Why do we continue to nerf mages with point-and-click abilities, but make mobile assassins?

SmoothBrainIdiot·May 30, 2015·108 votes·5,692 views

It almost feels as if Riot does not want us to have a champion with an answer to mobility. We get that can free form dash AND teleport to any target he attacks, but people like get shafted into a new skill shot that makes him unable to compete with it. gets half his kit changed because of play in LCS, yet has been EVERYWHERE since the beginning of time. She even still has a point-and-click! How can you pass up high damage, CC, and 4 possible teleports on low cooldowns? You don't. Hell, soon will be changed to have some dumb gimmick where if you gold card you have to click W and toss it in a line or something like that. Can we get some champions that make assassins think twice about going in? I feel like are some of the last point and clicks in the game, but they have all been either nerfed or underplayed due to low mobility.

This is mostly just me venting but I would like to know an answer. Are we doing away with old designed abilities, or are there other reasons for it. I want to hear the philosophy. I hope Riot responds as well.

82 Comments

SlytherinUmbreonMay 30, 201542 votes

Because assassins are extremely fun to play as and not even remotely frustrating to play against, unlike mages who are the exact opposite and need to be removed from the game. #Strategic Diversity

AudiomancyMay 30, 201517 votes

{quoted}

Because assassins are extremely fun to play as and not even remotely frustrating to play against, unlike mages who are the exact opposite and need to be removed from the game. #Strategic Diversity

Sarcasm is hard to understand on the internet.

UiruMay 30, 20152 votes

Not as hard as you might- ooooh I see what's going on ~Uiru

blueberrypancakeMay 30, 201511 votes

#Can'tUnderstandSarcasmWithoutKappa

The SoulforgedMay 30, 20151 votes

To be fair, we don't know if he's trolling or using sarcasm. I'm guessing sarcasm, but he might be a troll who doesn't know how to phrase what he says in a troll way.

Noam BraumskyMay 30, 20151 votes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

SlytherinUmbreonMay 30, 20151 votes

It's just fun to wait and see if anyone realizes it wasn't serious.

DerrarMay 30, 20152 votes

Because Mages are so fun to play against, all having some form of CC and huge burst, all in the fog of war. Unlike the assassins who need to get close and should be removed from the game.

Sarcasm off

Mages aren't always that fun to play against, overtune their damage a bit and you get ranged assassins with CC everywhere. It just happens to be that some assassins are overtuned or horrible to play against at the moment (LeBlanc is horrible to play against, Ekko's shield is way too strong and Kata her point and click damage is too hight)

Now that I am talking about point and click anyways, it has little to no counterplay. Either stay out of range, or get hit. Point and click is not ALWAYS bad, but if it has CC on it, it will be a problem most likely. Skillshots offer some way to outplay the opponent which point and click does not.

It Hertz When IPMay 30, 20157 votes

No one (no one intelligent, at least) is arguing that skillshots don't offer more counterplay. The problem is that point-and-click is the most reliable way to deal with high mobility champions, and it is steadily being phased out of the game.

NilokMay 30, 20152 votes

The better question isn't "do skill shots offer more counterplay", but instead, "do skill shots offer better counterplay".

The answer to that is complicate and dependent on individual champions. Is it better for counterplay to have every ability a skill shot? No, it is not, that is instead limiting design and removing a counterplay against mobility based champions.

If point-and-click abilities are removed from League of Legends entirely, it would be a bad sign for the game as the design team has begun limiting themselves and I suspect players would begin leaving, especially players on the east coast that have much higher ping than players on the west coast.

So far Riot has stated that they have no plans on removing point-and-click abilities entirely from the game. I would like them to pull back on the initiative on changes earlier champion's point-and-clicks into skill shots without a full rework, or even adding new champions (that are balanced) that are primarily point-and-click based with low mobility.

Stiv1234May 30, 20156 votes

Guess what has no counterplay without point-and-clicks?

My Desired NameMay 30, 201515 votes

Mobility is cancer.

RamuhdoMay 30, 201511 votes

You forgot a point-and-click. Katarina Understandable, she's more difficult to play than Veigar after all, if the difficulty ratings are to be believed.

