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CINDERHULK OVERPOWERED?

WeWereGentlemen··8 votes·2,860 views

So everybody raving about how OP cinderhulk is. Everybody taking TP + Smite in toplane, and even supports are now considering this jungle enchantment as their item choice..

I think it would be good if we could just calm down a bit and look at the facts instead of the hype.

Cinderhulk gives 300 Health (ok, 375 with passive) for 2200 gold when the same money would give you 835 health if you bought only health.

That said, if you wanted Cinderhulk to be gold-efficient you'd have to buy ~3 Warmogs.

Again, for Cinderhulk to be better than just buying normal health you would have to buy 3 Warmogs!

Still don't get it? Only if you buy 3 Warmogs, then Cinderhulk is better than simply buying normal health!!

And with that, I present to you the ultimate conclusion:

Cinderhulk is overhyped garbage (and we need to get off the hype train).

About the burn -passive.. [ERMAHGERD 20 DMG PER SEC] (but only if you are literally stepping on enemy toes)

That is another April Fools joke from Riot, yes?

Cinderhulk is just another FOTM for brainless retards who can't think for themselves and just follow the pros who just mindlessly spam game after game to improve their already military pilot -reflexes to Luke Skywalker -level, when their analytical thinking is what is holding them back. This is also what makes the esports so darn boring.

Why are we led by the misled?

Upvote if u agree please

Have a good day, We Were Gentlemen

30 Comments

KMannnnn14 votes

See, I would say cinderhulk is probably a bit overtuned right now, but not necessarily OP.

To your arguments, however, the efficiency of cinderhulk isn't solely determined by how much HP it gives you, but rather the HP in addition to the burning passive (a lot more damage than it seems, believe me), and the power of the PvP smite (usually item 3715 in top lane). The reason the strategy is so popular is that it's more powerful in scenarios where you can afford to give up flash for an increased mid-late game powerspike, which is something only a handful of champions can do.

Do I think taking smite toplane is smart? Not really, I'd say you're better served having flash in 99/100 matchups, but the fact of the matter is that if you can make it past lane phase, you become an absurdly tanky champion who can dive the enemy carries easily with red smite.

WeWereGentlemen2 votes

{quoted}

See, I would say cinderhulk is probably a bit overtuned right now, but not necessarily OP.

To your arguments, however, the efficiency of cinderhulk isn't solely determined by how much HP it gives you, but rather the HP in addition to the burning passive (a lot more damage than it seems, believe me), and the power of the PvP smite (usually item 3715 in top lane). The reason the strategy is so popular is that it's more powerful in scenarios where you can afford to give up flash for an increased mid-late game powerspike, which is something only a handful of champions can do.

Do I think taking smite toplane is smart? Not really, I'd say you're better served having flash in 99/100 matchups, but the fact of the matter is that if you can make it past lane phase, you become an absurdly tanky champion who can dive the enemy carries easily with red smite.

Thanks for the extensive answer

I see what you're saying but I really want to further emphasize my point. It is cold hard fact that Cinderhulk isn't what everybody thinks it is. My point is that the "absurd tank" with Cinderhulk would actually be even tankier if he had just bought raw health. Cinderhulk only becomes better than raw HP stacking if you've got the equivalent of 3 Warmogs of health. This scenario, if it will ever happen, it will happen after 45 minutes into the game with tanks having full builds. So why don't you skip that weak early and just start stacking Giant's belts from the get-go and be strong all game long. (except late-late game - where 95% of games do not go)

KMannnnn11 votes

I guess it depends on where Cinderhulk fits into the build. If it becomes a replacement for a damage item on someone like shyvanna, the two builds end up looking something like this:

item 3717 item 3143 item 3102 item 3083 item 3075 (~2575 bonus HP) and

item 3153 item 3143 item 3102 item 3083 item 3075 (1750 bonus HP).

If you were going to be building another tank item instead of BotRK anyways, you're better off just skipping the Cinderhulk, because even if Cinderhulk will give more HP than a spirit visage or sunfire cape, it won't give the armor/MR that you're wanting from the items.

All that to say, I absolutely agree that just having a normal FULL tank build is more efficient than cinderhulk, but if you see Cinderhulk as a substitute damage item for something like BotRK or Hydra, it becomes a lot more powerful if you get past early phases.

