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Bringing attention to the ARAM item oracle's extract.

Absolute Logic··7 votes·3,879 views

Hello everyone,

item 2047

ARAM, in my opinion, is one of the most fun game modes was ever brought to League of Legends. I have been playing it for about 2 years, and I reached the highest hidden ranking "ARAM challenger" in which you get to play with the most disgusting people who create an account and buy only God and S tier champions in ARAM. However, there is one thing all of the high ranking ARAM players would agree on, which is that oracle's extract is a too powerful tool for its price and the buff it brings. It literally sentences certain champions to the universe of uselessness, looking at you Teemo and Shaco. Yes, it is an essential tool to make sure Teemo doesn't build his satanic kingdom and get the game going for 45+ min, but for 300 gold, lasting for 5 min, and pays off its most cost by killing traps. I don't know about the detailed statistics but I would easily call that his win rate drops a minimal of 10% if a single enemy of his bought an oracle. In my opinion, I inherently think oracle's extract need some sort of nerf.

I suggest we use this discussion to bring the best possible biases free modifications on the item to balance it out.

Note: This discussion targets high-ranking ARAM players, preferably 500+ wins.

My suggestion is to add a concept of the number of traps can be destroyed, meaning it can be used to destroy up to x amount of traps then goes off, my number would be 9, about all the traps Teemo can produce in 3 min.

48 Comments

Spoofghoul7 votes

tbh teemo & shaco and the likes would be 30000% tumor with aids infections without that item

Absolute Logic1 votes

but the item would be triple the dose of regular chemotherapy. As said in the thread it is an essential item but it is too strong right now.

Acheron166 votes

Sorry but no.

ARAM literally has no other way to deal with traps. There are no trinkets or plants to reveal them and there's only one lane to control. While in SR you can lockdown a single lane or spread traps across the map as Teemo, you also have other objectives and lanes that you can go to. In ARAM, the only thing you can do if there's a Teemo or Shaco is just follow the minion line, since any side step means you lose half of you HP if you're not a tank.

Not to mention that that thing costs 300gold and occupies an item slot, meaning that if those champions aren't chunking 50% of your HP, they're making you burn gold, meaning that in the end, they still end up winning (unless they are stupid enough to only build for those traps).

Absolute Logic1 votes

I agree with you that traps can be obnoxious for the squishy champions but would disagree that there is no way of dealing with traps, here are three let the tank step on them, get someone shielded and step on them ;), or memorize their places and do not step on them. All of these methods work against traps, but the oracle surgically remove trap issues and stealth champion with only 300 gold (which is not a lot in ARAM and pays more than its price actually by the trap last hit gold, hp cost, and kills denied) also it lasts for a considerably long time. It is like Jax E on steroids against master yi.

BigBellBrute1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but no.

ARAM literally has no other way to deal with traps. There are no trinkets or plants to reveal them and there's only one lane to control. While in SR you can lockdown a single lane or spread traps across the map as Teemo, you also have other objectives and lanes that you can go to. In ARAM, the only thing you can do if there's a Teemo or Shaco is just follow the minion line, since any side step means you lose half of you HP if you're not a tank.

Not to mention that that thing costs 300gold and occupies an item slot, meaning that if those champions aren't chunking 50% of your HP, they're making you burn gold, meaning that in the end, they still end up winning (unless they are stupid enough to only build for those traps).

It does take an item slot if you have one. However, if you buy it and don't have an item slot, it just activates right away. So you can buy one with 6 items in hand.

LadyRenly5 votes

Fuck Shaco, this item needs to exist. Both Teemo and Shaco are obnoxiously oppressive in ARAM. They literally invalidate health shrines for the other team, and with there being one lane, it's nigh impossible to avoid the random traps

Absolute Logic1 votes

The pure hate toward Teemo and Shaco create a biased opinion, just because they are really good in ARAM, completely removing their power is not a reasonable solution.

Eedat3 votes

I reached the highest hidden ranking "ARAM challenger" in which you get to play with the most disgusting people who create an account and buy only God and S tear champions in ARAM.

