Normalizing Ammo-based abilities on champs (Vi, Vel'Koz, Zyra, etc.)

Zaapp·Nov 22, 2014·23 votes·3,134 views

It stands out to me that Vel'Koz, when taking his first level in W, starts with 2 charges ready to go. Meanwhile, Zyra, Corki, and Vi (and others) have similar ammo-based abilities but only start with a single charge, having to wait for the restock delay to get another. Could we get some normalization here? As someone who plays Vi in the jungle but likes to pick their first ability late in case of invades, I'm jealous of Vel's ability to instantly start with 2 charges. Corki and others whose ultimates are ammo-based should probably only start with 1, but if any champ gets a basic ability that starts with full charges, they all should.

41 Comments

ULTRAF0RCENov 22, 20143 votes

How about have vel koz not start at two charges since heim like that would be super annoying

Lord DusteonNov 22, 20142 votes

How about have vel koz not start at two charges since heim like that would be super annoying

Doesn't heim normally start Q to begin with and make a turret nest before minions spawn?

ULTRAF0RCENov 22, 20141 votes

maybe but I really don't want to imagine him with them if he doesn't start q

Kowe The EwokNov 23, 20141 votes

Which requires your opponent to be idle. Any smart opponent won't allow you to do so and will thanks you for the free early gold.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 23, 20142 votes

Nope. He can only have 1. It depends on the matchup. Sometimes rockets at level is the better option, especially during invades and counterinvades.

AetherKingdomNov 23, 20149 votes

How about have vel koz not start at two charges since heim like that would be super annoying

Except he wouldn't, Heimer max turret charge at rank 1 is one, and then scales to 3 at rank 5

ULTRAF0RCENov 23, 20147 votes

OyddAWqJ5rNov 23, 20143 votes

hahaha best reply

AbodyHUN666Nov 22, 20143 votes

why would you not start with W on Vi jungle??

Remlap1223Nov 22, 20142 votes

You serious? You can't proc her passive on her W (that would be super OP and super inconvenient at the same time), and in the new jungle, she's going to need all the sustain she can get.

MEMEME670Nov 22, 20142 votes

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Vi Would say that starting W is your best option.

Remlap1223Nov 22, 20141 votes

Here's why I start E first. E will proc Vi's passive, and in the new jungle where the monsters will just chunk your shit if you're not careful, this is a necessity. In addition, E also provides AOE damage and resets the attack timer, allowing you to quickly burst down targets. The attack speed in her W is nice, but I wait and take that second, when I really need to start hammering down the monsters. Maybe I might change my mind for the new jungle, but I doubt it. I'm not a pro, but I'm a pretty decent Vi player.

MEMEME670Nov 22, 20144 votes

Okay, you seem to have missed the point.

There are 2 possible scenarios here.

The pro players are right, you are wrong, and taking W first is correct.
You are right, the pro players are wrong, and taking E first is correct.

Which do you think is realistically more likely to be true?

Potato DocNov 22, 20146 votes

Just saying, I took dragon at 5 mins on the old rift and still do it on the new rift, start w. I know you want to use her passive but if you start W your jungle is faster and oddly enough I take less damage.

To each their own you can continue starting E if you would like but Im going to promise you taking W isnt a bad choice either

Vellich0rNov 23, 20142 votes

W provides % health damage which is actually stronger in the new jungle, that in addition to the attack speed bonus is really strong.

Samflash3Nov 23, 20141 votes

Do you press E 4 seconds before the monsters summon? I do that so that I get E back up faster, do bonus damage, get the passive charge used earlier and land 3 E's instead of 2 in a 10 second duration.

AbodyHUN666Nov 23, 20141 votes

Since you get a pull (why would you not get one?) you don't take much damage and the W gives you %max health damage and armor shred too. But I guess I was teached to start W when I picked up Vi and stuck with the W start.

iainB85Nov 22, 20143 votes

Why do they need to be normalized? They are different for balance reasons.

If Corki started with a full barrage of missiles as soon as he hit 6 it would be pretty devastating in lane.

ZaappNov 23, 20142 votes

Hence why I mention that ultimates should be excluded, but there are a lot of basic abilities with 2 charges max, it doesn't seem any less balanced to normalize them all to either start with both or start with 1.

Hyrum GraffNov 23, 20143 votes

3: In a pro environment, W is better, at his level, E is better.

MegarolfNov 23, 20143 votes

Because velkoz getting two free stacks on his w isn't op. Plus hes most likely going to use it on the wave.

