I wish there was variety in AP itemization, because as it stands you'll always get the same items

ThemMushrooms·Feb 4, 2019·38 votes·14,302 views

so you can actually be a threat with access to inflated burst like the other damage classes , ,
so you can have a chance of avoiding instant death the second someone looks at you
so people can't just ignore your 500+ AP damage because they built two MR items
so you can scale and keep being relevant

You're basically stuck into always having to build these four Items as an AP champ because they're the only fucking ones we actually have to work with which severely limits what you can actually do with your remaining item slot and it feels like absolute bland boring shit to deal with every single game.

89 Comments

nm1010Feb 4, 201914 votes

Don't forget item 3165 for grievous, HP, and extra blow up squishies effect.

heroikcFeb 4, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget for grievous, HP, and extra blow up squishies effect.

Or item 3102 to ignore one enemy CC.

xZabaksxFeb 4, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Or to ignore one enemy CC.

gets hit by ezreals W

heroikcFeb 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

gets hit by ezreals W

That's not CC...

xZabaksxFeb 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That's not CC...

But it does remove your spellshield. Leaving you CC'able

heroikcFeb 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But it does remove your spellshield. Leaving you CC'able

I'm pretty sure that goes for most nonCC abilities.

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 4, 201914 votes

Titanic hydra = Bruisers Duskblade = Assassins Stormrazor = Marksmen

Ad dont have more options, they have more class types. A marksmen cant decide to go titanic hydra and assassins wont go stormrazor. You're bunching different starting item just because they give AD but they are designed for different classes.

Marksmen go either SR or BotrK. Bruisers either BC or Titanic. Assassins DB or Yommu's. Mages Luden's or tear.

I dont see how it's unfair, every class build path is pretty restrictive.

Bears Dont CareFeb 4, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Titanic hydra = Bruisers Duskblade = Assassins Stormrazor = Marksmen

Ad dont have more options, they have more class types.

Ap also possesses assassins who essentially build the same thing as burst mages. AP bruisers generally have issues with their builds. Azir is the AP equivalent of a marksmen and outside of Nashor's he tends to build similarly to burst mages.

A marksmen cant decide to go titanic hydra and assassins wont go stormrazor.

Well to be fair, titanic hydra is melee only iirc. Assassins CAN go for stormrazor but duskblade provides them CDR and vision denial. There was a brief period where it was used by talon.

You're bunching different starting item just because they give AD but they are designed for different classes.

Marksmen go either SR or BotrK. Bruisers either BC or Titanic. Assassins DB or Yommu's. Mages Luden's or tear.

I dont see how it's unfair, every class build path is pretty restrictive.

I think its more along the lines of that mages do have sub classes that are bruiser/marksmen/assassin based, but that their item line is the same. Evelynn will always go for rabadon's because she needs the AP so much more than other champions due to ability scaling.

AirKingNeoFeb 4, 20195 votes

because mage items are overpowered. That's why every AP champion buys them.

AP bruisers are a fundamentally flawed concept because building full AP is always more efficient.

AhrisFeb 5, 20191 votes

No, adc items are overpowered, and so are tank items.

My Waifu VanillaFeb 5, 20193 votes

Must be why ADC is in the dumpster right now and everyone is going out of their way to NOT build crit. There is a reason it is getting reverted.

Z3SleeperFeb 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers either BC or Titanic.

+ item 3078

boricCentaur1Feb 4, 201911 votes

ummmm no the reason there is no variety in ap is because the items do too much without losing anything like why does item 3285 do good damage and it stops you from running out of mana. Also mr items are not good like if you buy two which is hard since the passives are not good in most games you will only have 110 more mr that is not a lot and the health you get is not much too for how little mr you get.

KirbyCakeFeb 4, 20197 votes

{quoted}

ummmm no the reason there is no variety in ap is because the items do too much without losing anything like why does do good damage and it stops you from running out of mana. Also mr items are not good like if you buy two which is hard since the passives are not good in most games you will only have 110 more mr that is not a lot and the health you get is not much too for how little mr you get.

MR items are way too strong and is the main reason why you can see full AD team comps do fine but full AP team comps autolose.