I think Anivia is one of those mages who could probably use a bit of a review considering the rising mobility of enemies, and the missile speed of her Q.

MannysmokerMay 30, 20151 votes

I know the Q speed is so slow that you can go afk, go pee and eat something and still you're able to dodge it.....they need to buff Anivia Q speed and give her a new splash art, she have the same since beta...which is ludicrous..

DiminishedACMay 31, 20151 votes

I love everything that is Anivia! Her Q is slow, sure, but that is what allows it to have so much power behind it. With proper positioning, you're able to hit 1 enemy with both the passing damage AND the explosion damage, creating a 1:1 AP ratio skill, combined with her E that is also doubled because of the slow passive proc, making it a 1:1 AP ratio as well, means that she can have this crazy high damage and not be without counterplay.

Earl EulrichMay 30, 20153 votes

don´t touch Anivia, she´s perfect the way she is!

NarasimhaMay 30, 201511 votes

Because point-and-click abilities are, by their nature, harder to balance than skill shots. With the former, theres a lot less tuning options. You can hit the numbers, or you can hit the range. If its skill shot based, you have more avenues to adjust. Missile width, missile speed, range, damage, etc. Plus, point-and-click has the inherent frustration of zoning that comes with it. Everyone's experienced it with Annie. Once she has her stun up, there becomes an area around her where you don't want to enter, simply because you'll be stunned and there's nothing you can do about it.

BluePolarizerMay 30, 201517 votes

DOTA is statistically more balanced than league (greater hero variety in pro play, less snowballing due to tiny initial leads, more team comps possible with different lane assignments), yet 90% of skills are either point and click or instant AOE. It also happens that mobility in DOTA is actually a huge tradeoff and mobile heroes either require a crap ton of gold to not suck or have very low damage; the heroes that are both mobile and have high base damage are usually pick or ban just like League (surprise, surprise, surprise).

NarasimhaMay 30, 20158 votes

It also makes a considerable difference that items in DOTA are just as, if not more important, than in League. Does your hero have low mobility? Get Yasha and its upgrades. Are you a squishy and want to be safe, but don't want to build tanky? Get Shadow Blade. Lack hard CC? There's items for that too!

the heroes that are both mobile and have high base damage are usually pick or ban just like League (surprise, surprise, surprise).

Also, I must honestly ask if you've played ranked at DoTA at a decent level. Heroes like BH, Void, Weaver (well, now and then), or even Storm Spirit are very rarely banned. Most bans go to strong split pushers (DP, Lycan, etc), or heroes with incredible team fight potential (Miriana, Batrider, etc.)

BluePolarizerMay 30, 20152 votes

Mirana is extremely mobile. Same with Lycan.

Back when I played QOP was pick or ban.

Void is not anywhere near as mobile as Mirana, QOP or Lycan. BH is essentially immobile. Storm Spirit requires a crap ton of gold.

NarasimhaMay 30, 20152 votes

Neither of them have burst though. Hell, Lycan is all about sustained damage.

QoP is still pretty common. Less now though, especially with some of the new items.

Void is not AS mobile, but I don't think it can be disputed that he is still mobile.

How is BH immobile? Track + Shadow Walk is a good deal of mobility.

And eh, for Storm Spirit, its worth it. He hits like greased lightning with Blood Stone and Dagon.

BluePolarizerMay 30, 20151 votes

I didn't say burst damage, I said base damage. QOP and Mirana's base damages are huge for how mobile they are.

Bounty, in league terms, is about as mobile as Udyr, which is to say, pretty much immobile in an actual fight but good for running away or chasing down other immobiles.

NarasimhaMay 30, 20151 votes

And....this is the point where I need to go to sleep >.> My bad on that one.

Regardless, Mirana isn't even that bad. Her damage comes from landing a long Arrow, and her mobility isn't even that strong. At best, a 16% MS boost for 10 seconds.

I mean, mobility isn't that present in DOTA fights. Especially in team fights, where everyone is either trying to kill the carry or just blow everything up. Its good either for chasing or for getting away, which is really when it matters.

