Brainstorming New Jungle Items

Raekwaanza··18 votes·1,288 views

I recently just watched this video and realized that a lot of what Stonewall says is practical. As it stands, from my viewpoint, the new jungle only caters to a few. Whenever one of the jungle items is changed in someway, it seems that the champions (and play styles) that benefit the most will become almost completely dominant. Now either way any change to the game will have some sort of similar affect, however, due to the nature of the jungle, these changes (as small as they seem to be) always have the greatest effect on the game. For example, before the changes to the jungle it felt as if you had much more options to jungle with. Not to say that the options available to you where actually usable as to your team composition or the meta in general; but you were actually able to start a game and at 1:55 you wouldn't be at too much of an advantage or disadvantage. Now it feels that if you want to jungle you're going to be stuck with very few options available to you, as it feels the items that have the greatest benefit are what have to chosen. In all honesty this will always happen, but it seems that there are never situational item picks. Its just "pick this, hope your item benefits your jungler more, if so, bully the enemy into submission, if not, attempt benefit your team in a greater way than your opponent is". After watching this I believe that these ideas could be amazing if implemented correctly; I just hope someone looks at this and at least recognizes that something of this sort could be done.

13 Comments

g07h4xf003 votes

Riot just needs to add a crapload of new items. Back in season two there were plenty of awesome items (RIP Force of Nature). Bring some of them back and introduce newer items. Itemization in this game is too fucking dull.

Hard4Hamsters3 votes

I really like this idea. Items like Quill Coat and Spirit Stone would probably need tweaked a little as they are essentially upgraded machettes, basically bringing down the items to a level more on par with Machette on AD junglers, taking away the 20armor from quillcoat and reducing the bonus damage on Spirit Stone would be necessary. I see a problem with having Quill Coat and Cinderhulk Enchant at the same time as the sapping barbs and immolate passives would be strange to balance around when it comes to Baron and Dragon, but there is a possibility to add a part of the passive to include special interactions with Epic Monsters.

I really like the idea of bringing back Juggernaut and Magus as I thought it was kinda BS that different styles of AP and Tank junglers got screwed in the process. I will say that Runeglaive and Cinderhulk were overall better than both of these old enchants, but some champions really wanted CDR and Tenacity over clearspeed, moderate damage, and lategame tankiness. For instance, Elise was a champion who benefited heavily from the old Juggernaut over Cinderhulk as she wanted immediate stats that could be useful instead of scaling stats that would try and help her weak lategame. Her clearspeed was already among the fastest in the game, so Cinderhulk didn't help her there either, but I think it is still a better option than Runeglaive or Magus. Other champions that would use Juggernaut over Cinderhulk would be strong initiators and more midgame focused tanks/fighters, but some would have to make a choice on whether to get Juggernaut or Cinderhulk based on the situation and what the team needs.

I like the Guardian's Horn passive/active idea as a replacement for Tenacity as it makes you feel like this unstoppable juggernaut chasing down the enemy team. Magus I still think needs a little tweaking as I do think it is too generic. I feel like it would be difficult to make it so Runeglaive and Magus have unique strengths as you can easily see the difference in strengths of Cinderhulk and Juggernaut one being a more initiator focused, or mid-game focused item and the other being more of a power farming tool and lategame hyper tank item. Runeglaive is obviously going to be for spellblade users which are more focused on the early and midgame assassination potential they have, so I see it as pretty fine where it is (though it might be OP right now), but Magus is tricky as the item should be for pure Mages but it shouldn't be just hands down better than Runeglaive for spellblade champions, so giving it a worthwhile passive/active would be hard to do. I REALLY like 20%CDR for Magus as it encourages these Mages to use more and more abilities, but the amount of AP it should give is dependent on how strong the Magus passive would be.

As a little side note, I think Warrior is too generic as well right now; it has had an iteration on the PBE that looked a lot like the old SotEL, but was taken off probably due to it being too strong on certain junglers (*cough LeeSin). I do think that this idea is still solid, but needs tweaking to not just favor the highest base damage junglers.

Basically what I want to ask anyone who reads this rant is what passive/active they would give Magus that would make it strong on the Mage junglers without being hand down better than Runeglaive on everyone (Eve, Diana, Fizz, and Ekko should probably want Runeglaive if they are going AP; judgement call on Nidalee as CDR and more AP benefits her siege power). While writing this I've thought about something that might work. Magus could include a smaller Liandry's style DOT passive (1% instead of 2%). Most of the pure mage junglers have some sort of spammable or DOT ability that would keep the passive on at all times and it would help them with clears as well. The enchant could have 60AP and would be a definite different strength for an AP jungler to have. So in the end, the AP jungler would choose between burst damage in Runeglaive, or consistent damage in Magus which benefits different junglers in different ways.

