AKF, D/C, and Toxic players.....a suggestion for you Riot

Naidon·Aug 19, 2014·2 votes·1,014 views

I have been playing a long time and feel that nothing is being done about the afk, d/c and toxic players. The so called tribunal has no effect. How about you set up additional servers and place people who are toxic, afk and d/c on it. Making them earn their way off it. At least this way you can keep you customers and make it better for others.

I am no angel but its usually one of the above that cause anything negative I say. I cant stand the current way things are done about the negative impact of these players. If I don't see a change in how bad things are handled I am not sure I will be playing this game during Season 5. far to many other game out there for me to spend my money on.

Truly I hope to see a change. I love watching the pro's play and of course it makes me want to play.

23 Comments

skippersdAug 19, 20142 votes

Let's be honest here for a moment. Most AFKs happen when the score is 24/3 at 20 min mark, yet there are two players who refuse to surrender. Or they have a Jax+Karthus+Kog team against a renekton+AP tristana+Corki, and the former team is winning slightly at 20. In both scenarios AFKing is a mean thing to do, but eff it i get why they do it.

Of course there IS the MID OR AFK guy, or the GIMME BLUE OR AFK, but that is a minority.

DCs are bad luck mostly, and the guy who DCs is just (if not more) annoyed than you are.

And last but not least toxic. Yet again, a wide spectrum of players from stongly worded constructive critisism, (ie: Why did you gone full retard trying to 1v5 as support?!) to truly shining gems (ie: Cancer and the like) Your solution would be a blanket ban.

YET, you forgot to adress the problem of boosted accounts, trolls, and those who are just flat out ignorant of the game (ie: Wrath farming after 50th min ace as a fulll HP adc)

A workable solution would be a "don't match me with this guy" button, so you can tailor the system to your liking (ie: You would not want to play with toxic players, while on the other hand I'm more accepting of a reasonable measure of it, and less tolerant of bad players.) Ofc this would not be a permanent thing, but not playing with the guy who effed my promo series for a few months would seriously ease my mind...

TrinityunicornAug 19, 20141 votes

A workable solution would be a "don't match me with this guy" button, so you can tailor the system to your liking (ie: You would not want to play with toxic players, while on the other hand I'm more accepting of a reasonable measure of it, and less tolerant of bad players.) Ofc this would not be a permanent thing, but not playing with the guy who effed my promo series for a few months would seriously ease my mind...

That sounds like a good solution, is it viable programming wise? It would also slowly weed out the toxicity from your playing experience.

skippersdAug 19, 20141 votes

Programming wise it's trivial, the only real problem is the data size. One of the best solutions would be to store this data in a personal list of player IDs, and even assuming one ID is 16 chars (thus 16 bytes), assuming an average of a thousand long list (15,6 MB) really gets out of hand with a few million players.

TrinityunicornAug 20, 20141 votes

Then its not really viable. :-(

AthenasVendettaAug 19, 20141 votes

I thought that "blocking" a player will not allow you to queue with that individual again?

skippersdAug 20, 20141 votes

No, it only mutes them. (It is possible that it's less likely that you get matched with them, but i met several ppl in que whom i muted previously).

AthenasVendettaAug 23, 20141 votes

No, no. There are two options one is not in game. The one available in game is the mute/ignore "button/option" while the toher that I am referring to is after the game and is called "Block list"

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20141 votes

Ok, here's the thing: Of the toxic players, 75% reform after their first punishment (be it ban or chat restriction). These are players we want in our community. 24% reform after harsher punishments (like 7 or 14-day bans). These are also players we want in our community. 1% of players never reform. We want to permaban them and permaban their smurfs until they stop playing LoL.

What you're suggesting is called a prison's island. It's been suggested before. The problem is, it doesn't work. What ends up happening is that the 99% of toxic players that could reform, never do. Surrounded by toxicity, it's way harder for them to improve their behavior, and they never make it off the island (the server). That's sad, because then when they go to other games, they're still toxic.