BluePolarizerMay 30, 20151 votes

depends on who the carry is. Strength carries can't really be focused down, but despite their extreme tankiness and damage, they still get outcarried by antimage due to his mobility alone.

Nobody picks antimage for his damage or tankiness because he has none without items. He also has no steroids. He is solely picked, as a hypercarry in a 4 protect 1 comp, due to his mobility.

NarasimhaMay 30, 20151 votes

True, but there are very few strength carries for that reason. I think Earth Spirit was the last one we got? Plus, with strength heroes, its more efficient to go bruiser rather than full carry.

And I'm still convinced people only pick AM to point and laugh when the opponent runs oom. Most frustrating thing ever, I swear. Though if its mobility, I'd argue that PA or PL do just as well in that department. They can't escape as well, but their engages are much stronger.

Perpetual BlurMay 30, 20152 votes

I'm a Dota main, and you both have been away for a while. ;) Roughly half the strength heros are carries (Wraith King, Alchemist, Bristleback, Kunkka, Huskar, etc.).

AM is primarily picked for farm speed; he's a lot more like Draven than KogMaw in that way. Basically, you can get six-slotted when their team's carry is 4-slotted. Also to counter a lot of the intelligence carries and medusa...

Highest pro ban rates for this patch are:

Undying (immobile)
QoP (highly mobile)
IO (mobility enabler)
Gyro (immobile)
Broodmother (somewhat mobile; only boosted move speed, but spammable stealth)
Visage (immobile)
Viper (immobile AND super slow)
Shadow Fiend (immobile)

You don't ban mobile heros because of their mobility, you pick silences and hard cc. Of the mobile heros banned:

QoP is banned because of simultaneous assassin and teamfight threat, which are both highly valued now.
IO for his ability to make one carry a super duper carry.
Broodmother because she's the easiest counter to a team that lacks good AoE clear.

The mobility is an important part of their kit, but it isn't the part that makes them banworthy. With the exception of IO sometimes, in some teams.

MohawkBirdMay 30, 20151 votes

[deleted]

BluePolarizerMay 30, 20153 votes

DOTA has less snowballing because of itemization and shutdown gold. If you played jungle before, you might have found that even after camping your 0-3 feeding top and making them 2-3 doesn't actually help them come back, and the minute you leave, they're dead again. Why? Because the enemy top already had the first mover advantage and snowballed their kill advantage into an EXP and item advantage, which allows them to CS and zone better, which allows them an even bigger EXP and item advantage... etc etc. In DOTA, if you gank the enemy side lane solo twice, you're giving your lane shutdown gold AND taking gold away from the enemy, while your solo laner doesn't have that much gold to lose since he was already feeding, so he comes out even again despite the enemy's previous snowballing.

In addition, item power is nonlinear and increasing; bigger items are both more gold efficient and slot efficient, so in league you can't really build some cheap mid-game items to catch up the way you can in DOTA; cheap mid-game items are actually for snowballing even harder.

And statistically, a 1000 gold advantage at 10 minutes is a bigger deal in league than in DOTA (the team with the advantage wins more often).

MonoblairMay 30, 20152 votes

zoning can be turned into less of an issue by making it refund mana if it is used for last hitting and changing mana costs, this way it turns into a "i can use this skill to harass but i can't sit there and chuck it at my opponent whenever it goes off cd" without possibly having to in exchange nerf the spells dmg/range

Worst Mid EverMay 30, 20158 votes

season 2 meta long range AP mage afk farming mid with no kill pressure adc afk farming with a passive healer support weak ganking jungler afk farming jungle with gp10 items top being the only interesting lane with kill pressure and outplay potential goal is to afk farm till 30 then have one fight over dragon that decides the entire game

season 5 meta mids need to play mobile assassins so they can roam, get solo kills and out rotate lane opponent for jungle skirmishes tops are running teleport to have larger game impact as early as possible instead of waiting for 6 on shen in season 2 supports are able to roam effectively now even before tower goes down or pre 6, and can also make plays with their aggressive supports that actually have engages junglers are able to gank more effectively because everyone has higher kill pressure with mobility, cc and burst

dont know about you but i prefer the modern meta, and its only there because mid assassins speed up the game by creating more kill opportunities and forcing earlier fights in the side lanes or jungle, these mobile cc burst champions also allow more skill gaps between players, you wouldn't have players like Faker or Madlife who stand out because the players like Froggen who stood out back then only stood out for farming more wraith camps