Can confirm. Top 0.1%

https://euw.whatismymmr.com/Burning%20Coal

Also can confirm item 2047 is stupid OP in ARAM.

Dragfin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Burning Coal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bcV7HOOf,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-14T14:17:31.327+0000)

Hello everyone,

item 2047

ARAM, in my opinion, is one of the most fun game modes was ever brought to League of Legends. I have been playing it for about 2 years, and I reached the highest hidden ranking "ARAM challenger" in which you get to play with the most disgusting people who create an account and buy only God and S tier champions in ARAM. However, there is one thing all of the high ranking ARAM players would agree on, which is that oracle's extract is a too powerful tool for its price and the buff it brings. It literally sentences certain champions to the universe of uselessness, looking at you Teemo and Shaco. Yes, it is an essential tool to make sure Teemo doesn't build his satanic kingdom and get the game going for 45+ min, but for 300 gold, lasting for 5 min, and pays off its most cost by killing traps. I don't know about the detailed statistics but I would easily call that his win rate drops a minimal of 10% if a single enemy of his bought an oracle. In my opinion, I inherently think oracle's extract need some sort of nerf.

I suggest we use this discussion to bring the best possible biases free modifications on the item to balance it out.

Note: This discussion targets high-ranking ARAM players, preferably 500+ wins.

My suggestion is to add a concept of the number of traps can be destroyed, meaning it can be used to destroy up to x amount of traps then goes off, my number would be 9, about all the traps Teemo can produce in 3 min.

It's balanced by how many stupid people don't buy it. It is also balanced by the fact that smart Teemos will stop laying shrooms and throw them into team fights when oracles are bought. Shaco is not a problem when stupid people are not playing. This item is balanced because there are so many stupid people that do play. If you have that many wins in ARAM then you know how to play ARAM with and without this item. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

In my opinion.

Absolute Logic2 votes

You didn't need to quote the whole thread if you just reply I can still see it.

Okay, your point of view is that it is balanced by how many let's say "new and occasional ARAM players" whom don't buy it, but the issue is still maintained if the item is ever bought by even a single player of them. In addition when you play in higher ARAM ranking everyone will consider buying it at the perfect time.

so it is the same concept of almost always excluding bronze to gold in balancing the game because they don't know how to play the game and utilize items and champions potential.

Dragfin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Burning Coal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bcV7HOOf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-04-14T14:39:13.847+0000)

You didn't need to quote the whole thread if you just reply I can still see it.

Okay, your point of view is that it is balanced by how many let's say "new and occasional ARAM players" whom don't buy it, but the issue is still maintained if the item is ever bought by even a single player of them. In addition when you play in higher ARAM ranking everyone will consider buying it at the perfect time.

so it is the same concept of almost always excluding bronze to gold in balancing the game because they don't know how to play the game and utilize items and champions potential.

No my point was you're whining about something irrelevant.

There is nothing wrong with the item.

The game is balanced around team play not one item. Buy a clue.

Absolute Logic1 votes

Although I was unable to extract logic from your whole discussion, I tried to respect your opinion but decided not to after I checked your ARAM ranking.

You are barely in the below average, would say silver V 0 lp in ARAM. Please immediately leave the discussion, your population is not targeted in this discussion please read my note at the end of my thread.

Dragfin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Burning Coal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bcV7HOOf,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-14T15:06:45.341+0000)

Although I was unable to extract logic from your whole discussion, I tried to respect your opinion but decided not to after I checked your ARAM ranking.

You are barely in the below average, would say silver V 0 lp in ARAM. Please immediately leave the discussion, your population is not targeted in this discussion please read my note at the end of my thread.

LOL, little boy you are not special in any way, shape, or form. Get a life. You are not GOD and because someone don't agree with you, you throw a little child tantrum.

Whine and bitch all you want about the item, L2play.