The system we have in place, actually works - it's just not clear to you that the player you reported yesterday, got a wave of chat restrictions today.

TrinityunicornAug 19, 20141 votes

I've been reading the Lyte threads and the I'm banned threads lately and I think there needs to be a Why am I banned" FAQ that lists the general reason why people are being banned and what they can do about it. How to get their logs, how to get unbanned, how the reason that they find themselves banned is not due to ONE instance but multiple ones and the parameters or dynamics of what is considered verbal abuse.

What is amazing to me is how toxic they are when the logs are posted yet they claim that they aren't toxic. They clearly do not understand what they are doing I realize some of them are trolling but they seem to focus upon specifc words rather than the usage of communication and therefore cannot understand why when they didn't use the worst words they still get banned.

I think too that the value of being the best needs to include sportsmanship along with being a great player. People seem to be equating climbing the rank ladder with being a better person which they often seem to equate with being a superior person. Can you factor in and announce like a few points for sportsmanship? Like maybe you still have the same effects of point gain or loss but say honor is given to a player there is a 1 point addition. Or at the end of season non reported players get an addition 10 points or whatever may help them in the clinch. Or even a end of season point gained based upon the number of reports. 1-10 gets x, 11-20 gets nothing, etc. I'm pretty dumb here cause I've never played ranked, but maybe someone can get the idea and make something viable.

Just throwing this out cause...........teemo ya know? ;-)

skippersdAug 19, 20141 votes

The problem with all this toxicity related talk is the fact that SoloQ and normals are two really different worlds. In normals, i simle and laugh about the feeding poppy jungle, I myself derp around (and sometimes feed) with Urgot top. I (and mostly everyone else) play for fun, not to win. In ranked, I'm happy if the enemy DCs or laggs, because that's a FREE WIN. I'm angry if my teammate is doing poorly, because I want to WIN. That's why their behavior seem toxic to you, and normal to them.

TrinityunicornAug 20, 20141 votes

i'm a bit confused on what you mean when you say "that's why their behavior seem....." Are you saying if a player is doing poorly then it "seems" like they are toxic <when you know they are not?>

People get mad <normal reaction> when they feel that they are being blocked from what they want. So if a player is having a bad game then it would be an anger inducer if they did poorly to the others on the team who want to win. The anger is energy and best use is to use it to get around what is blocking you from winning. The interraction goes toxic when the energy is used to attack <usually verbally> the teammate.

So what seems to be happening is when someone afk's or d/c's and you are 4 v 5 you experience a huge block to your goal of winning, you have an extreme disadvantage. afk's are used by some players as weapons as much as words are I expect. I'm guessing that in some cases it is used as a retaliation for the anger induced by the toxic words.

in another post you said: " stongly worded constructive critisism, (ie: Why did you gone full retard trying to 1v5 as support?!)"

But that's not really strongly worded or constructive is it? Who's gonna receive that well? "Don't 1v5." would be way more constructive. It may be normal for ranked but the use of the comparison of "full retard" makes it destructive. If the whole team or even that one person continues to berate that player, you will either get a flame war, an afk, or at the least the one being verbally abused will feel horrid after the game. It likely won't increase the chance of winning will it?

skippersdAug 20, 20141 votes

The full retard is reference to this.

And there is the thing. Many ranked games i did stupid plays, and i wrote about myself that "that was retarded" or "I'm an idiot". What i was trying to say is: In ranked, emotions run high, so stronger language is acceptable, or in other words, what would be verbal abuse in a just for fun normal becomes socially accepted in ranked. And yes, the measure line IS what the community accepts as acceptable.

Also, one of the best ways of avoiding toxicity is admitting to your mistakes. A simple "my bad" can stop a shitton of flaming. And to cicle back to my first point, ranked IS a differend world. Some (possibly you included) don't want to play ranked because they are dislike the atmospere the competetive mindset creates. If you feel this way, then we are cool, you don't like ranked, you don't play ranked. Fair enough. But please do not judge an environment you are not familiar with. Just think of Ranked as war. Has anyone ever told a sollder that what he did was BM?