MR items have much higher damage reduction than armor items due to lack of scaling of base MR and AD champions doing overinflated damage due to scaling armor.

wolviusFeb 4, 20193 votes

{quoted}

MR items are way too strong and is the main reason why you can see full AD team comps do fine but full AP team comps autolose.

MR items have much higher damage reduction than armor items due to lack of scaling of base MR and AD champions doing overinflated damage due to scaling armor.

Full ad comps work because the AD they buy is also used for auto-attack, why do you think champs like Cassio, (heimer thanks Centaur) or teemo Ap-on-hit can shred Mr stackers so easily. Also thats why item 3151 exists, it does max hp damage and works great with DoT/spammable slow champs.

Also some of those great magic defense items have terrible build paths :

Spirit Visage (55mr) is 104.88% gold efficient item, components only give 25 mr until complete.
Mercurial (35mr) Scimitar is 81.03% gold efficient, well its meant to be a situational hybrid and mainly for QSS so meh.
Maw of Malmortius is 89.74% gold efficient without its passive effects and 122.82% gold efficient while LIFEGRIP is active.
Locket of the Iron Solari is 76.36% gold efficient without the active effect.
Gargoyle Stoneplate item Gargoyle Stoneplate is 60.8% gold efficient without its passive and active. 121.6% gold efficient with its passive STONE SKIN: Weak in non-teamfights
Adaptive Helm is 88.93% gold efficient without its passive: one of the most situational mr items, only worth against cassio, Asol, teemo and full ap team.
Abyssal Mask is 87% gold efficient, helps ally ap damage.
Zz'Rot Portal is 91.3% to 120.56% efficient.

Then we have Ap items:

Luden's Echo is 104.09% gold efficient exluding echo passive.
Rod of Ages is 93.52% gold efficient without its passive and 150.68% gold efficient at max stacks: well this actually has trade-offs due to scale time.
Morellonomicon is 92.97% gold efficient without its passive: Core item and direct counters
Hextech Gunblade is 121.03% gold efficient, without its active, and the rest of its passive.
Rabadon's Deathcap is 101.5% gold efficient by itself.
Void Staff is 57.45% gold efficient without its passive and becoms efficient at enemy 91 mr, as well as reducing the value of all enemy mr bought.

HP CrookshanksFeb 4, 20192 votes

Full AD comps work because of insane amount of armor pen and true damage while APs have only item 3135 . Also Cassiopeia Teemo and item 3151 are countered by item 3194 .

wolviusFeb 4, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cqy9oMNA,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-04T18:08:17.952+0000)

Full AD comps work because of insane amount of armor pen and true damage while APs have only . Also and are countered by .

%Armor pen items/reduction: item 3035 upgrades, item 3071 : Typically for different classes. You dont normally see non-adc/assassins take last whisper Lethality: item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 cant remember if item 3134 lethality gets cancelled when have all three because unique passive

%Magic pen: item 3135 Flat pen (this really needs a name like lethality) : item 3020 item 3165

Once teemo and cassio have void staff or both your still going to melt super fast.

Edit: item 3124 Not even sure what to classify this as,

Z3SleeperFeb 5, 20192 votes

Nah you can get another Dirk and it stacks the lethality. The Unique Passive is unique from each item.

That said, it's kinda silly to do that cuz you already have 4 item slots filled by the other 3 lethality + boots and you aren't assassinating anyone if you die in 0.2 seconds or they have actual armor items now (which is why they go BC at some point).

IllabetheFeb 5, 20191 votes

Sorry but I build Last Whisper on Illaoi. It's only way to win vs lane countering tanks with CC. You have to get as much out of that initial smash before they have a chance to kill you, and LW does the job better than Black cleaver does.

wolviusFeb 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but I build Last Whisper on Illaoi. It's only way to win vs lane countering tanks with CC. You have to get as much out of that initial smash before they have a chance to kill you, and LW does the job better than Black cleaver does.

There are some exceptions to everything thats why we have assassin supports that have better CC than some tanks.

IllabetheFeb 5, 20191 votes

You do realize your entire argument is exactly why item 3165 was reworked into a bastard Luden's and a CDR-less Morellonomicon?

Morello offered:

20% CDR Grievous wounds under 40% HP 100 AP Restore mana on Champion takedowns.