BernMay 30, 20157 votes

It's because skillshots vs. mobility (oh, I can juke this nid spear while I move in to attempt to charm) is a more interesting gameplay interaction than something like Annie Q with stun vs. Annie Q with stun (oh look, neither of us can go near the other because if we do we take tons of damage). It raises the skillcap of the game and allows people to take more risks.

Blades of NavoriMay 30, 20155 votes

Mages are nerfed the most. In my opinion they aren't that creative either. Their abilities aren't...original? The most creative mages are

Heimerdinger Syndra and Orianna

Every other mage is like this: Skill Shot Here , Slow/Stun Here, long cool down Here, and typical ult that does no damage unless the specific conditions are met. They also talk about power CONSTANTLY. Power this, I need moar power, this isn't my final form!!

Heim builds turrets and Syndra and Orianna manipulate spheres. Very unique attacks and ways to attack. Am I the only one that feels this way? I hate to admit it but DoTA (Yes, DoTA on a league discussion GASP) has much more creative mages. Need proof?

Invoker>Creates spells on the go and has very unique quotes that fit him well. " I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance."

Crystal Maiden>Seems like a generic ice mage right? Dude she conjures meteors from the sky. Need I say more?

Puck>This guy actually shifts through dimensions unlike Reksai. Amazing effects and rather unique abilities.

Honestly we need a complete mage rework. More creativity put into them like the fighters and assassins. We have creative Sion who can throw minions and smash his axe into the ground like a man, Draven who throws axes like a beast, Sejuani who rides a fricken boar into battle...the list goes on. But the mages? Lame Passive, Skill Shot Here , Slow/Stun Here, long cool down Here, and typical ult that does no damage unless the specific conditions are met.

Seriously am I the only one that feels this way?

DrukyulMay 30, 20152 votes

I think how it works for Riot is that creative mages end up becoming supports in development.

Blades of NavoriMay 30, 20152 votes

Yeah that makes sense. Every support is unique (Save for heals and shields, they are staple support abilities). Sona can make people dance B)

Most mages however they have your stereo type mage abilities. Magic missile, magic stun, magic power...

kunkudunkMay 30, 20151 votes

Azir is unique for a mage imo. But back then yeah the mages were all just different forms of burst with some cc thrown in. Until ori was released anyway. You got brand and annie and anivia and ryze(less burst but still just damage) and veigar and well yeah burst mages were generic for a while.

Blades of NavoriMay 30, 20151 votes

He is rather Unique yes...I just never see anyone play him so I forgot about him. "Back then" nothing they're still the same. 99% of the mages now are different forms of burst with CC. Ryze and Annie have less CC but still nothing unique about them. Heck they're really the same. They both have a powerful skill shot, a way to stun/root, and both of their ults are more passive. Annie summons something and Ryze gains spell vamp. Ryze actually has CC, it comes from his ult.

Mages are still the same..

BluePolarizerMay 30, 20152 votes

Most of the "creative" and "complex" mages with unique playstyles are mage/supports like old Karma (basically AP Olaf; gets AP based on missing health and has ridiculous amounts of nukes/shields), Janna mid, Soraka mid/top, Lulu anywhere, etc.

They got gutted in favor of "skillshot CC, point and click stun, random utility spell, ult that nukes stuff" mages.

I believe Fiddlesticks should be added to your list of mages with unique playstyles. He's currently one of the only AP junglers in the game and has a VERY unique playstyle due to his channeling skills that deal ridiculous damage.

Also, the equivalent of Puck in league is Fizz - both are mobile, untargettable magic damage assassins.