AquaponeyyAug 20, 20141 votes

Nothing excuses bad behavior !!! I dont think you use these kind of things in the real life. People use them because they feel powerfull and safe behind their screen !!! They are just idiots and cowards !!!

TrinityunicornAug 20, 20141 votes

First I'd like to say, you have responded most eloquently and kindly, thank you for that.

Well so I checked out the reference while kinda humorous, its still at someone else's expense. Your self references at self berating something I wouldn't advise making a habit of.

Here's my point, why do you want to stop something that is acceptable <flaming>?? Its just someone's emotions running high right? Since its in the more acceptable realm why avoid it?

Of course I know why you'd want to stop it or avoid it, the question is rhetorical. I just can't figure out why you'd want to keep it, protect it and nurture it.

And yes, I do believe that people have told soldiers that what they did was bad mannered they call it war crimes. Soldiers may have difficulty determining why its okay to kill the enemy but not the civilians and also why civilian can kill the soldiers but they can't fight back w/o repercussions. Or why its okay to kill but not be cruel. And we try not to judge them because "we" did it to them or at least some of us think of it like that. In the end, the soldiers have to come back to society and try to mainstream back in and have problems doing so.

Is it a necessary evil that you have to have in order to play in a competitive environment?

You ask me not to judge the environment that I know very little about, yet from what I've seen the biggest problem is that the people within the environment are judging the other people in the environment and sometimes outside that environment too. At least those that are getting reported seem to be doing an awful lot of that. Terms noob, you suck, you're retarded or worse, autistic, etc. And its usually not true. I just don't think that its ever going to not be reported by a large number of players nor do I think that its healthy for it to continue.

Let me explain....given your full retard example, your I'm retarded or your I'm an idiot. All of those references in some way equate you to having low intelligence which is obviously not the case! The meta message is "you're stupid", which is a judgement and usually a false one and also considered an insulting one. It may be acceptable within the ranked community but its not a wise way to communicate with someone on your team that you want to do/play better. It is a judgement and it is against them. In a lessor way it could be saying you made a dumb mistake, but on the other hand so what, people do it all the time, and no one ever likes their nose rubbed in it.

Lastly what I'm going to say may or may not be true but what it appears as to me is....the people getting into trouble are being reported by those people within the ranked community, their fellow players, who else is in the game with them? Am I wrong on that one?

skippersdAug 21, 20142 votes

I read you comment three times. Still can't decide if i envy your faith in human kindness or not.

Well then, bad mannered, and war crimes. Killing the other solder is a part of war, it is acceptable (even expected) in that scenario. On the other hand, killing an unarmed civilian is a war crime, unacceptable, and shunned not only by the civilians, but the rest of the solders as well. The thing is, the line between them is a bit blurry. Many WW2 veterans can tell you that they justified killing the other solder as the other guy being evil.

My point was, that as in solders in war, players in ranked have a slightly different view of good and bad, acceptable and not. Even the most hardcore player would agree with you that most slurs are unacceptable, but an end game "easy"? While it is the embodiment of being bad mannered, i don't find it ban worthy.

An even better example would be taunting. When I'm doing well, and some of my teammates have a hard time because of jungle interference, i often taunt the enemy jungle into camping my lane, so my teammates can recover. You don't get the enemy jungler to camp your lane by asking him nicely...

About the fact that flaming does not help you: On an intellectual level, everyone sees that. Even the worst flamer does understands that berating his teammate does not increase his chances of winning the game. Sadly, when you are emotionally invested in something (ie: You REALLY want to win that game) most people lack the discipline to stay objective and focused.

That said, if I'm doing well, and my teammate does poorly, and i don't see why he's doing poorly then i'm fustrated. Your thought process says that i should try to be encouraging, and positive, but that is HARD. On the other hand, if i see why he's doing poorly, or just the fact that he KNOWS that he's not doing well helps me to stay content. I'm much more confident with a 0/2 guy on my team who got camped/got outplayed early game because it means he's not a bad player, so later in the game he will be useful.

