco, akali, talon, and rengar (When he ults to get away) enough times for me to get it when up against stealth champs. If it doesn't work for you, then I guess don't get it? I honestly don't know what you're doing wrong to fuck it up, but it works well for me.
AninLegions7772 votesYour definition of "caught" is what I call into question. Just seeing a blob where they are is one thing. But does it stop them from wrecking one of your teammates? I mean if you see the blob of a stealth champ while playing someone like Master Yi or Xin or Jax, how do you damage them? It's utterly useless if you don't have a champ with at least one skillshot. In order words, it's a disadvantage. Still going, you can just grab lee and use E when they stealth. But oh wait, they were smart enough to ban him. gg
CheftoniFTW2 votesI don't think OP meant to have a free rechargeable pink ward slot, just a slot so that we can still use pinks even at full build.
Besides. I think that giving stealth champs an advantage just because we are fully equipped is a tad off. We still have the 1 pink limit and there's no guarantee that everyone will have one available (Seeing as you have to buy them) at any given time. You can always bait out the pink ward by pretending to initiate, they place it, siege the pink ward, then go for the actual fight afterward.
Spaceman5pff1 votesBut does rengar REALLY have an advantage when you are grouped as 5?
Also, i know op doesnt want a free recharging pink slot. However, the ability for a team to have 1.5 sightstones, 5 pinks, 2 - 5 sweepers is too much.
Making a pink upgrade for yellow trinket should keep the vision game more balanced than a pink slot
AninLegions7773 votesI respectfully disagree sir. What you are saying is that these champs need their invisibility to carry out certain tasks. But what you didn't mention is that the other champs without stealth are greatly at a disadvantage. For example, Take Vayne vs. Any non-stealth ADC. They fight 1v1. Immediately Vayne ults + Q, there's a moment where the enemy doesn't know where Vayne and then Vayne uses the element of surprise to destroy the enemy. Also, remember the former Oracle's alteration gave true sight and Stealth champs were still strong. It doesn't make them useless. It just adds counterplay.
Spaceman5pff1 votesExactly! The old oracle was a trinket type you opted into often vs stealth.
The current mobility od upgraded red might be too strong if it had a mobile full reveal though.
On the note of vayne, one might argue that her lack of damage focused non-auto spells puts her at an inherent disadvantage (waveclear / harass) and her stealth is there to compensate.
AninLegions7771 votesYeah it was.
It's range will be reduced, not a problem.
I could argue about Vayne but that's too long. Let's talk about people like Shaco and Akali. They are strong duelists. The invisibility is a disgusting advantage. Hence the need for the old oracle.
Pierce The Veal1 votesI feel like one thing needs to be considered here. Stealth champions.
Stealth champions generally excel at getting around / to their targets unseen, and as we all know, pink wards are a direct counter to that.
Let's take a look at some of the stealth champions in this game:
You may notice I have left out
Now champions that are directly countered by pink wards:
Ok so what is the big deal right, some champions are countered by pinks and I want to counter them late game.. Well here is the thing... Most stealth champs that are shut down by pinks are ALSO given trouble by teams that group.
So what happens late game, when people run out of space for pinks? THEY JUST SO HAPPEN TO BE GROUPING AT THE SAME TIME. Here is why we don't want pink wards to exist in the middle of lategame teamfights:
Look, I get why you would want this, however I hope that if you read this, you can see how this lategame lack of space for pinks is an intentional balance choice.
TL;DR we can buff those champions after we add a pink ward slot, right?
Spaceman5pff1 votesIm no balance expert, but i think the champs would need buffs so large that they dont need stealth to do their job haha
Pierce The Veal1 votesIm no balance expert, but i think the champs would need buffs so large that they dont need stealth to do their job haha
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Hey as long as they get buffs.
CurlyFriezzz1 votesI feel like one thing needs to be considered here. Stealth champions.
Stealth champions generally excel at getting around / to their targets unseen, and as we all know, pink wards are a direct counter to that.
