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Being able to outplay something 1v1 should not be the golden standard of counterplay

Euriko·9/13/2017, 7:24:50 PM·61 votes·2,958 views

Recently we've seen a lot of reworks aiming to bring more "counterplay" to champion's kits simply by including delays and other specific prerequisites for them to access a certain part of their kits. The Assassin rework is a prime example for this, as is Xin Zhao's rework that was revealed a mere day ago. Assassin's were given delays like Leblanc's Sigil of Malice that locks a significant part of her damage behind waiting her mark to be primed or Talon's passive where he has to hit sequential abilities to access a lot of his damage potential.

This shows that Riot seems to be obsessed with adding a lot of ways to avoid damage in league and them striving to make everything "fairer" and "outplayable". Yet this is a very problematic approach due to games like League needing some sort of reliability.

Going back to the point of everything starting to get LCS-levels of outplay potential I would like to bring forth my humble view on things: Not everything has to be outplayable in an 1 on 1 scenario.

This result in some champions failing to do what they were intended to do, like Assassin's failing to, well, assassinate fragile champions as shown by these boards usually referring to those situations where a class fails to do their job.

Frustration is a given, especially in a game like league of legends where dying never feels enjoyable, unless you're someone like Karthus who has a death-related passive aspect to his kit, but I'm digressing. Frustration in a one on one scenario is a bad factor when judging game health and if a champion is balanced or not as this game is a TEAM game where five players fight against another team of, most of the time, evenly matched players.

A champion might seem to lack counterplay in a duel scenario but is perfectly balanced in regards to the team effort it takes to win a game. Malzahar is a prime example of this. While he lacks outlay potential beyond buying a Quicksilver Sash the Prophet of the Void's team fighting is balanced due to the fact of him having to stand still when channeling his nether grasp.

Now unto a very controversial topic: Marksmen, or ADC's for short, and how they have a rather good concept behind them.

Their fantasy of late game damage carries is a good one and it's the concept the entire class is based around. Their reliable DPS from range being what defines them as a class and in a 1 on 1 scenario they lack counterplay due to a good ADC being able to kite and apply damage when played properly.

In an ideal world they'd lose to other classes in a one on one who have less counterplay than them, I.E Assassins and some divers, but this is no longer the case due to the Assassin rework.

They'd be balanced around being very fragile too, making them the prime target to be focused in team fights. Where their damage can be interrupted by a front line and their kiting can be rendered useless by an opposing Tank's crowd control. Yet due to the meta heavily being warped in favor of defensive shielding and heals this form of counterplay falls short, meaning that ADC's as a class lack any form of counterplay in 1v1's or in 5v5's.

Their concept and champion fantasy is a sound one that works well in a Moba but the execution is lacking as of late, mostly due to Riot adding "counterplay" to their natural predators and making them fairer, as well as skewing the meta in their favor.

And even then there are examples of Well designed Hyper carries. Vayne, the Night Hunter, even though despised by many, is the perfect example of a well designed Attack damage carry.

In a 1v1 she might lack a lot of counterplay due to the nature of her kit but in the grand scheme of things she has plenty of counterplay. Her damage, unlike other ADC's through Runaans hurricane and other AoE items, is exclusively single target and in a 5v5 she's susceptible to being locked down by the enemy's cc, get blasted by stray AoE or not being able to just tackle all the opposing threats at once.

Which brings me to the main point I want to make: This game has been team based since it's inception and thus should be balanced around the 5v5 aspect of it in terms of counterplay as people always expect to be able to outplay literally everything. When, in fact, that's never going to be possible as the game needs reliability in form of point and click abilities and other "low-counterplay" designs.

Thus I'm a firm believer that a champion should never be reworked because of their One on One counterplay, or lack thereof, but rather due to frustrating aspects in the laning phase. A champion might seem oppressive in a one on one scenario but be perfectly balanced in the grand scheme of things, meaning that every champion is going to have some form of counterplay available to the enemy.

Tl; DR: Please, read the entirety of it. But for those with little time to waste: Not everything has to be MLG dodges and outplayable in a 1v1 scenario and Riot should stop trying to remove that aspect of the game as it is needed to have some form of reliability without having to make certain abilities too overwhelming.

This is a team game and thus should be balanced as such.

http://www.gamesear.com/images/2015/12/MLG-is-going-out-of-business-and-selling-its-assets-to-activision-blizzard.jpg

79 Comments

Penns9/13/2017, 7:37:30 PM11 votes

vayne would be fine if she didnt assassinate faster than almost any assassin

cant wait for next patches hehe

Mens Hair Club9/13/2017, 7:30:48 PM10 votes

+1 except i can't because im level 8

not much to add to this so i'll just give u a bump

Salson9/14/2017, 8:16:16 AM7 votes

And even then there are examples of Well designed Hyper carries. Vayne, the Night Hunter, even though despised by many, is the perfect example of a well designed Attack damage carry.

Ah yes, a Marksman owning everything in a 1v1.