Anhil: I do not know if you have a driver's license or not, but believe me, if i had such a convinient tool as all-chat in a car, i would have gave some drivers a piece of my mind. Also, there is a noteable difference between the guy who spams 'cancer' or 'die' in all chat and the guy who say that 'why the hell did you dived at lvl1 noob'.

You have somewhat of a point thought, because most players (myself included) do flame when they feel powerless. If someone feeds (intentionally or just ot of ignorance of the game) leaves you with that feeling of defeat. Because let's face it, he won't even get a slap on the wrist for ruining the game. My idea of 'don't match me with this dude' is based on this. I don't care if someone is banned or not, i care for the fact that I don't want to play with him again.

TrinityunicornAug 21, 20142 votes

LOL, well skippersd, its provoking thought anyway right? :-)

You wrote: "Many WW2 veterans can tell you that they justified killing the other solder as the other guy being evil."

All I really have to say about this is, at the end of the day and in their quiet moments of reflection they have to grapple with that they met and killed another human being. A human being that was being a soldier just like them, they in effect met and killed themselves. It creates an internal conflict that they have to live with, and some of them don't make it, some of them struggle the rest of their lives or a good portion of it trying to forgive themselves, some try to medicate it away.

You wrote: " Even the most hardcore player would agree with you that most slurs are unacceptable, but an end game "easy"? While it is the embodiment of being bad mannered, i don't find it ban worthy."

I can agree that if you did that one time, its not ban worthy. However it is also arrogant and an anger producer, a phrase that basically says "you suck or I am better than you at this." That is the meta message of the comment. I'd say its a form of gloating. Now for some people that's going to piss them off enough to report a player when they normally wouldn't have and one report isn't going to hurt you, but if you make a habit out of it <gloating> and then it happens every time, do you think it becomes reportable? Or if there's no harm what if we all adopt it as a way of saying gg? What I'm getting at here is multiplying it to the point to where you can see that it may not be acceptable. And promoting an understanding that it is a form of escalation, adding fuel to the rage fire. Even worse perhaps is that its done not under stress or high emotion but creates a bit more in the recipient to deal with. Its a mild form of verbally spitting on a person after a duel.

Re: "taunting" You are free to do what you want as long as Riot agrees that its okay. I see it as a form of psychological warfare and personally would refrain from using it, but its my personal standard not some rule to be followed. Does it work, oh yes, I'm sure its proven to work. I just prefer to be less covert, its just a part of who I am and what I believe in. I'll just give you an example, lets say this works well on your opponent, but if the tables are turned and say Riot or the government uses a tactic like that, is all still fair in love and war? If the government uses it against the people to say.....get raises for congress, or increase taxes, or start a war by using a distraction, then people end up feeling duped, what is their response?

Verbal abuse being toxic:
You wrote:
"Sadly, when you are emotionally invested in something (ie: You REALLY want to win that game) most people lack the discipline to stay objective and focused."

That's why I think Riot needs to offer some motivation to keep people focused on good sportsmanship, rewards of some sort. Perhaps in the form of league points. ????? What would help you stay motivated and focused on that?

RE: poor performance from a teammate.. You wrote: "Your thought process says that i should try to be encouraging, and positive, but that is HARD. "

Maybe this will help you get clear, imagine that it is someone you care about what would you do for them? Lets say that person in the mid lane performing poorly is your nephew or your little brother or your sister, what would you want to do then? Would it make it easier to do something encouraging and positive?

tldr: in the end its all built into the summoners code and its designed to provide a safe and fun environment to play the game from for all.

I appreciate the thoughts that you've given and the attention that you've given to the topic. Thank you.

skippersdAug 21, 20142 votes

Oh yes, the age old clash of an idealist and a pragmatist. You look at the "easy" comment as bad manner, and look to end it, while i say was it true?

I'm uncertain about Rito, but governments use distractions and fabricated reasons to justify war since ever (ehm. Lusitania, ehm "Polish" sabotage in germany) I'm gonna take a stab at the dark and say that in a century we may learn what "caused" the current wars.

