Wave Clear, Homogeneity, Philosophy, and you. Maybe an AP Hydra wouldn't be the worst idea.

Risemix··3 votes·1,454 views

Recently a thread floated to the top of Reddit that talked about Lux's problems with wave clear (E costs 130 mana by level 9 and doesn't do enough damage to one-shot the caster line without a significant AP investment or being really ahead). There are a lot of champions that "suffer" from this. A common response in the thread was that Lux is okay and that a few meta shifts might even bring her back into the spotlight again.

Even though I disagree about that specific point with regards to Lux herself, there are cases where this is pretty true. An example: Viktor isn't a great pick at the moment IMO but he's a strong champion and could easily see play if some of the more popular champions and comps were to shift around a bit.

The place where this becomes less true is with regards to wave clear. Wave clear is, like jungle clear, a PvE element. I don't think very many mages take advantage of an "increased damage to minions" mechanic (save for Ziggs' ult), so that means their raw damage output vs. champions (in lane trades in this case) directly relates to their ability to clear waves of minions. If you reduce a champion's wave clear you tend to also reduce their trading capability and mid-game skirmish power. Since mages tend to be mid-game focused champions to begin with (some do have a stronger early or late game, but almost all of them are most potent mid-game), wave clear appears naturally as an eventuality of mages just having AoE damage and needing to do damage to Dudes.

So the only way a champion with poor wave clear will ever become more desirable is if other champions also have less damage without their ultimates overall (because normally and especially in the case of Lux, a lot of their damage is loaded into ultimates). But is wave clear a problem? If so, when is it a problem? If wave clear is something that is sort of required for a champion to be desirable, then why doesn't every mage get to have it? I don't think it's a question of homogenization; aoe damage and thus wave clear is a feature of the class... mages having wave clear isn't anymore of an offense than all AD carries hitting hard with auto attacks.

I thought about this and have come to the conclusion that Riot might be flip-flopping internally on this subject a bit. Wave clear is a big enough thing that if your champion doesn't have it, they aren't often played despite all of their other strengths (see: AP Ezreal), but a champion might be balanced around a certain ability costing X amount and providing X benefits. Sure, Lucent Singularity is expensive and the damage to minions isn't that great, but it also back loads a bunch of damage into her ultimate, provides vision, and oppressive lane harass.

So, TL;DR:

What are the benefits and and disadvantages of the existence of wave clear item, similar to Hydra, for AP champions that don't have the greatest wave clear naturally?

No idea what this might look like... after using an ability, your next basic attack does magic damage to minions in an area around the minion targeted by the attack... something like that.

9 Comments

NorthernDruid2 votes

Make it a mana item, or a new 120AP+CDR item. With a component you can rush.

Make the rush component be a neutral thing which increases % damage vs minions, and figure out some other cool things it can build into.

So that anyone can build into being a splitpusher if they need to, and not just the melee's who can benefit from Hydra.

LilxPaprika1 votes

imo shen could use an ap wave clear item but he doesnt use mana :(

NorthernDruid2 votes

120 AP 10% CDR Spells/abilities deal 50-100% greater damage vs minions, single target spells/abilities also deal splash damage ala Hydra.

Builds from

60-80AP Spells/abilities deal 25-50% greater damage vs minions.

If they wanna be really really nice to the mage crowd they throw in some mana or mana regen as well.

DoFr2 votes

so Basically you're suggesting an iceborn Gauntlet passive but Mainly for AP instead?

something in the mix between iceborn and lichbane? ...and hydra perhaps?

needless to say, whatever item you're suggesting might actually affect the entire mid lane (and a bit top) to a whole new level. and might aswell be a bit of fix to the mages current situation.

however, the real question is how much mana is it going to take to actually wave clear WITH this "item" ever since the mana reg have been changed people have been carefully trying to handle their mana.

ironically, lichbane does give mana.

so it only requires a bit of tweaking it, into an AoE...

hmm..that actually might do justice to lichbane after it's nerf..

Riot, give this man what he wants

LilxPaprika1 votes

maybe an item that gives your spells and auto attacks like a bleed or dot onto minions.

Darth Pixy Misa1 votes

Lux needs a better ap ratio on e and either more as or more time on illumination.

NoFunWithNunu1 votes

not really, she has really good clearwave, if you increase ratio on E she will burst way harder late game, not every champ is designed to shine in every phase, she could use some love on her passive

aaronconlin1 votes

A while ago I proposed an item similar to this, I think it was item 3077 and item 3057, but can't really remember. Basically, after using an ability, your next basic attack deals 75% base AD + x% AP to the target and surrounding targets. Everyone seemed to hate it

Done251 votes

Hydra was a bad idea and should never have made it into the game. It gives single target champions that should never have had easy/free farm (Fiora, Shaco, Yi, Tiger Udyr, etc) a way to VERY quickly wipe out waves no matter how big they are. Which of course puts pressure on Mages/Tanks with low/expensive wave clear like Lux.

I dare you to find ANY mage that can clear as fast and resource efficiently as a (pre-nerf Rek'Sai/Zed) with Hydra. The only ones I can think who even come close are Anivia and Karthus.

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