Absolute Logic1 votes

In a discussion, if you see someone start to insult the other party personality, belonging, life, marital and financial status, race, figure, etc, you should know he is very little minded, ignorant, and insecure. You are obviously mad and out of words because your opinion is wrong and was deservedly rejected.

Thankfully I have the option to not proceed the discussion with you. Your comment has been reported and soon will be removed so is your access to this thread.

Dragfin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Burning Coal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bcV7HOOf,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-14T17:47:21.610+0000)

In a discussion, if you see someone start to insult the other party personality, belonging, life, marital and financial status, race, figure, etc, you should know he is very little minded, ignorant, and insecure. You are obviously mad and out of words because your opinion is wrong and was deservedly rejected.

Thankfully I have the option to not proceed the discussion with you. Your comment has been reported and soon will be removed so is your access to this thread.

Yet you continue the discussion? Now I just feel sorry for you.

Opinions are not wrong. I just don't agree with yours and as you made it well known to everyone how arrogant you are are butthurt because I don't agree with you.

Valderis Vandala3 votes

Strong as it may be it's still burning a hole in my wallet and I kinda hate to use it until I get to full build. Then you take it even if you don't have to just for funsies. XD

Too bad we don't see enemy champion "picks" in ARAM, otherwise Riot could make a new summoner spell to deal with traps that maybe mimic red trinket in a way. Or they should do away with the poro snacks (HERESY!!!) and give a new red trinket-like trinket for the ARAM mode. Both of these solutions would offer only limited use which means it doesn't completely shut down the enemies capability. Then again, if everyone uses them we could end up in the same situation only without the cost of elixir. I don't know if there is a real solution.

Maybe ARAM needs its own version of environmental plants that help deal with stealth, that way it doesn't impact on anything you do on your champion (no summoner spell limitations, no gold cost, no item limitations, ect.) but it would offer extra help against stealth without it being too oppressive for the stealth users (since 5 people can't stack their uses). I don't know what it would look like though, can't be something that the enemy team could trigger because then it becomes useless.

Perhaps vision plants that when triggered give full vision of all enemy traps on the map and minimap, plus they get disabled for a few seconds. Maybe a more limited vision plant like on the rift, it just scouts for a short target-able distance to reveal enemy traps. Or mystic shrooms that you trigger to give special trap sight on your character for a minute ala oracle elixir. They would work like the health packs except they are team specific, red team can't use blue teams plants and vice versa to prevent the shutting down of vision, they will start showing up after a certain amount of time and refresh once in a while.

Absolute Logic1 votes

That could be a nice solution for this issue.

Valderis Vandala1 votes

Meh, I'm not so sure. Adding a whole mechanic just to provide some counters to a very small aspect of the game like stealth? Not sure its worth it, or even a solution. But whatever, that's for Riot to figure out. It could turn out to be fun.

I'm also not fond of the idea of showing the champions we're up against, that will probably just lead to more people dodge-ing all the time.

Absolute Logic1 votes

There could be an easier solution with next to no effort to implement, for example, the trinket in twisted treeline item 3348

Valderis Vandala1 votes

Yes, but there is a slight problem with that. If everyone has it then will it become abusive? Or how easy is it to fuck up its use, like more then one person using it at the same time thereby wasting it. I don't know how easy/hard it is to balance such a item on such a linear map.

Plus, you know, we would have to give up Poro Snacks, you monster!! Do you want those poor poro's to starve? It's heresy I tell ya.

EIo PoIice2 votes

Holy shit ! I was thinking of posting the same idea but with more whiny and aggressive tone

I totally agree it is too powerful and would love to see it getting nerfed

1374342 votes

I said it in a thread a few days ago and I'll say it again: Oracles extract should not give vision of traps/champions in a bush if you lack vision inside the bush. It is just giving too much free power by automatically letting you know if the bush is safe or not.

It should work like the old sweeper passive- can only reveal things in bush if already have bush vision. That means you either have to use a vision granting ability or risk it and face check.

Shuyin1783 votes

Honestly traps shouldn't be allowed in bushes in my personal opinion.