But now you're whining about Luden's for the same reason.

Also, Magic resistance is awesome, and if you build it before actually deviating to items like item 3748 item 3071 , it actually carries lanes. Hard. It only lacks when you build it as a third or 4th item and the other team has already compensated for that.

boricCentaur1Feb 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You do realize your entire argument is exactly why was reworked into a bastard Luden's and a CDR-less Morellonomicon?

Morello offered:

20% CDR Grievous wounds under 40% HP 100 AP Restore mana on Champion takedowns.

But now you're whining about Luden's for the same reason.

Also, Magic resistance is awesome, and if you build it before actually deviating to items like , it actually carries lanes. Hard. It only lacks when you build it as a third or 4th item and the other team has already compensated for that.

Riot did not solve the problem they made two items that did too much still do too much so yes, if the problem is not solved it should be complained about. Also no mr items are not good especially early since they give very little useful stats the ad is low the mr is low you will just end up will no damage and become you have no health the mr will not help you a lot.

Moody PFeb 4, 201910 votes

This isn't unique to mages though, most champions have a very cut and paste build

ThemMushroomsFeb 4, 20194 votes

AD champs have a widely larger selection of playstyles to choose from compared to AP due to their itemization.

If you pick an AP champ you're almost guaranteed to build these 4 items every single time because there are no other alternatives to pick from. You are forced into being nothing but a nuke-bot because that's the only playstyle that's supported at this point.

Moody PFeb 4, 20197 votes

If that were true burst mages would be meta but they're the weakest of the AP group outside of dead champs like Taliyah. DPS and control mages are the dominant choices.

It's more of a kit problem than anything. AP kits are always casters for instance. There's simply not a lot of room to work with because the rare exceptions like AP auto attackers are too rare to justify making new items for.

ThemMushroomsFeb 4, 20193 votes

If that was the case then why are all of these "DPS" mages building the exact same items as the burst mages?

HateDaddyFeb 5, 20196 votes

So there’s a lot wrong with this but I want to state that while I disagree with your analysis, I agree with your conclusion. AP itemization absolutely lacks variety. It’s all about stat efficiency and barring Zhonyas, Rabadons and Void, passives/actives don’t matter. That is the epitome of stale and uninteresting itemization and as a result, these items and a few other are grossly overtuned compared to other AP items, which furthers this divide.

Let’s talk about why I think you’re wrong:

For starters, ignoring innate resist boosters in champion kits, most champions will barely go over 100 MR with two MR items. Even at 150 MR, a champion will still take a nice chunk of damage from a champion without void at 500+ AP. Surely, you likely won’t kill them but if I’ve invested into 2-3 MR items, you shouldn’t be able to burst me in one combo without void. And when you get void, you’ll find that even the tankiest tanks die very quickly to AP champions, especially Riots beloved “machine gun mages” featuring Azir (he is similar in that he DPSs) and Vlad (vlad is vlad).

Now the important question: Do I think mages are overpowered? Yes. I think they always have been. They get the best of both worlds. They get to have insane damage and insane utility. Sure, they do not scale like ADCs in terms of damage but they offer more to a team. When mages have been weak, it’s been because riot has over-nerfed them or their items. When in equal playing-fields, assassins and any competing mid laner may as well not exist. Are we currently in such a cycle? I don’t think so. But I do think that fundamentally, mages violate so many basic game design concepts on a broad level that they are absurdly versatile in exchange for weaknesses such as “low mobility” and extreme squishiness. This is offset however by long range and items that beef them up very quickly, many of them actually become ranged AP bruisers with burst potential.

This opinion won’t be popular but it is what it is. Mages actually need an update where they aren’t so good at everything, and as such, they’ve been left in a state where many of them are weak because when they’re even modestly decent, they take over. Mages should be either damage oriented (thus lose power in crowd control/other utility), utility oriented (loss damage in favor of crowd control/utility) or DPS oriented (no utility, no burst, straight and raw DPS). The reality is, these lines are extremely blended and you have many weak mages while only a few thrive. And the reject mages then go to bot lane as “supports” and end up blowing up entire teams while still having the same utility that most supports have minus healing/shielding.

