Cass's 400 stacks too much ?

Slithy·Sep 16, 2014·1 votes·896 views

Hello, sorry about my English

I barely visit this forum so I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. I used to main Cass and feel ok with the change, except her 400 stacks part. It took me more than 20 minutes to reach 400 stacks in AI game with 20+ kills and I've never reached 400 stacks in normal. I don't think the new Cass'd be picked in high level ranked so would you please make the passive more reachable for the majority, not every games last 40 + minutes, and there's no point having 30% bonus AP if you can only have that for like 5-10 minutes. I don't mind something like 300 stacks with 20% bonus AP though.

Also I'd love to see more AP items with armor beside Zhonya, it's very frustrating fighting assassins like Zed or Talon and there's almost 0 reward for being able to pressure them pre 6 while the Assassin guys have so many item options to counter APC mid. Thanks for all comments.

7 Comments

DoogmiSep 16, 20141 votes

I thought so too at first but by my fourth game with her I was able to get 300 stacks at 20 minutes but the enemy team surrendered. I am competent at last hitting a poisoned minion. But the real thing I noticed was I increased how much I harassed my opponent. I saw a dramatic difference in how many more stacks I was getting poking with q and w while still last hitting g poisoned minions with my e. I keep reading "Cass is a farm bot now" but my first couple games I had less I teraction with my enemy and I only got around 200 stacks at 30ish minutes.

brusqueSep 16, 20141 votes

This is why the 400 stacks is good, in my opinion. It's a higher number, but if you decide you're going to play Cass in a game, you need to understand that your mindset has to shift to focusing on maximizing the buffs from her passive as soon as possible. Having 300 stacks at 20 minutes is completely possible, even with a skilled opponent, as you have demonstrated. I think 400 is a good number because you really have to work for the end result -- it's hard, but when you get there it's glorious. You must harass the opponent in lane every opportunity you get, though. If you can reach the final stage of the passive before the enemy team surrenders, you have a high chance of being able to carry into the late game extremely hard.

I think Cass feels a lot like Nasus now with the mechanic of her passive. Once she has Aspect's cooldown reduction and a little bit of AP from items, she can seriously farm minions with her W and E extremely fast. As the game goes on later, Cass farms more quickly and can rack up stacks at greater and greater rate.

Perhaps the passive could be changed for other game modes where games are traditionally much shorter (like ARAM, or Dominion), but that might be pushing her into the really OP territory?

The Queen ViperSep 16, 20141 votes

I think 400 is a good number because you really have to work for the end result -- it's hard, but when you get there it's glorious. You must harass the opponent in lane every opportunity you get, though. If you can reach the final stage of the passive before the enemy team surrenders, you have a high chance of being able to carry into the late game extremely hard.

Pfff... seriously dude? 400 stacks is way too much and it's really unrealistic. First of all, you are already assuming that your enemy is stupid enough to let you harass them freely, which is most of the time NOT the case. There are many popular champs who simply just outrange you or just dodge your skillshots with high mobility, thus you are not in the position to harass them in the first place (not to mention out damaging you and killing if you get too close). You are also assuming, that your enemy is stupid enough to stay in lane and "afk farm" just like the new Cass is supposed to do... which is also not the case, especially when it comes to assassins. All they have to do, is to waveclear/shove the lane and go roaming, bam, you will never be able to reach 400 stacks within reasonable time, since you are also forgetting one important factor; rotations and grouping. Once your lane opponent has gone roaming and won the bot for your enemy team, it's highly likely that your bot and the enemy bot will rotate to mid... this will usually end the laning phase and that's the part when you say goodbye to your farming bro.

Also you are wrong, that when you get there, it supposed to be glorious... since it's quite rare nowadays that the game lasts longer than 30 minutes, so it's about IF you or your team gets to the late game, not when. Late game is not a certainty anymore, especially if you just "afk farm" all day that passive, having zero impact to the game and effectively making the game 4vs5 for your team.

