Conqueror on ADC [New Rune]

Bretay··2 votes·16,398 views

I hope I'm wrong, but I fear I might not be. My fear is the new rune will replace Last Whisper on ADCs that want to avoid that 1300g detour in their late game builds.


Everyone has been talking about how the new rune (conqueror) is great on top lane bruisers who were previously shoehorned into taking things that didn't quite fit their kits, things like Comet or Spellbook or Grasp. I haven't heard people considering how this rune might be used on ADCs (Marksmen) too much.

You prep it on the wave, and when it triggers you get a free longsword at level 1 in raw AD. A longsword and a half at level 5. Press the Attack is a good amount more damage, but it should be more raw damage, because you need three autos on the same target to get anything out of it, and that's the big part of what Press the Attack does: raw damage. The big part of Conqueror is yet to come:

If you have 150 AD and attack a target with 100 base armor and 200 bonus armor (so 300 total armor) and you will deal 37.5 damage. If you have the same situation with Last Whisper's passive, you will deal 45.5 damage. (8 more damage, 21% increase) If you have the same situation without Last Whisper's passive, but with Conqueror's damage conversion active, you will deal 66.4 damage. (28.9 more damage, 77% increase)

Last Whisper will get better as they stack more bonus armor, but Conqueror looks even better against targets with less bonus armor. 200 bonus armor, 300 total armor is already a decent amount of armor (assuming the tank isn't allowed to heavy stack because of an issue in your team's draft).

I'm afraid that this means ADCs will be able to take this rune and completely skip Last Whisper. Yes, it has down time while Last Whisper obviously does not, but with the way the rune currently works, the down time can be circumvented. Were you clearing a minion wave? Were you hitting dragon/rift/baron? Were you hitting a tower? Were you hitting a rift scuttler? Did you land some poke? Did you attack a ward? Also note that "in combat for 4 seconds" is almost identical to "hitting two instances of damage." A single damage instance you "in combat" for 3 seconds, so if you land another in that 3 second window, you have been "in combat for 4 seconds." With that in mind, answering yes to any of the above questions, which are pretty typical situations, will mean you have the rune ready to go for the next time you hit a champion. The biggest situation I can think of where Last Whisper is much better is when you're 100% out of combat, Conqueror is not ready to go at all, and you must start hitting the tank who stacked armor. There will be a good 3-4 autos worth of time where you could have had armor pen if you had a Last Whisper, but you don't because you took this rune instead. While that situation is not uncommon per se, I think there may be enough ways around it that it can be dealt with/put up with.

Another thing to note is that Last Whisper is only physical damage, obviously. Conqueror is not. That Kai'Sa who just got buffed? When she procs her passive on you with her Q onslaught, it's almost guaranteed 20% of that burst is getting converted to true damage. That Tristana that just jumped you? Again, if she plays her cards right, almost guaranteed that E+Ult is detonating as 20% true damage. That Kog'Maw that landed a single ult, and then pressed his W? Yeah 20% of his hard-to-itemize-against damage is now true damage.

I've heard the argument that "True damage doesn't crit and doesn't proc life steal, so characters that build these will be disincentivized from taking this rune," but this isn't entirely the case. The lifesteal is reduced, sure, but the damage becomes true after the crit. The true damage crits.

It's better on magic damage ADCs like Varus, Kog'maw, Kai'sa. By skipping Last Whisper, you don't have to worry about a slow period where you had to spend 1300g on a Last Whisper. Its effect is certainly less than but still comparable to Press the Attack, an early-mid game 3 hit burst rune, which does not do anything like replace a core item that slows your damage build down.

The one thing I can see that I'm really unsure about is: taking this means it is your keystone (duh). More specifically, this means no Fleet Footwork. The champs that would want to skip Last Whisper are the late gamers who want to scale but had to spend 1300g on that one item that lets them hit tanks. Those also happen to be the same champs that, right now, take Fleet Footwork for the sustain in lane. If this keystone were released with the pre-nerf Fleet, I think there would have been some good competition. But as Fleet is now rightfully toned down, I fear this keystone will be the go-to for scaling ADCs simply because it will let them accelerate their build far more than free boots ever did, by replacing an entire item.

I would love to be told I forgot something, or I'm looking at some math wrong, but I'm not seeing it.


Also: I timed the prep time, it takes ~5.37 seconds to charge up, not 4. This means in terms of pure uptime it has ~36% uptime if you're just constantly hitting a dummy, instead of ~43%. But that probably deserves its own bug report.

Also also: The true damage conversion wears off before the bonus AD does. Because you know. Why not? It's not like these are part of the same buff or anything.

24 Comments

MorganFreemanBot10 votes

It's a 3 second buff with a 4 second 'activation' and ADCs cannot refresh it.

It will absolutely be garbage on them, fear not.