Serika ZeroFeb 5, 20191 votes

As someone that played a lot of aram. full ap team comps are easier to tank though than full ad teams.

Usually because the combination of Visage and adaptive mask negates a lot of ap damage. And unlike ads, ap rely on cool downs. if you survived the initial burst, in most cases you are then safe for the next 3-10 seconds.

Ofc cassio, azir and a few others are exceptions, which makes them quite difficult to balance. Which is why ap items generally give more ap than ad items give ad. And also the reason while ap items have to be stronger usually than ad items, because we got less ways to use them. because let's be fair, rabadons is better than ie for example. or void staff is better than last whisper.

But that's also a necessity

HateDaddyFeb 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cqy9oMNA,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-02-05T15:08:35.679+0000)

As someone that played a lot of aram. full ap team comps are easier to tank though than full ad teams.

Usually because the combination of Visage and adaptive mask negates a lot of ap damage. And unlike ads, ap rely on cool downs. if you survived the initial burst, in most cases you are then safe for the next 3-10 seconds.

Ofc cassio, azir and a few others are exceptions, which makes them quite difficult to balance. Which is why ap items generally give more ap than ad items give ad. And also the reason while ap items have to be stronger usually than ad items, because we got less ways to use them. because let's be fair, rabadons is better than ie for example. or void staff is better than last whisper.

But that's also a necessity

The biggest problem with this post is you’re comparing what happens in ARAM ato what happens in SR. ARAM has different balancing mechanics for starters, and the name of the game in ARAM is often poke. Summoners rift obviously has a lane phase, objectives, wave management and team comps to consider. So, in this way, you really can’t compare what happens in ARAM to what happens in SR and use that as justification for your point.

That said, AP in general does not DPS, which is why APs overall have a hard time killing tanks. So if we isolate this conversation to what is good for killing tanks, then yes AD overall has an advantage. That said, full tank teams vs full AD teams will still likely see the full tank team win if we are just talking about running it down mid and face rolling. As I’ve already said though, that is not a valid indication of item power.

Lastly, I want to point out the biggest, most glaring thing mage/AP players always ignore: your role does more than just damage. AD very rarely offers any consistent, high quality utility. AP always offers utility in the form of ranged crowd control, shields, heals and even spell shields. In addition, AP is far superior to AD in ranged, safe, AOE waveclear. You cannot simply look at AP and compare to AD on damage and killing capacity alone, because then of course AD wins. But if you consider AP and all it’s capacities, you soon begin to realize that AP is the most valuable type, where as AD is likely the most necessary. Philosophically, one is not better than the other because they’re both two equal sides of competing forces that balance this game. However, gameplay wise they will always go back and forth. It’s why I think comparing the two is dumb because they simply do different things.

Serika ZeroFeb 7, 20191 votes

Aram is basically team fights over team fights. and items, the items are the same as normal summoner rift. With the exception of GA, which is going to only hurt ad assassins and adcs. and aram is a place where mages and the likes of sona or soraka are very very strong.

And yet, in a game mode highly dominated by ap champions, ap teams lose more. and with the same items, hmmm,there's nooooo way its easier to tank aps than ads noooo.

It's the opposite I'm comparing the two simply because full ads have an easier time when they shouldn't.

In normal sr you can play full ad or ap and snowball out of control. But if you don't ap teams have a way bigger weaknesses than full ad ones. full ad ones can still win while full ap ones are more easily tanked

heroikcFeb 4, 20194 votes

Yeah, as I recall, itemization has always been some problem for mages since...forever.

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20193 votes

Yeah it's a problem because mage itemization it's broken, I agree.

heroikcFeb 4, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cqy9oMNA,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-02-04T18:11:54.511+0000)

Yeah it's a problem because mage itemization it's broken, I agree.

Broken how? OP, UP, expensive, lacking, what? I know mana is one issue, and most first and second tier AP items are lacking in comparison to AD equivalents.

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20194 votes

Broken in the sense that it's too strong.

heroikcFeb 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cqy9oMNA,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-04T21:22:20.186+0000)

Broken in the sense that it's too strong.

Too strong in effects, synergy or stats? Just want to get this straight, if you do not mind.