I think Cass feels a lot like Nasus now with the mechanic of her passive.

Yes, she does and that's not a good thing and which is also why seeing Nasus in a game is rare. You simply cannot be so passive in this game and assume your team carries you to the late game when you can finally start making plays. It doesn't work like that.

As the game goes on later, Cass farms more quickly and can rack up stacks at greater and greater rate.

Farm in where bro? If you are already winning, farming is going to be hard since every lane is pushed to the enemy turrets. If you are losing, then sure you could maybe farm under tower if the enemies are not pushing, however it's more likely that your ADC is gonna take that CS in the middle lane. You would have to fight for CS with your own teammates ffs. Also what good does that 400 stacks bring when your team is already behind and losing? You are not gonna turn any games with a squishy, low ranged and immobile mage.

brusqueSep 16, 20141 votes

Pfff... seriously dude? 400 stacks is way too much and it's really unrealistic.

What do you propose as a better number? 300? 350? What is the margin?

Specifically in this situation, your match history shows that you've played a lot of Cass in ranked (I haven't played her a lot in ranked, but I have played her a lot in normals, so I'm curious to know more about what you're seeing in competitive mid play with her). Cass obviously excels at defeating a very specific type of mid laner, and there are a lot of situations when it's not optimal to pick her (against characters like Fizz, Ahri, and Zed, for instance--though I might play her vs. Fizz). The same thing is true about Nasus: he does well with a specific type of team composition that can fend for itself while he finds opportunities to split push while also farming.

As far as the games lasting 30 minutes thing, I could actually see this being a problem. But, I feel like it's almost the responsibility of you and your team to say, "Okay -- we're going to try a strategy where we defend our turrets for as long as possible, and draw the game out as long as possible, so that we can allow our star hypercarries to farm and become strong." This is probably unrealistic in solo queue, but in team competitive play it's a viable strategy, and it's used in the LCS all the time.

All they have to do, is to waveclear/shove the lane and go roaming, bam, you will never be able to reach 400 stacks within reasonable time, since you are also forgetting one important factor; rotations and grouping.

Yeah but, any mid laner can wave clear, shove the lane, and go roam. As in -- you can do that, too. You can be aggressive. I feel like Cass can really push her lane and actually lock her opponent at their tower for a good while. She is fantastic at punishing people right behind their turret, which helps you apply stacks to your passive as well. Obviously a good jungler is going to make their way around in good time, but so what? Presumably you've got the lane warded and you can just go back to safely farming.

Now that you mention it, though, the passive really does make it a bad idea to roam--it's a lot of wasted, valuable time. That's probably not a good thing.

Late game is not a certainty anymore, especially if you just "afk farm" all day that passive, having zero impact to the game and effectively making the game 4vs5 for your team.

I understand where you're coming from here. I hate playing with Nasus sometimes, especially when he just goes away forever and refuses to interact with the team. But I think one interesting thing about the passive now, that makes her different, is that when Cass participates in team skirmishes, even if they're not full 5v5s, she applies stacks very efficiently by damaging enemies. Nasus cannot q minions during a team fight, for instance.

So Cass can join in on rotations and can roam if she wants to, but she has to be very careful to make sure she's in a position to do damage as a result, otherwise there's no reward for the risk.

You would have to fight for CS with your own teammates ffs.

This is pretty much my largest qualm with passives like Veigar's and Nasus's. I like them, and I think they're interesting and provide depth, but it does create a sense of priority among all the gold that flows on the map. Who gets it? I think if you played with a team that was like, "we're going to do everything we can to get Cass fed and to get her snowballing," then this might be less of a problem. If you're on a roll at 20 minutes and you have 300 stacks, you're probably going to be owning everyone anyhow.

The Queen ViperSep 16, 20141 votes

What do you propose as a better number? 300? 350? What is the margin?