Again, I'm not a fan of the build, but that's the basic logic behind it, as far as I can tell.

shalec2 votes

The jungle item is a vital part of the item as a whole, and the power of Skirmisher's Sabre makes this strategy actually good in top lane. The enchantment itself only costs 1400 gold, plus the 850 for the item. The item is extremely efficient since the magic damage per second plus the percent bonus health are good early game and scale well into late game.

Stacking raw health is usually a bad idea anyway. With Cinderhulk, you can get both resistances and health and have a significant health pool plus good resistances, instead of just having a large health total.

RazorTS1 votes

{quoted}

.....

Do I think taking smite toplane is smart? Not really, I'd say you're better served having flash in 99/100 matchups, but the fact of the matter is that if you can make it past lane phase, you become an absurdly tanky champion who can dive the enemy carries easily with red smite.

demage reduction works against one dude by no means you can dive in past whole team to that carry with it also champ who dives on that adc can do that even without red smite and that cinder has nothing to do with it at all

Extreme Troller1 votes

{quoted}

.....

demage reduction works against one dude by no means you can dive in past whole team to that carry with it also champ who dives on that adc can do that even without red smite and that cinder has nothing to do with it at all

that damage reduction is like a free exhaust in the ignite spell, it's not moronic, it's worse than that. even my mom would find obvious its broken

RazorTS1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Extreme Troller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cor6Gwqj,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2015-04-24T17:22:03.181+0000)

that damage reduction is like a free exhaust in the ignite spell, it's not moronic, it's worse than that. even my mom would find obvious its broken

yeah more like half strength exhaust and half ignite, just that exhaust part works only when target is attacking YOU, and ignite works when You are attacking him, great on pure cc tank junglers, building it on bruisers is kinda meh, people should watch streams and be copycat less than building odd items that doesnt suit champ or their playstyle. Kinda feel same with item 3800 why buy it if you never use it just get that item 3027 instead

KMannnnn11 votes

Well, I was thinking in terms of Shyvanna, who can dive the backline really effectively anyways, and red smite just makes her better at it.

RazorTS1 votes

{quoted}

Well, I was thinking in terms of Shyvanna, who can dive the backline really effectively anyways, and red smite just makes her better at it.

kindoff, it is replacement for sunfire on her, cinder is only source of damage on her, she doesnt bring anything to team besides her ulti tho, pick Sejuani top you wont screw yourself for not having flash and lot more useful for your team or anyone else really.

Shyvana is more or less stream inspired fotm, and i didnt see a game where she did anything to useful lol, resourceless champs easy to play i guess

KMannnnn11 votes

I've seen smite top Shyvanna do really well in a lot of games, but I absolutely agree that she's far from the best top laner at the moment. Almost no CC on a tank is never a good thing.

Drunk Rummate4 votes

What's really hilarious is that there are people going smite top and buying Cinderhulk, and then immediately itemizing damage items afterwards

Seriously. Not joking. People are actually stupid enough to go Cinderhulk into Hydra, Botrk, and/or Last Whisper.

I played with a Darius who went Cinderhulk -> Hydra -> LW a couple days ago. He stomped lane (because he's a Darius with gromp buff) and then proceeded to feed horribly in the midgame. It was hilarious. Mostly because he was on the other team. Probably not funny if he was on mine.

Saianna4 votes

It isn't OP one bit. We just need basic item increasing HP by some %. When that happens you won't see smite top anymore.

Zmuecat2 votes

I agree with this, if the % bonus HP modifier were on another item not linked to a jungle enchantment, we most likely wouldn't see this problem.

Cinder hulk is great, but I think I'm more concerned with the jungle items being used in lane, not Cinder hulk itself.

Romans VI XXIII3 votes

You are comparing Apples and Oranges, with the only similarity being they are both Fruit.

You cant say one item is less gold efficient than another by just comparing 1 of their stats. +25% Bonus HP is MASSIVE +Damage/Sec is MASSIVE

and should be incorporated into your calculations.

So by your logic we can compare Any HP Item to Warmogs, and conclude that no one should ever buy any HP item EXCEPT Warmogs, because it has the most HP/Gold.

Your Logic is OP.

HOE Bloo1 votes

came for this. not disappointed.