HopeStartsWithUFeb 5, 20191 votes

Everyone builds the same because the same works out for everyone. It is too effective that Riot "nerfed" AP by taking out AP several times and mages STILL dealing more than enough damage to not be relevant. Remember when it was easy to reach 1k AP? Now that this is gone people expected mages to do way less with a few rotations. But that's not the case tho, they still do the same thing without drawbacks.

Still it's pretty boring to have to build the same thing every game. AP Assassins and Mages literally share their builds

IllabetheFeb 5, 20191 votes

Mage individual skill damage is usually actually smaller, or on par with AD equivalents.

Don't look at end game stat totals and say that 50k Zyra damage did more than a 30k Damage Irelia, and try to argue that Zyra somehow was "Broken."

In reality, most cases of "high damage" mages waste about 40% of their damage poking in a manner to either proc a spellthief, or to try to clear a wave. Most of this damage is easily mitigated by the sustain kits nearly ALL the meta AD champions have been given, or Second wind. In many cases, it's not even "Deterrent" damage, because the damage either gets healed right back up, or because the champions can work through mid - low HP situations.

I want you to compare Khazix actual damage per game stats to that of a champion like Zyra . You'll notice that while Zyra's is higher, the Kha will secure far more kills, waste far less damage, and have a greater impact on who can push/jungle. Kha can get 25 kills in 21k damage over the course of a 35 minute game. Zyra might be 8/4//10 or worse, but have about 45k damage in the same game.

HopeStartsWithUFeb 5, 20191 votes

You compare the wrong champs tho. You would have to compare to an ADC because she is kind of a hybrid of DPS and burst (her all in can deal a lot of damage). Syndra or Viktor would be a better example since they truly burst. And a Syndra really bursts harder than some AD assassins but she is also more vulnerable as a trade off.

Also poking isn't wasting damage, it can decide if the tank can initiate a fight or not. It's important for a mages identity.

I am not saying their damage is too high, just that some AP items had "too" much AP which wasn't needed and made AP assassins kinda annoying. Mages didn't really get hurt by these changes. Old zhonyas gave, idk 120? AP or something, even if you didn't want the effect you could just buy it simply becaues it gave insane amount of AP and ofc vice versa. The extra AP were just nice to have to hit the 1k mark.

Matter of fact, damage for mages didn't change much while itemization is still shitty.

IllabetheFeb 5, 20191 votes

The only point in the entire game where an adc potentially wastes damage is in lane phase due to Relic shield, Fleet footwork, etc. Post lane, the same logic applies: If an adc attacks someone, it is to kill them. Otherwise, they are farming minions.

You ignored the fact that the reason I'm arguing it's "wasted" is because those tanks have sustain, heal right out of it, and in many cases it DOESN'T affect who wins/loses/has to recall/can't engage.

The only reason mages (as a group) haven't fallen out of the game completely is because 1) Transcendence/Gathering storm benefits them more and 2) Riot rebuffed many items after those initial nerfs ( item 3135 item 3157 item 3907 item 3027 item 3116 have all been buffed in AP values over the last round of stat adjustments)

HopeStartsWithUFeb 6, 20191 votes

I am gonna go out on a limb and assume that you don't understand the roles in this game. ADCs aren't picked because they deal consistent damage to random stuff. They are picked because 1) they counter tanks 2) are fast at doing objectives.

Mages are picked for 1) wave management (stalling and clearing) 2) zoning (anivia wall and ult as an example or orianna ball or zyra plants) 3) long range CC 4) different type of damage to go effectively against tanks. Mages are picked in the pro scene because of these reasons not because of gathering storm and transcendence. They could remove those runes and mages would be still around.

The game is about objectives, not about killing someone fast.

And I am probably repeating myself but here we go: AP was cut because it wasn't justified. There is no point in giving 1k AP for everyone simply because there are different kind of AP champs. You have assassins, dps, burst mages.

LB with 1k AP is literally just pressing Q+Ult on an ADC to kill them.

Syndra with 1k AP would prep some balls and press R to kill a priority target.

Nobody wants to melt in Anivias ult simply because it's taking so much room in a teamfight.