Let's take a look at some of the stealth champions in this game:
You may notice I have left out
Now champions that are directly countered by pink wards:
Ok so what is the big deal right, some champions are countered by pinks and I want to counter them late game.. Well here is the thing... Most stealth champs that are shut down by pinks are ALSO given trouble by teams that group.
So what happens late game, when people run out of space for pinks? THEY JUST SO HAPPEN TO BE GROUPING AT THE SAME TIME. Here is why we don't want pink wards to exist in the middle of lategame teamfights:
Look, I get why you would want this, however I hope that if you read this, you can see how this lategame lack of space for pinks is an intentional balance choice.
If this would've been implemented Rengar might not've been nerfed so hard.
Vodier6 votesHere's an idea. When you buy a sightstone you can use your trinket slot for pink wards.
TallyZrg6 votesOr riot should develop a pink trinket alteration so we can actually have decisions to make with upgrading our trinket.
AninLegions7773 votesThey made one before. They removed it.
TallyZrg2 votesI'm aware, I played all of season 4/5 when it was in the game.
AninLegions7772 votesYour wording suggests otherwise. Might want to change that.
TallyZrg2 votesOr riot should develop a pink trinket alteration so we can actually have decisions to make with upgrading our trinket.
I don't know how much more clear I could be. Maybe you need to improve your reading comprehension.
AninLegions7773 votessigh You just had to get aggressive. Well, I'll still teach you. You said this:
Or riot should _**develop **_a pink trinket alteration so we can actually have decisions to make with upgrading our trinket.
Notice there is emphasis on develop which in that context means to make/bring to existence something which has already been done. Hence your error. Develop shouldn't be used. Reintroduce is much better. You have been educated.
Bolwinkel5 votesWe had one last year. It was called a trinket upgrade.
statelesskiller3 votesthis
i remember being told by a daimond guy when i was a tank bitching about vaynes overloaded kit that one of the best counters to vayne are pink wards . . . but like we where full build so its like WHAT THE FUCK DO I DO
Astôlfo2 votesWow, maybe you should listen to them then, considering they're a completely different WORLD of skill from you?
statelesskiller2 votesread. everyone was full build. THERE WAS NO ROOM FOR PINK WARDS. it is literally impossible to use his advice because at that point in the game pink wards are not a option
KarKzz1 votesOne less item > Vayne freely rampaging. The support is the best candidate, but if you tell them and they don't do it, do it yourself. (Well, unless you are the ADC / APC)
ForeverLaxx2 votesNo, it's not. You sacrifice one precious item for a pink ward so that you can actually kill the enemy that's already killing you with a "full build". You kill them, because now they can't use their stealth to survive longer than they should and win the game because their carry is dead and you're not.
It's really not that complicated to figure out. Just because you have 6 item slots does not mean you have to fill them all with big-ticket items, despite Riot's insistence that it's the entire point.
statelesskiller1 votesso your saying . . . that in order to use the "proper counter" to a champion. i need to give up a expensive gold item . . . for pink ward (can you buy multiple pink wards that then stack in the same slot? ive never tried buying more then 1 at a time) if your ask me. no matter who you are thats not worth. lets use the game i did this as a good example.
i was a udyr. and my build consisted of. warrior (i was tiger stance dyr) swifties frozen heart hydra zz rot and a banshees. now as udyr. there is not a single item in that build that i would sell for a pink ward. none of it. absolutely none. i was split pushing because i was ahead and i used the rot to apply pressure in the top while i was in bot. i had warrior for obviouse reasons. hydra because i needed lifesteal and wave clear. swifties because swifties. frozen heart because vayne and CDR and banshees because of the spell shield and MR.