If we want Cass to be anywhere viable in Ranked and high elo plays, 200 stacks is the absolute maximum. It gives the opponent some incentive to at least try to shut you down. Now they don't need to, since it takes too long for Cass to go "online" ... anything beyond that just makes her unviable due that fact that "afk farming" doesn't help your team in any way.

Specifically in this situation, your match history shows that you've played a lot of Cass in ranked (I haven't played her a lot in ranked, but I have played her a lot in normals, so I'm curious to know more about what you're seeing in competitive mid play with her).

Yes, and she's not viable anymore. There are too many FoTM picks that can out range her or out dmg her. Many champs like Syndra and Xerath can just poke you out of your lane, since you cannot retaliate in any way due to low dmg Cass has early.

Cass obviously excels at defeating a very specific type of mid laner, and there are a lot of situations when it's not optimal to pick her (against characters like Fizz, Ahri, and Zed, for instance--though I might play her vs. Fizz). The same thing is true about Nasus: he does well with a specific type of team composition that can fend for itself while he finds opportunities to split push while also farming.

Well now there are so many matchups where there's no point to pick Cass into... however with the old Cass, you could do just fine against assassins for example, when you just maxed your Q first to poke them, and then used E as a finisher when they got too close or low HP. Also when running exhaust, they could never "all in" you... now, they can since Cass does so little dmg early.

As far as the games lasting 30 minutes thing, I could actually see this being a problem. But, I feel like it's almost the responsibility of you and your team to say, "Okay -- we're going to try a strategy where we defend our turrets for as long as possible, and draw the game out as long as possible, so that we can allow our star hypercarries to farm and become strong." This is probably unrealistic in solo queue, but in team competitive play it's a viable strategy, and it's used in the LCS all the time.

It could work in premade Rankeds and LCS to some extend, however there's really no point to do that when you could pick other APCs and midlaners who have much more impact during all stages of the game, instead only late. Currently her early and mid game are so weak, that they can bully Cass all day so you would probably forfeit your lane automatically... and then you would have to prey to the gods that your enemy would be stupid enough to not go roaming.

Yeah but, any mid laner can wave clear, shove the lane, and go roam. As in -- you can do that, too. You can be aggressive. I feel like Cass can really push her lane and actually lock her opponent at their tower for a good while.

She used to be a good pusher, not so much anymore. Before you get a Tear or some mana item, pushing your lane is really mana intensive and will most likely make you OOM, even if you would use your E to farm. Then you have to max E just to make your waveclear better, but then you really can't harass people with your Q due to low dmg. The new cass has to trade farming to harass. It also can be rather dangerous since you cannot poke/harass people properly or you will OOM, so there's a high chance that the enemy tries to "all in" you if you push too much. Unfortunately farming is all what the new Cass can do atm.

The Queen ViperSep 16, 20141 votes

But I think one interesting thing about the passive now, that makes her different, is that when Cass participates in team skirmishes, even if they're not full 5v5s, she applies stacks very efficiently by damaging enemies. Nasus cannot q minions during a team fight, for instance.

Well yeah she could, however her passive really doesn't work that way and many people already pointed out this flaw but RIOT says it's intentional: currently even if you poison multiple enemies, the passive only counts it as one source, so basically you won't get additional stacks for poisoning more than one enemy.

This is pretty much my largest qualm with passives like Veigar's and Nasus's. I like them, and I think they're interesting and provide depth, but it does create a sense of priority among all the gold that flows on the map. Who gets it? I think if you played with a team that was like, "we're going to do everything we can to get Cass fed and to get her snowballing," then this might be less of a problem. If you're on a roll at 20 minutes and you have 300 stacks, you're probably going to be owning everyone anyhow.

Indeed. Good CS distribution among your own team is really hard to pull off in yoloQ.

Deathless81CSep 16, 20141 votes

Yeah the current stack requirements are too high. Her max needs to be anywhere from 300-400. The biggest issue being unless your lane opponent is an idiot then gaining stacks will be rather hard on her atrocious laning phase with her current range, base stats and kit.