The damage in a rotation has fallen off, as it should be. Because mages SHOULD need more than 1 rotation or just one rotation to kill someone, not just one ability. But the overall damage dealt in a game hasn't changed much.

On top of it, some items with their effects SHOULDN'T have so much AP. Zhonyas being one of those, you build zhonyas for the stasis and the armor not for the raw ap, in other words you build zhonyas for utility. Same for the hextech items: Protobelt gives you a dash for a bit of HP and AP. Hextech gunblade gives sustain and a nice active/slow for low stats (and AD which almost no mage uses other than some assassins like kata and akali).

Riot tries to give mages more utility with item changes. Which is the right way, but they always fck up and make some items just completely useless while others (ludens and morello) just do too well.

IllabetheFeb 6, 20191 votes

Adcs are the most prone to tank champions in the game. Don't know where you're getting that idea (you're going to be in for a rude awakening when adcs are back to Crit multiplier IE, because tanks used to build vs that, and dominate adcs. Some still do)
Adcs are fast at doing what objectives? I'm sorry, but junglers are faster, tops are faster, and an adc needs to be really fed to do objectives. There is only two adcs who are arguably objective adcs, and both are under 50% right now:
Again: Some AP items were buffed right after they were nerfed. Rylai's for example went 1 season as 70 AP. Now it's 90 AP.
1000 AP is still extremely possible. I often get 1192 AP when I play
You lost track of your argument. It's off the tracks an in like 4 different tangents.

HopeStartsWithUFeb 6, 20191 votes

"Are you trying to ignore my arguments for the jokes of it or what?? ADCs take turrets down faster, ADCs ARE NEEDED to do a fast baron/elder. Those are objectives, THOSE ARE GAME CHANGING OBJECTIVES. Every ADC is good at taking down objectives simply because they do fast auto attacks.

The ENTIRE LANE SWAP TACTIC IS SO THAT THE ADC WITH HIS SUPPORT CAN TAKE BOT TURRET FIRST AND THEN TOP TURRET. ADCs are bot because DRAKE is at botside.

And for your info: Lucian, Cait, Vayne, Draven, Corki, Jinx are all champions that deal the most damage to monsters/turrets/inhibs simply because they aren't gated by CD (surprise surprise)

Some AP items were buffed, but not to their original stats. Stop ignoring facts ffs. There is a huge fucking difference between 120 AP and 80 AP, Rylais still lost HP and a strong ass slow, but I doubt you remember this shit after all you started in S8. Rylais was beyond broken until they nerfed the health and the slow

You often get jack shit if you play eve because you cant get 1k ap without a few fire drakes and baron.

My "argument" isn't just one argument its many. You clearly don't know what you are talking about are you? "

This was my answer for your post. But just ignore it. I really didn't wanna bring rank into this but that is the only reason you would think the way you do. You are too delusional and I won't answer to your posts anymore. You ignore numbers and facts (junglers being faster at taking objectives??? lmao what?). Sad, tried to be civil with you and actually give you some insight on the games core functions, instead you make up random shit like "1k ap with eve"

IllabetheFeb 6, 20191 votes

Nasus and Diana are the fastest turret Sieges, followed by Jax. Then Neeko.

AirKingNeoFeb 4, 20192 votes

AD champs have a widely larger selection of playstyles to choose from compared to AP due to their itemization.

most first and second tier AP items are lacking in comparison to AD equivalents.

and AD items don't have any equivlents in AP either. Your point? GA doesn't have 10% CDR and Maw is more expensive than Hourglass. Void Staff is way better than LDR in every aspect.

AP champions are taking over every role in the game.

https://twitter.com/Hashinshin/status/1091806536484225026

heroikcFeb 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

AD champs have a widely larger selection of playstyles to choose from compared to AP due to their itemization.

and AD items don't have any equivlents in AP either. Your point? GA doesn't have 10% CDR and Maw is more expensive than Hourglass. Void Staff is way better than LDR in every aspect.

AP champions are taking over every role in the game.

https://twitter.com/Hashinshin/status/1091806536484225026

Part of the problem, really.

GA is considered the AD equivalent to Zhonya's, and Maw to BV. And isn't Voidstaff more expensive/harder to get than other other Last whisper items.