So my suggestion for a relaunched Magus would go as follows. Magus Enchant: 60AP__ 20%CDR__Unique Passive--Burning Tears: Dealing spell damage applies a damage-over-time effect that deals bonus magic damage equal to 1% of the target's current health per second for 3 seconds. This bonus damage is doubled against monsters and movement-impaired enemy units (capped at 100 damage per second vs. monsters). This could be modified if it is overpowered or underpowered but I think it is particularly strong on champions like Karthus, Fiddles, and Amumu. The Burning Tears passive would have to be added to Liandry's to make sure the passives couldn't stack. Tell me what you think. Peace.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

If you actually watched the video, you'd know that Stonewall didn't want to bring back the OLD Sprit stone and Quill coat. he wanted to bring them back as 400 gold items that shared the starting jungle item space with Machete.

Hard4Hamsters2 votes

I did watch the video, but he didn't suggest how he would bring them down to a more starting jungle item level, he just stated how they benefited spell using and tank junglers respectively. He did state that Spirit stone would work only on magic damage, but didn't go further than that; 20% bonus damage to jungle camps is huge in the first clear even if it is just on magic damage abilities so it should be toned down a notch. His suggestion for quillcoat seemed a little bit much honestly and I think it would be a little too strong for early clears and I don't think that most tank junglers really have that difficult of a time in their first clear, and quill coat's old sapping barbs would be enough to improve upon that alone, the addition of a shield that popped and did additional burst damage to camps I feel is too much as Tank Junglers in all honestly SHOULD have a slower clear, but they should also maintain a higher health than the average AD jungler and sapping barbs is a passive that does just that. A consistent clear that keeps you high in health as a tank jungler.

I understand that he wanted these items to be starting jungle items, but I just wanted to bring up how they could be reduced to be more on par with Hunter's Machette, because though I agree with Stonewall, he doesn't suggest how he would do that.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

A lot of Stonewall's ideas are good, and he has a pretty solid understanding of the jungle, but I'm not sure that I like his ideas.

Adding two jungle enchantments for each type of champion (AD, AP, and tanks) actually threatens jungle diversity a lot more than having a one-size-fits-all enchantment. With two enchantments, the entire jungle champion pool of each class would be skewed to whichever enchantment is stronger, and everyone that would rather take the other enchantment would either take the stronger enchantment or take the weaker enchantment and be at a disadvantage either way.

This is an especially big problem for a AP junglers because there are so few meta AP junglers and there are so many AP champions that could be good junglers but don't have bad enough mana problems that they can't use Magus but have bad enough synergy with Sheen effects to use Runeglaive. It's like you have two jungle items in the game and a third is needed to give diversity.

Three starting items for each type of champion (AD, AP, and tanks) also seems like a good idea, but I'm afraid that it makes the jungle too complex. With one starting option, it's easy to see which starting option is the best because there's only one starting option.

Three starting options makes it harder for players to determine whichever starting option is the best because there are a lot more variables to check (especially since there are no stats on any of them to specically point you in the right direction), with some differences in how the jungle items would work, especially the new Quill Coat, whose description sounds super confusing and might cause some gameplay clarity problems with Tahm Kench and other champions that use the grey health system in the future. This isn't a problem for experienced jungle players, but for newer players the jungle might be unplayably complex.

Hard4Hamsters2 votes

I don't think you give players enough credit when you state that 3 items will make the jungle too complex. I feel that by the time you are equipped to jungle: around lvl30 with adequate runes (it can be done earlier, but not without struggling), you should have a firm grasp of what items will be best suited for each jungler; kinda like how there are 3 doran's items, and people generally know which one fits their champion the best (though not all of the time). People understand build paths well enough to know that you should grab a longsword if you want to build brutalizer or cutlass with it later, and the same can be said about things like Amp tome and ruby crystal (though now all health items build out of it).

I don't like his suggestion on quill coat as it does make the item way more complex than it needs to be. Give it Sapping barbs and that's all tank junglers really need, not some overly complex grey health system that acts like a Sion shield to burst down camps. But besides that I like the idea of having 2 or 3 jungle item starts for junglers as this is the only way to put junglers on nearly equal grounds when starting the game which is where real problems arise as a Tank or AP jungler. Machette currently only REALLY favors AD junglers.