Remlap1223Nov 23, 20143 votes

Or, option 3, it's your goddamn preference. I prefer to have a good early sustain.

ReturnOfSamusNov 23, 20141 votes

As much as I like to take moderate positions, one of the others is objectively right here.

You lose less health by starting W because you clear faster. 1 50 health shield on your first camp is not worth having to spend extra time (and thus health) taking damage. Mathematically, you take more damage by starting E, and then at level 2 you have both (so it doesn't matter then). Starting W is better in every way unless you are fighting enemy champions at level 1.

HayaishiNov 22, 20142 votes

Velkoz has 2 charges and Corki has 6.

Corki's an ultimate and Vel is a normal ability.

ZaappNov 23, 20142 votes

I mention this in my last statement, that ultimates should probably be excluded to avoid massive damage spikes as soon as you hit 6.

kDrakariNov 23, 20142 votes

... Why is the only thing people are talking about here what ability to start on Vi?

Regardless, I think it's fine to normalize it one way or the other just for consistency's sake, probably err on the side of everybody starting with 1 charge to make it a tiny nerf to Vel'Koz rather than a much larger buff to Corki. Alternatively, they could just say everybody starts with 2 since any ammo system will have at least two as its max. Still, I don't think it's really a big deal compared to a lot of other balance and clarity issues, among other things.

Vellich0rNov 23, 20142 votes

except high level players tend to start W

ZaappNov 23, 20141 votes

It can depend on the leash, I think. If someone's there to help you get it faster, then having the shield to absorb the first hit, plus 2 AA resets, you can get through it fast enough that the difference in your AS doesn't matter much. It's just burst vs sustained damage at that point. Pros are probably used to getting minor/nonexistent leashes.

Kowe The EwokNov 23, 20141 votes

Ask Heimer.... Rank that ability to 3 just to get 2 ammo. Rank that ability to 5 in order to get your thrid stack...

Other characters are actually allowed to benefit from stacks....

GorgannanNov 23, 20141 votes

Taking E and taking W accomplish different goals. Which are the pros trying to do? Which are yours?

Remlap1223Nov 23, 20141 votes

I'm not saying W is a bad choice, I just take it second because I prefer to stack the charges on her E and then use that to better utilize her W. To each their own, but I play by my rules, nobody elses. If I just jerked off to eSports, I wouldn't have discovered J4, Nautlius, and Gangplank supports, and I sure as hell didn't discover Quinn top because of eSports.

AbodyHUN666Nov 23, 20141 votes

but doing your first clear in the jungle isn't about "your way", it's about having the most health and time efficent way. We need someone to compare the two starts.

EvilRabbittNov 23, 20141 votes

Sir, thanks. =) Made my day. Had to explain to a friend this same thing. You just upped my sarcastic response count by 2. PROPS! =D

Xela SyabNov 23, 20141 votes

I hate Vel's low mana costs. He just seems to poke all day and never runs out of mana.

AlëkNov 23, 20141 votes

Okay, you seem to have missed the point.

There are 2 possible scenarios here.

The pro players are right, you are wrong, and taking W first is correct.

You are right, the pro players are wrong, and taking E first is correct.

Which do you think is realistically more likely to be true?

ur comparing pro players to normal players. Pros are on a completely different level of understanding in this game. the best option is to start with E because it procs passive. whether or not pros use it, it is the most obviously effective method. I'm assuming if you saw pros jump into a lizard whole. you would do it too right. k

OnegarionNov 23, 20142 votes

You actually don't save any damage from procing your passive as vi with E. You eventually take more damage and take longer to clear the buff. W is actually better for overall wave clear. Now i haven't ran the sepcific numbers in the new jungle, but I wouldn't expect them to change much at all. Given jungle camps hurt more now and you heal less meaning you should take more overall damage from them if it takes you longer to clear.

Remlap1223Nov 23, 20141 votes

I haven't jungled Vi yet in the new jungle. The pros already have by the looks of it. So I might have to switch it up. I think we can both agree it's personal preference, but if you think the clear will overcome the lack of sustain, I'll give it a shot.

ReturnOfSamusNov 23, 20141 votes

This ^

I haven't done the math, but I've tried both. The shield at level 1 is pretty small, and it plus the benefits of E just don't outweigh the benefits of the W.

Remlap1223Nov 23, 20141 votes

I coulda swore that it drops only when you hit the minion, does the cooldown start the instant you press? I know I always press E before the second charge is stored because every second counts.