DragonfaceMay 30, 20153 votes

I'll answer your question simply

Riot doesn't give a fuck about anyone under Plat tier, therefore, they're gonna do everything in their power to make their SMALLEST amount of income, but the face of their company, have more fun and be happy, compared to the vast majority of people, like us Gold and under, who spend hundreds of dollars across a few months just to buy new stuff, ONLY because no one sees us in the gaming community. They only care about if the pros are happy or not, they don't honestly care about us lower levels, except on a level of $$$.

DengedenMay 30, 20152 votes

Ryze and Veigar Q have very forgiving projectile speeds and ranges. Veigar's rework was unfortunate not intentional.

Other than that, you're delusional: TF isn't getting reworked; LB completely fell out of the meta after her silence was removed; Annie sees tons of play as a support; you completely forgot about ADCs somehow (Urgot and Trist have hard CC for ults to boot)

RetillinMay 30, 20155 votes

I'm sorry what? When did LB fall out of the meta? She's the most played champ by the top 10 ranked players in both NA and EU. Not to mention she is still in a lot of the pro games in all 5 of the major leagues.

DengedenMay 30, 20152 votes

When did LB fall out of the meta?

...

LB completely fell out of the meta after her silence was removed

You people...

SlytherinUmbreonMay 30, 20156 votes

{quoted}

...

You people...

...

{quoted}

I'm sorry what? When did LB fall out of the meta? She's the most played champ by the top 10 ranked players in both NA and EU. Not to mention she is still in a lot of the pro games in all 5 of the major leagues.

She still pick or ban in Competetive play, even after her silence removal. What he's saying is: You're wrong, she never fell out. I'm sorry, you're the one who's delusional. Here, have just a taste. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8JLyqib2Ko

DepóngoMay 30, 20152 votes

Recently many assassins have been nerfed, including LeBlanc, which is also getting another nerf soon.

PartholonianMay 30, 20152 votes

And they're also nerfing item 3285 , which is mainly used by high mobility AP burst champions, i.e. assassins and assassin-mages.

SluicewayMay 30, 20152 votes

Among the mages you list, you missed my (former) favorite, Soraka . Here was a mage who could zone an assassin off of farm with her Starcall spamming (the version that hit everything in an aoe around her), silence them on an all in, and heal herself out sustain them in lane, all of which gave her outplay (the only thing op really stands for) potential against mobile assassin, The difference between mages and assassin is that the majority of mages cannot make flashy "LCS Big Plays," and are, instead, firm foundations from which a team can snowball to victory, though, of course, they have to be played well to achieve this. But, for some strange reason cough LCS sponsers cough they rework any strong mages that see success in the LCS.

Besides Soraka (whose rework should be reverted), other victims of Riot's promotion of assassins (from reworks or neglect) include Ryze Kayle Fiddlesticks Evelynn Syndra Taric Poppy Galio Elise Rammus Quinn Zac Udyr . Let me know if I missed any, as I am sure I did. I hope I got the majority of them, at least.

Stiv1234May 30, 20152 votes

Cassiopeia , because she could bully Assassins out of lane Zilean same Lulu , who was harshly nerfed even in support Taric , who finally got a (minor) buff to his completely outdated kit Lux , who still has a 130 mana cost on a skill which cant even clear waves properly

Honestly, i dont get why they left Swain untouched for that long, considering he completely stomps any squishy who dares to get into his range into the ground. Probably only a matter of time until they make his QER skillshots...

KilaneMay 30, 20152 votes

Shhhhhh my top lane freelo.

DrezmalMay 30, 20152 votes

UPVOTE i completely agree champs like zed and ekko are impossible to hit sometimes they take away point and click cause of counter play but it sux if u have to stay still as xerath or ziggs and all these assassins are flyin around you this only isnt a problem because of the tank meta but now this just makes a champ select game which is really frustrating

Big Bang BobMay 30, 20151 votes

It's because Rito expects you to either avoid the assassin, or stay far enough away to force the mobility so they can't use it to dodge and then smack them in the face with spells. Most champs only have one form of mobility, so after that one use you have plenty of time to hit them. If they kill you too fast for you to launch out your spell after that, it wouldn't matter whether or not your attack is point and click and you should bring protection (like a tank).