Honestly, new players (lvl1-30) probably shouldn't jungle as it is one of the more macro oriented roles (if not the most) in the game where you have to use more than just mechanical skill to play correctly. A new player without as much experience will have a lot of trouble in the jungle regardless of having to choose a starting item. Recommended items are also a thing for new players to utilize and it wouldn't be hard for the Gameplay team to add respective recommended items for each jungler in the role they are most prominently played: Hunter's Machette for Vi, Quill Coat for Sejuani, and Spirit Stone for Elise.

Now a more experienced jungler may look at the matchup and say to themself "you know what, I picked Vi, but I think we are going to need a tank more than extra damage for this team, so I'm going to use Quill Coat instead so I can have access to Juggernaut/Cinderhulk", the same could be said for taking Spirit Stone on Sejuani (for Magus) if you wanted to use an AP build, Quill Coat on Elise for a tankier build, or Eve with Hunter's Machette for her AD build.

A player new to the jungle might just build the recommended items and can still do rather well just as someone can build all of the recommended items for Garen in the Toplane and do well without considering the matchup. If you think that having multiple items in the jungle is overly complicated for new players, just consider how complicated this game actually is. It takes months to years to get a decent grasp of all of the moving parts that make this game work, adding a little bit more complexity to the game will not suddenly break it. A lot of items have different build paths and a lot of us have these things memorized through experience, and that's all it takes for someone to get an understanding of items and build paths and really that's all we are talking about here as these items are kinda tailor made for each style of jungler and build into the items that they will plan on using.

On the topic of it will be more difficult to balance these items as the stronger one will always win out. People are mad about Runeglaive because it pigeon-holed AP junglers to basically only be those who use Spellblade effects well. If you were to reintroduce Magus with a passive that would favor pure mages over AP fighters, you wouldn't see Fiddlesticks grabbing Runeglaive even if it was technically stronger and on the reverse side, Diana probably wouldn't want Magus as her kit synergizes so well with Runeglaive (one could argue that she could buy Lichbane as a replacement and just use Magus but that would be the players choice, and likely, she would be better off getting Runeglaive instead of delaying her power spike). If one item is the only one seen in play (let's say noone uses Runeglaive), you would want to buff the item or nerf Magus as it shouldn't be a hands down superior item on all AP junglers.

We already see this in Devourer and Warrior, almost any champion who can use Devourer can use Warrior as well, but the items are different enough, that champions that synergize better with Devourer will pick the item over Warrior as they feel it will give them more power for that particular playstyle. Juggernaut and Cinderhulk are different enough in that Juggernaut will give you more immediate HP when you buy it and with Stonewall's suggested change, it would make for a stronger initiator type tank/fighter (this is made even more important now that Righteous Glory has been nerfed), whereas Cinderhulk would be a better option for tanks who want to reach that lategame hypertank status with 500+ bonus HP from the Cinderhulk passive (with some extra AOE damage).

This is really the only set of items that I think would be more difficult to balance as the tankier junglers can easily make use out of either of these two unique roles (with some heavily preferring one over the other). Whereas in the case of the Warrior/Devourer and Runeglaive/Magus, each of these sets would have items tailored to Fighters and Carries. The distinction between a Juggernaut style run-at-you Tank and a damage soaking hyper Cinderhulk Tank isn't as clear, possibly leading to tanks/tanky fighters only picking the one that is the strongest at the time (which is sometimes dictated by the meta).

Anyway. That's my rant. You can check my rant below to see how I come up with a new Magus Enchant that would be preferred by the pure Mage junglers and write your opinions. Later homie. Peace.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

The jungle is complex enough that a player that gets to level 30 before he starts jungling might have trouble actually jungling, and won't get a good grasp of it until he's played a few games with it. I remember at the start of the season it took me 2-3 games to get used to the new jungle, and I main jungle. I can't imagine how someone who never jungled before would fare in season 5's jungle.

Adding two new items for the jungle might make it unplayable for these kinds of people who are trying out jungle for the first time, because it might make it far too complex for them to handle. Recommended items might help, but only for those who are meta junglers and recognized as meta junglers. A jungler like Gragas or J4 might have his items assuming he is laning, and therefore may not have his recommended items tuned to have the jungle items.

Machete also isn't a bad item for non-ad junglers. It's DoT passive makes it so that it doesn't matter if you attack really fast or really slow, that you will get roughly similar value out of it, maybe slightly faster if it proc it's first damage tick on auto attack, while the health regen passive distinctly benefits champions with slower clears because they get more value out of it. If it benefits AD junglers, it doesn't do it too heavily.