Sire Hippington3 votes

seeing that cinderhulk doesn'toffer any other stats tha health, compareing the health it grants with the goldcosts isn't a bad approach. he also at no point compared warmongs and cinderhulk directly, he just said you need ~3 warmongs(2400bonus health) till the 25% bonus health actually makes it gold-efficient statwise.

Cinderhulk actually is a bit overated for toplaners, not a bad item, but definitly not as op as many think it is. Haveing smite rather than tp or flash can put you in a bad spot early on, cinderhulk is pretty weak as a rushed item, so if you can't make good use of the red-smite, you will have a really though lane, and it's not really more gold efficient that a warmongs. It grants a great mid-late powerspike, but thats about it.

shalec4 votes

It's actually an absolutely terrible approach since Cinderhulk gives way more than just health. Warmog's gives out of combat regen and health, but mostly health, and that's it. Cinderhulk gives a better Sunfire passive, the effects of the chosen jungle item and both percent bonus health along with 300 flat health.

Sire Hippington2 votes

warmongs healthregen is the major reason to get it and comparable to the dps aura+junglepassive. And again, no one ever compared them directly!

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

Again all you are doing is comparing HP in your calcs. you are completely forgetting that Cinder-hulk deals damage + Smite of your choosing, and that Warmogs gives you HP regen.

You cant create an equation unless you involve ALL of the variables. Leaving out variables makes your equation pointless and completely wrong.

Puri Puri Taric2 votes

got nerfed complain and it gets overnerfed and poof its trash again.

CubedJustice2 votes

Your math is correct, but logic flawed. Cinderhulk is the enchantment of Skirmishers, which is 850 by itself, making the cost of the enchantment 1400. Paired with the damage aura, and the bonus health, cinderhulk is an extremely efficient item for 1400.

Elisai1 votes

Cinderhulk is expected to get a nerf. Specifically because even the pro player C9 Balls even said so himself ((((To Balls, this is worrisome for the health of solo queue play. "I think Smite should just stay in the jungle, because they can't punish you in solo queue, and two Smites is better than one for objectives," he said. "People can abuse this strat to always stay even or ahead in lane experience." He calls for Cinderhulk to be directly nerfed in whatever way appropriate to stave off its influence in his role.)))) ~ From here -> http://na.lolesports.com/articles/top-lane-terror-smitetp-strategy-balls-and-jack <- Honestly I'd rather have it nerfed too. I'd like a volibear that doesn't tank my damage, then with op cinder he only gets to half health now. Not even close to the fact he has a double execute now. Smite + Bite = Raped.

TheRakkun1 votes

I don't think cinder-hulk is bad, but I really honest to god HATE THORNMAIL.

Also tanks who do lots of damage, yeah looking at you Chogath

Linna Excel1 votes

I would say it is OP because top laners are dropping flash for smite so they can get a cinderhulk.

Extreme Troller1 votes

riot will nerf it. But they take time it's weird, because they are 3 cinderhulk for each team everygame.

in average there are 5smite/each game LOL !

Shadow Gilgamesh1 votes

I just think it's funny that people think a summoner spell being worth taking on more than one character is a sign of it being unbalanced when summoner 4 exists.

Hell if they're taking it for the item they now have 2 item slots tied up in boots and machete (which is less useful as a core item for laners by a lot). Everyone bitches about no variety until something new shows up, then everyone is mad that things aren't boring like they used to be.

Meep Man1 votes

Something tells me they will nerf the Immolation aspect of it since the health it gives isn't what is an uber problem, its the fact that it gives health and essentially a better Sunfire Camp.

Drakylon1 votes

The power of Cinderhulk isn't just limited to the item. It's the fact that Challenging Smite is ridiculously powerful (basically an Exhaust on a 70 second cooldown, plus true damage), the Gromp buff, increased objective control and the ability to easily farm the jungle with little consequence that makes the strategy so powerful. Note that most teams will only have one threat to the main tank come lategame, so just smite that carry and you're surviving that much longer.

DJ Di01 votes

I think you're underestimating just how strong this thing is, and just looking at the HP portion of the math.

Jungler Tanks can easily get to 5k health with this now; and combined with Gromp buff, will be dealing up to 400 damage over 3 seconds per champion attacking them. If all 5 enemy champions were to be attacking that tank, they'd be dealt a combined total of 2000 damage ever three seconds. Now of course this is also just math; I would hope teams don't immediately focus a tank in teamfights, but I'm just trying to show it's potential.

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