Doesn't mean the item builds aren't mildly monotonous.

IllabetheFeb 5, 20193 votes

GA and Zhonya's serve entirely different purposes. Stop attempting to make the comparison. One is an early game item; the other is late. One is an in combat save. The other is a Post combat save. One activates automatically. The other activates only when you remember you have it.

Furthermore, GA's component parts are far more advantageous on build up in both cost and utility than a Zhonyas. I don't know if you are aware, but item 3108 has been price bumped over time, and in comparison to scaling skills, is inferior to BF Sword.

Maw is FAR more purchase friendly than an Hourglass.
Explain how. In terms of the fact AD scaling champs have 80-120% Bonus AD ratios and AP champions have 40-80% Scaling in most cases, and do not have a base AP to work off of, whereas AD champs do? Or maybe the fact AD has at least 5 different ways to permeate defenses, and the add ons to them are FAR stronger than any add-ons to any magic penetration items?

I want to look at the last thing I said:

Utility on item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 vs Utility on item 3916 item 3165 item 3020

O Right.... two of those mage items are actually the same item, and the Penetration on them is accompanied by almost NO UTILITY AT ALL (with the exception of a 3000g Grievous wounds, vs an 800/900 for AD/tanks)

The Lethality items: Eliminate wards, added on hit damage, out of combat move speed, active move speed % bonus boost, and a potential nulling shield.

Win: I'd have to give this to the AD items in a landslide.

item 3071 item 3124 vs item 3091 Oh right...... this is a 1 sided field of penetration that only one champ class actually gets, other than about 2 AP champions ( Kayle Teemo ) And mages don't even get to USE Wit's End, or Guinsoo's, so in reality this is a group of 3 on hit items for ADs for the most part.

Win: I'd give it to AD's in a landslide.

item 3036 item 3033 vs item 3135

Pretty flat items with no utility, other than THE AD ITEM HAS A 800G GRIEVOUS WOUNDS COMPONENT. Oh..... and the fact that AD components actually give Penetration BEFORE they are fully built, where AP doesn't until it's complete.

Oh wait there's more:

Conqueror (Sucks to lose out mages) Infinity Edge (Going to be reverted but still offered a fifth way to bypass defense)

We can even get into a list of what champs actually have a form of penetration:

AD Camille Darius JarvanIV MasterYi Nasus Renekton Rengar Twitch MonkeyKing Yasuo Fiora

ALL have on board Penetration or some form of very strong true damage in a single chunk which mitigates defenses.

AP Evelynn Ahri

Oh Wait....... that's about IT.

P.S. Pantheon has 360% Bonus AD scaling on his E, so you're really climbing and reaching if you want to counter with "AP get more raw AP points" None of them have scaling like THAT.

AirKingNeoFeb 6, 20192 votes

Both are defensive items and put you out of the game. The comparison is fair.

Codex's price has been 900 gold for the past 5 seasons.

Comparing assassin only items to general mage items is disinformation. An ADC can't build those items. A bruiser can't build those items.

There aren't maybe AP onhit champions. The comparion of Wit's End to Black Cleaver, TWO EXTREMELY DIFFERENT ITEMS is wrongful.

Void Staff beats out LDR/Mortal in every way. Better stats, lower cost.

Conqueror doesn't really effect mages. Meanwhile, MAGES ARE ABUSING AFTERSHOCKING IN THE MID LANE AS WE SPEAK to ignore their opponents.

Listing champions with penetration effects (Twitch doesn't have one btw) is an abuse of statistics. Defense against physical damage being greater, being someone who needs to be able to duel people, dealing DPS and thus needing to deal with tanks are just MANY OF FACTORS as to why a champion would have pen, which are all conditions mages, who have superior lane priority, poke, burst damage, and crowd control, DO NOT MEET.

The fact the argument is, you are blatantly misusing statistics to support an argument that doesn't stand in reality. My example to prove the truth I speak is in fact the truth? The current meta. Mages are the strongest in every role. Vlad is LITERALLY the best top laner right now; Assassins are irrelevant because mages have Aftershock to ignore them and outscale them; ADCs suck because they have poor defensive options.

Please, look at actual game data instead of what a champion or item does without understanding why they do that.