On the topic of balance, it is unreasonable to expect the items to be balanced with each supporting different kinds of champions, but the truth is that there's always going to be one option stronger than the other, and there's not going to be a situation where both options are balanced with each other. It's not anything wrong with the game or Riot, it's just the sad truth of game design. You want to think they can be balanced, but they never could be balanced.

This also doesn't include the fact that Cinderhulk and Runeglaive were both designed to fix problems that certain types of junglers had (Cinderhulk was designed to fix tank's clearing problems, Runeglaive was designed to fix AP champ's mana problems), and both Juggernaut and Magus completely ignore those problems, nor do the base items fix it (Spirit Stone won't fix the mana problems if it's only on magic damage, while Quill Coat helps but I'm not sure if it fixes the clearing problems).

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

Okay I will just leave with this. Cinderhulk and Runeglaive didn't really solve the problems that certain junglers had. The most problematic times for AP and Tank junglers are during the early game. By the time they get their jungle item, they are a lot better off in terms of clear speed and mana sustain. Riot never really helped these junglers at this phase in the game because AD junglers were already strong/fine in this area. When you have an item that is supposed to be one size fits all, you run into balance problems because you can't buff the item without buffing the champions who are strong with it already. You can compare this to having Recurve Bow (or a mini version) as the only starting item for laners because, hey, it gives Attack Speed and on hit damage which is useful on ALL champions, but it neglects the differences in champions and who can use this item the best early on.

Even if one item of each genre is more powerful than the other, there is another option for the champions who can't use it well. Runeglaive and Magus (or a modified version of it; see the post below) are examples of this. Runeglaive does not benefit Fiddles, Karthus, or Amumu, but (if they are building as an AP jungler) they don't have another option, so if Runeglaive is stronger than Magus, they don't benefit from it so they will still build Magus. This is why you don't see Diana building Warrior enchant right now (I know this is an extreme case); it simply doesn't benefit her. You are comparing Apples and Oranges here.

I already stated that the only exception would be Juggernaut and Cinderhulk enchant as the difference between the two is less dramatic than Runeglaive/Magus and Warrior/Devourer. In this case, I can see most Tank Junglers building Cinderhulk over Juggernaut, but some champions DID and WILL prefer Juggernaut as the earlier power, CDR, and Tenacity were preferred, but as of now, their ONLY choice is Cinderhulk and if Quill Coat is what they build from, clear speed won't be as much of a problem as it was before.

Finally, I'm not saying that different starting items will FIX AP Junglers mana problems or Tank junglers clear speed, but they will SUPPLEMENT their early jungling better than Hunter's Machette currently does. Peace.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Cinderhulk and Runeglaive didn't fix early problems, but it did fix mid-game problems extremely well.

Tank junglers did have significant clear speed problems in the mid game, and Cinderhulk fixed those problems just like Quill Coat did for tank junglers in season 4.

AP junglers had severe mana problems that single-handedly prevented many AP champions from jungling at all, and Runeglaive fixed these problems, albeit at the expense of other problems. Mana problems didn't affect most meta AP junglers like Fiddlesticks orNidalee , but for many others that could be junglers if they didn't have mana problems like Malzahar or Zyra Runeglaive single-handedly made better, and the only reason it didn't make them viable is because they can't use Sheen procs well outside of its mana regeneration case.

Lickmymeatyjunk1 votes

I fell like Riot just needs time to get the balancing right on these new items, before we can even think about the play styles with them.

UE Chrome4 votes

LOL, if we can't discover the right play styles with these items now, then their future updates could break anything good about the play styles they have now.

Remlap12231 votes

Honestly, bring back Magus and remove Sated Devourer. Bring back Juggernaut and rework Poacher's Knife.

You can use the yellow gemstone from Sated Devourer to Runeglaive, and make Cinderhulk's orange or something.

Magus would have the same stats that it did, with the CDR being replaced with spell vamp.

Juggernaut gives tenacity like it did, and give it something to spice it up and differentiate it from Cinderhulk.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Call me a sucker who can't see past his own aesthetic tastes. There's only one reason I'm not fully on-board for this; I've grown attached to this system with a seeming order and scheme to it. It has no effect on gameplay (as these changes would), but still.

Put simply, I like the all-purpose blade evolving into a more specialized tool for what you need. The machete turns into a poacher's knife, a ranger's axe, a stalker's sword, a skirmisher's saber; all still blades. I like how every jungle "blade" has a slot for their gem enchantment, which you can actually see in the slot. That just makes sense in my head –it's a treat. There'd need to be an order to these new items. Tanks get spiky quilt, mages get a rock, and AD gets a machete?

My gripe is totally meaningless, but there's the compulsion to make it "right".

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