(Theory Crafting) Is there such a thing as counters?

i5rggN7jJS·Feb 17, 2015·3 votes·1,315 views

Hi,

I've been playing league for about 2-3 years now, and I've always noticed how people say "x champion counters x champion", usually in an excuse to give for losing the lane matchup or covering up for skill loss. But I've really wondered, is there such a thing as counters? If you look at the absolute highest level of play, and highest level of play is an arbitrary term since know one really knows what that is, but players such as Faker from SKT took matchups that people said "countered" yet Faker absolutely dominated them in lane.

So my theory is, isn't just being the better player going to win you the lane, and eventual game? I mean, you can say x argument or this and that, but honestly, if you're just the better player, won't you know how to just beat the opponent your facing?

Any insight thoughts or perspectives on this?

Thanks

20 Comments

Raise DongrsFeb 17, 20152 votes

~~They will remember Yorick Mori~~

SlopestyleFeb 17, 20152 votes

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Of course a Challenger Level player will be able to beat a lower skilled player, not because of the champion, because of the knowledge they have over that person. You should be looking at cases where the two are equal skill level and then look at the match ups. Some champions kits simply have everything necessary to make another champion's kit useless. The skill part is knowing when to use what ability to counter certain things. Of course if someone picks someone just because champion x counters champion y and they dont know how to play the match up, player x will probably lose, but thats not because that champion doesnt counter champion y its because player y knew how to play the match up. Counters exist in an equal playing level and when the player understand how to play the match up.

Katarina vs Riven.

Katarina has mobility, riven has more, katarina ults? Riven can stun or knock her up, Katarina throws her q, riven uses her E, and takes no damage. Katarina would be able to do nothing while Riven simply dominates. Perfect example.

Volt CruelerzFeb 17, 20151 votes

PBE Veigar vs LB.

Take Vlad vs Fiddle.

Syndra vs Heimy.

Xerath vs Ryze.

Caitlyn vs Vayne.

Xerath vs Yasuo.

Diana vs Kat.

These are fairly extreme cases, but they definitely exist.

i5rggN7jJSFeb 17, 20151 votes

Can you give more insightful information on that? Being the better player, won't you know how to play around her cooldowns and stun her down at the proper time? Are you saying that no matter what, you will lose that lane 100%?

Volt CruelerzFeb 17, 20151 votes

Of course not. I, who play lots of Veigar, would not lose to a celery stick playing LB. But against a player that is equal to my skill, I will lose most of the time. In that matchup in particular, I'd expect my win rate to be below 40%. Some champions have very high win rates versus other ones. Right now, Ahri is dominating LB in mid lane with a 57% win rate.

A counter is not rock paper scissors in a game like league. A soft counter is someone that causes win rate to deviate from 50% by around 3%, assuming players of equal skill. A moderate counter then would be a deviation of 5-6%. If you're getting into 7+% territory, you're talking about a hard counter.

The idea of a counter is that champion select, not actual gameplay has a hand in determining the outcome of the game. The harder the counter, the bigger the influence.

i5rggN7jJSFeb 17, 20151 votes

Oh yeah... okay this is going to be kinda controversial but I don't think there is such thing as a equal leveled player.

Because if there was such a thing as an "equal" player, then by that, you're saying that nothing would happen in game since you guys are completely equal. But leagues not like that, someone will make a mistake, by getting hit by a skillshot, walking up too far, etc, meaning if you do that, you are not the better player, and therefore not equal.

EDIT: There can be extremely close leveled players, but not completely equal players.

Volt CruelerzFeb 17, 20153 votes

In practice, no. But You can generalize the millions of league games played per day. The fact of the matter is, Ahri players, when playing LB players of similar skill win 57% of the time. Obviously a Bronze Ahri is going to lose to a Plat LB, but that's not the point of counters. A counter simply means that picking champion X versus champion Y changes the average win rate from 50% to Z%. Particular games don't matter. Average win rates do.

And I'm not saying that at all. If I played a replica of myself, one of us would lose the game. One would make a mistake. But if I played Azir against myself repeatedly, my clone would after thousands of games have a win rate that is something on the order of 50% +/- 0.00X%. When talking about a player's skill, you talk about their average performance, not their performance in any particular game. I might make 50 major mistakes in game 432 against my clone so I lose hard, but in game 433, he might have the same problem, so in the end, we average out at 50%.

Chaotic ReksFeb 17, 20151 votes

Zed vs all of them

redniwediSFeb 17, 20151 votes

Some "counters" are nothing more than people bitching about being in an unfavorable matchup. Other counters are exactly like the name implies, with one champion having enough tools to shut down the other so that the best they can do is survive the laning phase.

An example of the first would be Lissandra vs Zed. An example of the second would be Lissandra vs Garen.

i5rggN7jJSFeb 17, 20151 votes

In an extreme example, wouldn't a challenger level Zed beat a silver level Lissandra? That just goes back to my original argument of being, if you're just the better player, won't you beat them?

redniwediSFeb 17, 20151 votes

Yes. Lissandra vs Zed is an unfavorable matchup for Zed due to Lissandra's kit, however it is a matchup that a Zed of equal or greater skill can still win if played correctly.