IllabetheFeb 6, 20193 votes

Adcs can and do build . Not all of them, but some absolutely do: definitely build them and We're not talking about just adcs; we're talking about AD vs AP.
You're basically admitting that one damage type has all the items, while trying to say the OTHER group has nothing...... because the only comparisons were NOT MEANT FOR THEM. There's no "Disinformation" there. AP does not have equivalent items to Black Cleaver or Guinsoo's. At all. I'm glad we're on the same page that mages are in fact weaker.
No. It doesn't. 70 AP is about on parity with 40 AD. ADC is constantly hitting 350-400 AD now, while mages other than Veigar struggle to even get 700-800 AP. That's the parity, and AD scaling is ALWAYS higher.

Furthermore, once again..... LDR is useful BEFORE It's BUILT. Void Staff is not. It's just AP stats. LDR is 20% Armor penetration at 1300G. What matters isn't just the end stats, but how you get there, and all champions have 90-143 Base AD as well, of which Mages have 0 AP.

Conquerer doesn't affect mages? What? lmfao? It absolutely destroys Zhonya's Armor, gives the user a free 35 AD. Doesn't affect them? WHAT?
The listing was significant Defense Bypassing Champions, and Twitch DOES have one in his passive. Stacked it is one of the most free sources of True damage in the game!
The fact of my post is I'm using statistics accurately, and you're not, and when called out, you attempt to dismiss these very legitimate arguments by even voiding your own. You literally just made excuses as to why AD should have more penetration, more items, and admitted AP has less.

My goal of responding to you was not to argue and try to say mages are weak or don't have their places. My goal was to point out that your assumption that somehow mages have superior itemization was horribly wrong. _**The truth is, Mages DO have strength in harass/poke, and they have much better on board long range CC. **_But there are some AP champions who are literally negligible under their current kits because Mages (almost exclusively) are the ones who have multi hit abilities and DoTs. Second Wind Disproportionately favors AD champions over AP champions, because a 6000 HP Sion can actually heal faster than a mage can damage him. Same thing with Garen, Voli, etc. Morgana play fell off a cliff as anything but a Q spammer for exactly this reason. The only reason Zyra is still in the meta is because she is far less build restricted, and because the bulk of her damage is not in her DoT, but rather the initial hits, and most importantly: Zyra's Q is not a projectile (Yasuo can't win wall it)

AirKingNeoFeb 6, 20191 votes

Bringing up small exceptions does not break the rule that applies to the rest of the class. An argument built on exceptions does not apply.
There are more classes that use AD items than AP. You are providing disinformation by trying to compare all of AD itemization as a whole, which is used by 3 classes, to AP itemization, which is used by 1. If you wanted to make a fair comparison, compare a single class' itemization against AP itemization (mages).
Void Staff is still more gold efficient and still has a lower cost.
How does Conqueror give a free 35 AD? You, as a mage, also have a keystone, so it is completely dishonest to pretend they have "free stats" when your keystone also gives you things, like burst damage or poke, that Conqueror users do not have. Also, Conqueror takes 4 seconds to activate.
Listing defense bypass champions and trying to compare them without any context is disinformation. You can't say "well AD champions have more people who have anti-tank effects, so AP champions must suck" when AP champions aren't dealing DPS, don't need to duel, and aren't made to hurt tanks.
You aren't using statistics accurately. Not once have you cited actual statistics. If we look at actual stats, we see mages dominating in Top, Mid, and Bot.

I didn't make excuses why AD champions should have more penetration. I explained why they have it. AP has less and should have less because they are a burst damage class, not a DPS one.

Mages do have superior itemization.

They have the best starter item and the best component for that starter item. It gives AP, massive mana, 20% CDR, and either poke OR a shield. The next best thing to that is Trinity and Black Cleaver. Trinity has a much higher cost. Cleaver has shitty components.
Mages have better pen items. Void Staff completely outclasses LDR/Mortal. Magic pen is more effective than Lethality since it isn't level based and mages don't have to get into melee range.
Tons of mage items give extra defenses, which none of the AD classes get.
They literally get access to the best item in the game, Zhonyas Hourglass. GA doesn't have 10% CDR on it. Maw costs more gold.