On a more topic related note, Oracles only warns you of the traps in the bush, you can't target them unless you are actually in the bush yourself. That doesn't really matter though because dumb people still walk into bushes when the enemy team has champions like Shaco, Caitlyn, Teemo, Jhin, and Nidalee anyways, no matter how many times you warn them not to and ping danger.

KoggyStyle1 votes

so i dont grab oracles until i have redemption for bush vision, got it.

1374341 votes

I mean if you want to waste redemption for that then sure, sounds like a fair trade off to me.

KoggyStyle1 votes

its a waste if my teams not getting theirs......

Teimero1 votes

Orianna ball can give vision in bush like a ward. Corki Q can give vision in bush for a few seconds. Lux E can give sight in bush. Maokai Saplings. Zyra Seedlings and plants. Just examples, but I mean there are a lot more of them

Shuyin1782 votes

Anyone that calls themselves "ARAM Challenger tier" and only buys the best champions for ARAM deserve a hard hit upside the head Negan style. Honestly I hope Riot does go through with the idea of making every champion F2P in ARAM so players like you don't ruin the game mode anymore.

Absolute Logic2 votes

I have all league champions except the new ones, please clean your eyes and read slowly.

In addition, you do not get to play with and against players like them before scoring a high win rate (would say 60%+) over hundreds of games, so you do not have to worry about them ruining the game experience for you.

Anyway it is not the point of our discussion here, we are talking about the item, if you got any ideas or suggestion please post it on.

Shuyin1782 votes

I was talking about your self-proclaimed title and those kind of players. Please clean your eyes and read slowly.

ARAM doesn't have an actual MMR rate because it's an all random mode. Unless you can prove otherwise with factual links, please don't assume you know what you're talking about. I've played ARAM since it was released. I've played with under 30, Bronze, and even a few actual challenger players.

Absolute Logic2 votes

It is a hidden MMR but you can know you hit that ranking by over 15 min queue time and playing with the same pool of players at a certain time. In addition, there are some website that can estimate the MMR with decent accuracy if you play mostly solo.

You obviously didn't clean your eyes and read again. You referred to me that I am proclaiming to be in such ranking and I am ruining the game because I buy only overpowered champion in ARAM. Maybe you did reread but you are too coward to apologize or correct your comment.

I can suggestion some eyedrops if you are considering cleaning your eyes.

Shuyin1781 votes

Again, give proof that MMR ranking in ARAM exists. That means links, not just words. And again, I was talking about your self proclaiming to be a challenger tier player (where you would probably get destroyed by a bronze because ARAM only players tend to be the bottom of the barrel in terms of understanding the game, seeing as your original post is about nerfing an item that doesn't need nerfs in any fashion that can be called a fact and you can quote me) and the the players that only buy ARAM only champions.

As such I have 0 reason to apologize or correct my comment because you don't know how to read.

I think you need better eye drops because yours don't seem to work very well for you friend.

Absolute Logic1 votes

I am pretty sure I made it clear that ARAM has a hidden MMR which means there is no way for a regular player to check it. If you are smart enough to pass primary school you should be able to understand that asking for a concluding proof of someone ranking is very unreasonable.

I can explain that again for you but I cannot make you understand, so I guess I will have to tell you that I have absolutely no reason to proof anything to you or provide you with any sort of proof. Life is not a challenge who embarrass people more, there is no iPhone 7 prize for that buddy :)

You are obviously here to make people look bad and embarrass them not to participate in the discussion, so please immediately leave the discussion and don't show us your face again.

Shuyin1782 votes

ARAM doesn't have a hidden MMR factor, it's all the players all the time. MMR in ARAM would be stupid because it's random chance if you get a good comp or a bad one. Also, nice contradiction you have there :

In addition, there are some website that can estimate the MMR with decent accuracy if you play mostly solo.

I am pretty sure I made it clear that ARAM has a hidden MMR which means there is no way for a regular player to check it.