i could not even for a moment entertain the thought that selling just one of those items to deal with vayne was worth. i could get rid of banshees sure. but all that does is make me vulnerable to her CC which even if i had a pink ward she would condemm me into a wall and i was dead anyways so that cant happen. cant get rid of rot warrior or frozen heart cause those are core for the strategy i was doing (and i won the game by doing anyways) and i cant get rid of hydra because then i would have no wave clear. so what? sell boots? thats stupid on alot of people. and if i did that then i DEFINITELY couldn't do anything to vayne
every item i build (as with anyone really) you build for a REASON. and even a rampaging vayne does not give you enough reason to remove a entire item for a single pink ward that could MAYBE possibly help you kill her
this even matters to the support. i mean they only have 3 item slots (they build support item sightstone and boots (kinda sorta maybe i dont build the ward support item that much)) or two depending. but you know that they have tons of useful items to build. they can get locket randuins frozen gauntlet ardent censer mikaels and alot of those items are simply more valuable and useful then a mere single pink ward that COULD be helpful
im sorry but if the only way to beat a vayne thats doing well is to literally regress your build something is wrong
ForeverLaxx1 votesim sorry but if the only way to beat a vayne thats doing well is to literally regress your build something is wrong
This is the essence of counterbuilding, and the sooner you learn it the better you'll become. I'm personally sick of this notion that players should be able to "build whatever they want and still win", and when that doesn't work, they come crying for nerfs for champions that don't necessarily deserve it.
Stop making excuses and get better at the game.
AninLegions7771 votesActually you are wrong. Players SHOULDN'T have to sacrifice an item when there was an item that could do the Job properly. It was a bad change on Riot's part which has been brought up on board every now and then. I believe they'll bring back true sight (except pinks). It's paramount against stealth champs.
Also, getting a pink doesn't even guarantee much since you place it in one spot and wait. True sight follows the user allowing for easier detection. You also didn't need that last statement cos he wasn't even aggressive in anyway.
ForeverLaxx1 votesWhen you want to look for reasons to be offended, you'll get offended. And players should have to make sacrifices to their builds if they want to increase the chance of winning. If he really wanted to keep everything his items were doing, he could have sold Banshees, traded out Swiftness Boots for Merc Treads, and traded Frozen Heart for Randuins. That covers the CC he's so deathly afraid of, gives him the attack speed reduction he wants and offsets the health loss of losing Banshees. Is it a perfect cover? No, but it's a compromise that has to be weighed against just letting Vayne run rampant.
AninLegions7771 votesFirst of all, I'm not offended. Secondly, making sacrifices is okay in the examples you gave. But sacrificing a potential 2.5+k gold item just to get a 75 gold items is outrageous. That's like sacrificing a sedan for a bike simply because a bike isn't hindered by traffic. It's unreasonable. Also have in mind that a pink doesn't guarantee anything. Vayne could flash away or move away from the vision range and still kill enemies easily. So it's a disadvantage.
DarkRitual2 votesAn alternate trinket would also work. A Vision ward that times down like stealth wards. Being tied to a trinket and with a limited lifespan and possible high cooldown would help it from being too strong.
DrCyanide3 votesOr just bringing back the Pink Ward Trinket, that would work...
DarkRitual3 votesThe idea is to make it able to be used to combat stealth without making it last indefinately. Another idea: A trinket that drops a 10 second vision ward, that turns into a normal stealth ward after the initial duration ends.
Karma Deified2 votesYeah it'd be nice if we had this one extra ward-based item slot or something. Not just for pink wards but for regular wards and maybe even ward clearing items.
macromite2 voteswhat if it just uses trinket slot. simple, easy, effective.
Wolfess1 votesI miss being able to upgrade my trinket to pink version so I could take sight stone AND pink trinket for better vision control.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesIts like we miss the pink ward trinket.
FourVsFive1 votesI would not mind a special slot for pink wards, but if they do it the special slot should only be able to hold a max of 1.
8PORTHUB1 votesPink wards are an integral part of the game; don't get me wrong. The reason there's no pink ward exclusive slot is so games actually end in a timely manner (most of the time). If everyone had a pink ward and placed it in the late game, there would be so much vision compiled with the bules and yellows that no one would be able to get anything done. Right now, 50m+ games end when everyone gets to 6 items and the better strategic guess infers where the other team will be at any given moment. So if you give everyone a pink ward, the skill that one needs to guess where an enemy will be and counter it is gone and games will go on for a much longer time.