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

Bretay1 votes

I didn't think about Lucian, I just did some math: At level 3 against a 37 armor 30 mr target, with Press the Attack and a secondary that gives AD, building a dorans blade, Lucian will have 82.6 AD and his E>AA>Q>AA>W>AA combo will do 460.9 damage. At that level against that target with those runes and items, but using Conqueror instead, that Lucain would have done 481.9 damage. Assuming Conqueror wears off right then and there (which it wouldn't), the Press Lucian would need 5 extra autos (or an ability and few autos) during Press' extra 3 seconds of damage amp to do more damage than Conqueror did. That's not feasible. Conqueror does more damage level 3 on Lucian than Press, and scales better than Press too.

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

Bretay1 votes

Ha. I don't think 20 extra damage early game is enough to bring lucian back though.

Bretay1 votes

My fear is the 4 second activation can be gotten around by the ways mentioned (wards, minions, towers etc.) and the 3 second window is enough.

Sp33d Zer03 votes

You are wrong don't worry.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

It only lasts for 3 seconds unless you're melee. Only melee attacks refresh the duration. The conversion part kinda confuses me though, because it's converting damage that was first mitigated, into true (unmitigated) dmg.

Bretay1 votes

I tested it in some customs. It takes 20% of your damage before mitigation, deals it as true damage, and then applies mitigation to the non-true damage.

Purgë1 votes

just make it melle only and the problem is solved it was designed for melles in the first place right, adcs dosnt need to stick there butt in everything

Bretay1 votes

That would definitely be the easy way out to ensure it's balanced, but there are also plenty of other options. If it does turn out decent on ranged champs, they could reduce the amount of true damage conversion on ranged champs from 20%.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

If ADCs were within melee range, would that be good? Literally putting yourself in harm's way in exchange for true dmg conversion. Only markmen that really wants that is Graves Urgot . Urgot could use some love

SuperRiceBoi1 votes

{quoted}

just make it melle only and the problem is solved it was designed for melles in the first place right, adcs dosnt need to stick there butt in everything

It doesn't work that way. Everyone has access to any rune, regardless of viability. If I'm playing Vayne and I want Grasp of the Undying, I can run that, but it won't work well.

MadViking1 votes

It definitely makes Garen a god status tank buster.

I don't like the new rune honestly, I think it's going to be one of the strongest runes in the game for ADCs and poke top laners especially who can abuse the hell out of it during lane phase against tanky melee champions.

Bretay1 votes

I hear you when you say you don't like it. I agree there needs to be something done about the keystones, because there are champs like Olaf who simply don't have a really good choice, but I'm not sure if 20% true damage is really the way to go.

And you're right about ranged top laners, I didn't even think about that (since I almost exclusively play bottom lane). Something like Urgot in the top lane would destroy a tank with this rune, and he'd probably destroy the melees it was intended for too.

MadViking1 votes

{quoted}

I hear you when you say you don't like it. I agree there needs to be something done about the keystones, because there are champs like Olaf who simply don't have a really good choice, but I'm not sure if 20% true damage is really the way to go.

And you're right about ranged top laners, I didn't even think about that (since I almost exclusively play bottom lane). Something like Urgot in the top lane would destroy a tank with this rune, and he'd probably destroy the melees it was intended for too.

It's an unhealthy Keystone for top lane, really going to put tanks/melee bruisers in the top lane in a bad spot if ranged pokers abuse the hell out of it, which they will.

When it originally came out on the PBE it was busted AF, they of course toned it down a little bit but it's still broken.

I've played a few ranked games with Garen with this Keystone and I have to say it's extremely strong, especially with Spin.

One champion I can imagine getting out of control with this keystone is Gnar.

SuperRiceBoi1 votes

{quoted}

It's an unhealthy Keystone for top lane, really going to put tanks/melee bruisers in the top lane in a bad spot if ranged pokers abuse the hell out of it, which they will.

When it originally came out on the PBE it was busted AF, they of course toned it down a little bit but it's still broken.

I've played a few ranked games with Garen with this Keystone and I have to say it's extremely strong, especially with Spin.

One champion I can imagine getting out of control with this keystone is Gnar.

Part of why this was released was because top laners complained that top lane is irrelevant and that the only viable option in top was a tank or Gangplank . It will be nice for more variety in the top lane and a meta shift from the long withstanding tank meta in the top lane that's been around for years.

Bazooka Blade1 votes

rumble still doesnt have a rune that fits him

Bretay1 votes

FeelsBadMan. What did rumble usually take last season? Stormraiders?

Bazooka Blade1 votes

{quoted}

FeelsBadMan. What did rumble usually take last season? Stormraiders?

he took deathfire all Rumble spells are over time dmg. even his e is really weak for a poke unless you hit both skills so to put comet on him is almost like suicide some low class rumble players would pick thunderlord an activate it with only q witch is still better then the mess we have now

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

What about Spellbook?

Loco Mot1ves1 votes

Just played a game with Kai'Sa using the new Conquerors keystone and after getting the proc, poke with a W for some hefty damage. If you are close enough to get a Q in as well, it stacks fast. If I can't land a W, just walking into the wave and getting one bolt to hit for that extra true damage is still impactful. I just go into the domination tree to get my lifesteal and sustain on hits against enemy champions.

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