If you're going to try messing with people, don't screw yourself up first friend. Have a good day with your self-proclaimed "I'm Challenger in ARAM" title, that means about as much as a level 29 saying they're better than every player in the game.

Absolute Logic1 votes

There is no contradiction in anything I posted. you may have missed that I used the word "estimate" or you probably don't know its meaning so please check http://www.dictionary.com/browse/estimate .

It is not a shame to be mistaken but the shame is to insist on the mistake.

Shuyin1782 votes

Yes keep clinging to whatever you can find friend, simple fact is you caused a contradiction which just dropped all credibility to your statement. Websites to estimate are ways to check (not perfect, but still ways) is what you said to me, after you said there was no way to check it. Either there is or there is not, the middle ground does not exist here friend.

It is not a shame to be mistaken but the shame is to insist on the mistake.

You should heed your own words before you give them to others.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

imo as teemo it mainly depends on the enemy team. it stops him from randomly killing people. but you don't throw all your shrooms around, you keep a few for team fights. this is where it becomes a problem. if the team is like 4 poke champs it becomes a hassle because you can't really bait them or ambush them.

as shaco. shit noone in my elo buys oracles against shaco. only teemo cuz memes.

being on teemo's enemy team tho it's a godsend.

Absolute Logic1 votes

It is correct that not all players realize it is the absolute counter to any champions with traps, but what most people on this discussion get is that starting from higher ARAM rankings everyone buys them, sometimes the 5 enemies them but do not activate together, they organize it that they have two actives at a time.

AdeBug1 votes

Where did you see the no of wins? From what I read, that's an old (but neat) feature of the client, no longer available :(

About ur suggestion, what about the no of traps only uncovered? And not destroyed. Either because it died before destroying it, or the other team interrupted you, or the team mate troll stepped into it regardless, just to get you killed. Yes, that happened. For detecting champs in the bush, or while they go invisible, I think it's fine and the price is right. When it comes to consumables, the already existing items don't have a number/limit for any stat but time, so to add that concept in, they might have to turn it into a non-consumable, maybe turn into something after destroying x shrooms, like manamune.

Sry for living the bronze life, I do play a lot of aram, even before I ventured into ranked. And when I face teemo, I don't feel the item is op because I rarely have team mates buying it with me, and even if I have it on, it's glitchy in bushes, maybe due to the skewed view and/or to its radius that can trigger it. I had cases where it was right on the edge of a bush and while trying to walk around it and into the bush, it was triggered way earlier when approached. Also, zoning, hello. And if that bush holds like 3 or more, there's a small chance you or a team mate can safely enter the bush in order to destroy it. When playing AS teemo, however, prolly cus of low elo, I do not feel totally countered by the elixir. It's on a high rate of fun, especially when getting kills while dead, max I think was a triple, but someone got a penta while dead, that's so satisfying. Even if the enemy buys the elixir, like I said in another thread, it takes actual teamwork to have at least 2 players buying it and walking hand in hand to clear an entire width of the lane, and while this sounds like an easy thing to do, it's rarely accomplished, and as a counter I can either meet em half way and poke, or throw another shroom on top of the existing one, or just have any of my 4 other team mates hand out free damage to those trying to clear the lane with the elixir. And at any time I can throw shrooms on top of minions around the enemy, if my team comp has enough range to cover me. Again, while not caring about their elixir. Another usual spot are the the hp relics, doh, low health enemies will still rush for it and step on the shroom, before being detected or fully destroyed, hurting team mates at times.

And as others gave me this statistics crap as an excuse for rampant trolls: it's a 50% chance one of the teams gets a teemo so just use a no teemo/shaco account and buy those elixirs :P He has a pretty high winrate for aram, tho. Again, prolly due to the high number of low elo players in the game. At this low level, games are simply not played around vision, sadly, SR and HA alike.

My question for your suggestion, about the no of uncovered traps, still stands.

Absolute Logic1 votes

Yeah, Teemo and Shaco can be really good in ARAM but the item in even a slightly higher ranking is like Jax E on steroids against Master Yi, zero effort absolute counter. If you are on the EUW I can invite you for some ARAMs to see it by yourself.

regarding the discovered traps but not destroyed for whatever reason, we can make the charge is only consumed when the discovered trap get destroyed.