Vayne is actually one of the worst designed Marksman, as the only way she can even appear in pro play is by breaking her numbers five times over. There is nothing team based about Vayne, she is a 100% SoloQ incarnate.

Teridax689/14/2017, 2:19:49 AM7 votes

I have mixed feelings about this post's core point. On one hand, I agree that Riot's method of counterplay via delays, telegraphing, etc. does not work on all champions, and prioritizes quick reactions exclusively over many other forms of strategic or tactical interaction. Applying it homogeneously to assassins, when some like LeBlanc really don't want to (and shouldn't) stand around and wait for too long, has not been exceptionally successful. This kind of counterplay cannot work on all classes (supports can't really work with delayed abilities), and we're starting to see the same effects getting overused, such as the cone-line dual-hit combo that is now on Xin Zhao after Rengar and Sejuani, so in that respect we shouldn't need every champion to be outplayable in the same way.

With that said, I think the only reason champions shouldn't all have that kind of counterplay is because there are more forms of it that would work better on them, and I do believe any champion should at least have a chance at outplaying their opponent 1v1, even if their chances are only slim (i.e. in the case of a marksman versus an assassin). Assassins may not always need counterplay in the form of delays, skillshots, charge-ups, etc., but some could definitely use counterplay in the form of more ways to retaliate against them, and more opportunities to do so. They shouldn't be lacking in counterplay 1v1 simply because they're meant to be a duelist class, as that's not fun for anyone. What they should be is innately advantaged 1v1 versus squishy targets, and by that rationale marksmen, most of whom are meant to be teamfighters, should be having extra amounts of duel-based counterplay, yet they are currently far too reliable. Kog'Maw, for example, ends up being too good at standing still and shredding targets 1v1 (including assassins) once he completes his core build, and that same excessively reliable damage applies to pretty much every other marksman out there, including Vayne.

In the end, it boils down to what kind of counterplay you want your champion to have, and not putting too many eggs in one basket: for sure, grouping up is a valid form of counterplay, and should be a means to punish champions if they don't respect that, but it cannot be the only form of counterplay you give your champions. The same goes for quick mechanical outplays, which often favor mobile champions too much. Currently, we already have a subclass built around just one form of counterplay, and that's juggernauts, whose performance is so harshly affected by kiting that they either tend to have few to no options against those who can kite them (usually ranged targets), while giving no real options to those who can't (usually melee opponents). They are the perfect example of champions who need more than just one form of counterplay, and I think the same can apply to any class: this doesn't mean everybody should be equally outplayable 1v1, but I do think it should mean that even the most duel-focused assassin should give their opponent at least some way of outplaying them alone, whether it be by dodging their stuff or simply making better tactical decisions through positioning or objectives. It doesn't have to be a total outplay, and they should still have a very large advantage in those situations, but at least some interactivity would be good enough.

TyrekGoldenspear9/13/2017, 7:54:59 PM6 votes

Something I'd like to point out.

The boarda hail skillshots as the most fair thing since affirmative action...

But the fairness isn't there for everyone.

The two ranged champs throwing skillshots at each other will notice a targeted ability.

The melee that has to run into the mages face will not be able to differentiate between a targeted ability or a skillshot.

Doozku9/14/2017, 12:10:49 AM5 votes

When an Assassin shows up in your side lane and you are an ADC alone, you should be 100% dead no exceptions except maybe Vayne. The Assassin just "outplayed" you. The problem is that people especially in lower elos don't see it that way and think "wow there's nothing I could have done to not die to that Assassin," which is what leads Riot to add counterplay to every single Assassin just so that low elo people can think "well maybe if I dodged that skillshot I could have lived," while high elo people dodge the skillshot and therefore invalidate the entire point of the class.

This leads to the problem where Assassins are basically now impossible to balance when doing their actual job. Either they're damage is so high that they invalidate their counterplay (item 3147) or its not like that and ADC's can beat Assassins consistently. Right now, the only reason you pick an Assassin is to snowball the early game and splitpush mid game. Your late game doesn't exist as an Assassin right now because you can't touch an ADC ever without getting blown up. Sure, Assassins are doing fine right now, but I don't think that they should stay in the state that they are in (basically pantheon the class.)

Theorchero9/14/2017, 9:26:48 AM1 votes

Fuck that, outplaying someone is a perfectly valid way to offer counterplay.

It's complete bullshit to demand extremely easy solutions that the enemy can't do shit about, like building an item to negate their existence.

You cannot complain that you got outplayed and demand more counterplay. If you get outplayed you got shit on by a better player and you deserve it.

Do not balance this game around silver because it's such a fucking joke. Even Platinum is a fucking joke. Trying to balance the game around bad players is extremely irresponsible because they can just pull their head out of their ass and learn how to deal with whatever they're having issues against instead of crying for shit to get nerfed or reworked.

HenzoAF9/13/2017, 7:26:39 PM1 votes

Kayn Shadow Assassin WQ combo instantly One Shot people. :/