However my other example, Lissandra vs Garen, describes a matchup where without jungle intervention (and sometimes with it) one champion will dominate another almost regardless of player skill.

Lord DusteonFeb 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

In an extreme example, wouldn't a challenger level Zed beat a silver level Lissandra? That just goes back to my original argument of being, if you're just the better player, won't you beat them?

That's because League has VERY few hard counters; most champions have soft counters (such as Liss vs Zed), which gives one champion an advantage over the other. These soft counters (as with most of league being a skill matchup) are NOT "I win lane 100% of the time"; the matchups are still skill, just with one champion having a higher chance of winning ASSUMING EQUAL SKILL.

However, League DOES have a few hard counter champions; Darius is going to murder most melees even without being good (a Silver Darius could probably beat a Platinum Renekton), while being literally useless vs most ranged champions (a Silver Lissandra could probably beat a Platinum Renekton).

Either way, counters exist.

wolfaxFeb 17, 20151 votes

You're looking at it completely wrong. Lissandra doesn't immediately win against Zed because she exists. She doesn't turn off Zed's kit or anything like that. But if you're playing people at the same skill level as you your win rate will probably be 30-40% for a matchup. That's what a couner in League looks like.

SlytherinUmbreonFeb 17, 20151 votes

Yes, there's still a such thing as counters. The entire reason why skill needs to be factored into bad match ups is because bad match ups exist.

i5rggN7jJSFeb 17, 20152 votes

Hm, never thought of it like that, good insight.

Thanks

ErockandrollFeb 17, 20151 votes

The win ratio Between counters are 60-40 according to Riot. This means that counter picking in the pick and ban phase by no means guaranties a win in your lane. It also shows how one champion can become OP with anothers nerf. (with this delicate a balance.)

OrangesilkFeb 17, 20151 votes

Actually, that's the reason why LeBlanc is even picked by pros, she is a great way to shut down several midlaners laning phase. Same goes for Lissandra on the toplane, that doesn't mean the lane is over from champion select, but it certainly helps your odds. That's why Zilean was so broken, since he was a perfectly viable midlaner and support, he was impossible to counterpick, and any attempt at counterpicking him would end badly.

xLegendary TrollFeb 17, 20151 votes

Yes. The best example is Garen vs Teemo .

Normally people think Teemo counters Garen, but if you're used to the match up like I am, you can quickly turn the tides and make the matchup favor you instead.

Also Garen vs Darius . Most people would argue that Darius can 100-0 Garen, but all Garen has to do his max his Q first and W his Q when you go in for the silence and then quickly retreat to heal the damage he does with his passive. Keep doing this until you force him to back.

I've been playing for a while. You can ask me about any counter pick and I'll tell you how to counter the counter :)

AndyChronoFeb 17, 20151 votes

There aren't any Absolute Counters as in: "If enemy picks X and I pick Y, then I win 100% of the time."

There are however, some hard/soft counters which can give big/small advantages respectively. However this relationship only holds in a 1v1 situation. Since League is a team game, usually the side with the disadvantage should call for Jungler help in lane to balance the scales. Furthermore, hopefully your team drafted some champs that can cover your weaknesses in mid/lategame team fights.

Just as a personal anecdote, back in S4 I mained Malzahar in my Ranked 5's, and was occasionally matched against Yasuo , Zed , and Ahri players who I found out afterwards were Gold / Platinum in Solo Q and was able to hold my own even though I was only a Bronze 1 Solo Q player. Funnily enough, one of them even asked me afterwards if I was a smurf! Thus, I've experienced firsthand the power of counters to swing what should have been a total stomp for those players into an even matchup for me, and I'm probably not the only one.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 17, 20151 votes

[I haven't read the comments, so if what I say has already been said, I was not aware]

Counters exist; however, Riot has been moving away from *hard-*counters in League of Legends.

The difference between a hard-counter and a soft-counter, to give one example, is the difference between Roshambo (Rock-Paper-Scissors) and the Weapon Triangle (Fire Emblem's Swords>Axes>Lances>Swords balance).

A hard-counter implies that there is no way for one to beat its weakness. Rock will never lose to Scissors, not even if you say they're made of Adamantine. Paper will never lose to Rock, even if it's a rock of Dark Matter. Scissors will never lose to Paper, even if you say it's a stack of 1000 sheets.

A soft-counter says that one has an advantage against the other. In Fire Emblem, a character wielding a sword gains a natural advantage against a character wielding an axe; they have a higher chance to hit them, and to avoid their attacks as well. However, there are ways to get around this weakness; characters can learn abilities that negate or reverse this weakness, or they can wield a Swordreaver/Axereaver/Lancereaver, a weapon that specifically reverses the weapon triangle.

Riot prefers for League of Legends to have soft-counters. You can counter-pick a champion--that is, you can choose someone who has abilities that play on their weaknesses--but it still requires that you out-play them. You can't guarantee that counter-picking will give you an advantage, because it's possible that they practice playing that specific match-up to level the playing field, but you can't deny that it's more difficult than other match-ups, either.