AdeBug1 votes

Thx for not shittin on me for bein a bronzie :D For some reason on the alt acc I started I'm G5 in Norms. I'm NA but I think I can change to EUW temporarily, or did that only work in WoW... idk. Have to look it up.

Hmmm what about 9 destroyed traps OR 3min to consume it, whichever comes first? For when you can't afford to destroy em without taking free dmg, that way you can still carefully walk around em.

EDIT: found it, it's in the Launch screen or login on the new client, I added u while in NA regardless, now it's a matter of timezone

Absolute Logic1 votes

It is alright mate, we all have an inner bronze inside us ;).

Actually, to change from region to region you must pay some decent amount of RP, which is not worth it. In addition, you will have the suffering of over 150 ms latency, so unless you live in the EU it is not worth it.

9 Destroyed traps or 5 min would be the way to put it, so we can make sure it is not abusable and be fair for the little Teemos.

AdeBug1 votes

Aight, was hoping to spec some high level aram games this weekend, not necessarily play and get totalled :D

Yea, that compromise sounds good to me. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

DoNotHurtMyAnus1 votes

The problem with oracles is it completely shuts down Teemo. I get it everyone hates him. But beside that, it reduce Teemo down to the point where his shroom becomes useless and gives golds. Almost all the games I played, players will be careful once they buy oracles. Caster pokes champion can still poke and use all their skills at no cost. Tank champion can still engage or peel and use all their skills at no cost. Carries marksmen can still fight from a distance and use their skills at no cost. Support can still be supports at no cost. Teemo on the other hands can not be Teemo. He is force to either dive in as a squishy or stay behind with a useless R and a useless passive. He becomes completely useless unless pair with a good comp. Try throwing shrooms at the enemy team as they walk away laughing.

Other stealth characters has been rework to the point where oracles is no longer needed for them. They can be see at a distance regardless. As for Shaco, his box can longer stack so its easy to get away as you simply walk away. Shaco stealth is not so hard to deal with as he often use it as an escape tool. Should Shaco use it to engage he risk dying or getting caught. The same can be said with Talon as well. Talon's ulti will always do damage regardless if oracles is in play or not. Kha has a similar case but he will still has set skills to cover for the stealth loss. Akali on the other suffers greatly from oracles though. But at least Akali still has her passive and Ulti, and her shroud isn't her best skill.

So to cap it up...Teemo now is reduced down to only three abilities. Two actually as his w doesn't actually helps the team. He get to q once, and the rest is simply auto attack to the death or run away useless. There needs to be something better. Like a sweeper with a short cool down said about 20 ish seconds. Or oracles price needs to up, last shorter, and should be lost upon death. Or maybe even lower the vision range to half. Or more creatively, only the one who buys the oracles can see the traps, and the rest of the team can not see at all regardless if the one with the oracles is near the trap.

SimianSasquatch1 votes

I think it should disappear on death so you have to rebuy it or only 1 or 2 people can buy it. I don't like facing teemo or shaco either (love playing shaco though) but that item destroys their entire kit

BigBellBrute1 votes

That item is useless. I avoid traps with it only to have team mates trip them and blow us up anyway.

Teimero1 votes

I say bring back lightbringer item 3185 and sweeper item 3187 to ARAM and drop oracles. Maybe make an AP version as well ofc , drop the permanent passive and put a cd on it like duskblade item 3147 at least then they would need to divert an entire item in their build to counter the one champion on the enemy team making it a question of who or all will build it and have that turn into no one building it, much like some teams with oracles and then Shaco and Teemos can breathe a bit since, it wont be a 300$ item that takes up no slot that everyone at full build will have anyways.

SammyDayspring1 votes

ARAM is too narrow to get rid of Oracles completely. They can shroom and box up the corridor from side to side. They could nerf it so it doesn't last so long.

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