The current honor system works because it has no real "meaning". It is a system that gives out bonuses to those who really deserve it (interestingly enough, you don't really see those banners) without any conseqence. SoloQ was, is, and always shall be about an individual's skill. I have several silver/gold rated players on my friend's list (with me being freshly minted Diamond) whom i just enjoy playing with. Not because they are particulary good, but because they are fun to play with. And in my opinion soloQ is a great way to deflate someone's overbearing ego, because if you are not as good as you think you are, and you don't admit to your mistakes, you will get flamed.

You mentioned necessary evil, and i believe that some toxicity in ranked is necessary. The reason for this is two fold.

While you argue that this makes an opressive envireoment i say this is what makes victory "worth it". When you make the plays under pressure, when more is at stakes than that meaningless number (LP) victory is a truly great feeling. This of course means that when you lose you feel worse, but hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The second reason is the more interesting one. Why is it that Riot only curbes toxicity? They have the tools to eradicate it, but they refuse to do so. The trivial answer is that some of the paying customers ARE toxic, so it's not worth it. Of course this is only the part of the truth, as there are many paying players who are not toxic, but are put off by the toxicity. I believe the reason is peer pressure. If toxicity is gone, feeding, and trolling becomes the main issue, and those are much harder to monitor, let alone punish. Excessive verbal abuse is easy to spot, but was that 0/7 Lee Sin jungle intentionally feeding, playing poorly, or just had the most rotten luck? I have seen all three, and just from stats it's difficult to decide.

I truly believe that once truly potent peer pressure tools are incuded in the game toxicity will drop, simply because players will not feel powerless. In reality, the ideal solution is somewhere between our opinions, as you need both the carrot and the stick to achieve change.

TrinityunicornAug 21, 20141 votes

I AM an idealist. :-) There is nothing in this world that hasn't been thought of, if it hasn't been thought of as an idea imo it doesn't currently exist. Ideas are the foundation of everything.

My point about the government and covertness of the distractions is simply this, what is the effect in the aftermath of the truth surfacing? I believe, anger and outrage may suffice.

I think you meant to say the honor system doesn't work because......and I would agree with you. I have one of those meaningless banners.

The problem I see with Solo Q is that it ONLY sees value in the skill. A player is way more complex than a number and a good/great player according to the summoners code needs to also emcompass sportsmanship. The measure of greatness needs to include some humanity. Somehow, not having that dirtys it or something, for instance, no one will dispute that O.J. Simpson was a great football player, but after all the scandal he's not held so highly esteemed. Its a lame excuse but one that was easy to grab from memory since I saw his name today.

You wrote: " soloQ is a great way to deflate someone's overbearing ego, " I know that its difficult but you can be humble and therefore not need deflation. :-) I've found ego never leads you in the right direction, it usually always hurts if you follow it.

You wrote: "While you argue that this makes an opressive envireoment i say this is what makes victory "worth it". When you make the plays under pressure, when more is at stakes than that meaningless number (LP) victory is a truly great feeling. This of course means that when you lose you feel worse, but hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained."

This can happen even in normals, when its a particularly difficult win or a turn around, it can happen at all levels. It probably looks a heck of a lot better when its high level play, but the feelings I think may be the same, in other words universal. When you gel and you click....AND you struggle/work hard to turn a loss around it is especially sweet.

I am not against the competitive play, but I am against victory at all costs. Its never more important than the people playing the game in my view. People get confused about it. There is a difference between friendly competition and being ruthless, and the divisions are there to keep ruthlessness from getting out of hand too I would suspect. Ruthlesness is probably also why smurfing has such a bad reputation, although it is not bad and there are many examples of it being kind when used correctly.

"Why is it that Riot only curbes toxicity?.....I truly believe that once truly potent peer pressure tools are incuded in the game toxicity will drop, simply because players will not feel powerless."

Well if that is true, then we are on our way to having a better community, because I think they've found the way or at least a good portion of the way towards addressing the verbal abuse part. I personally think that if people cared enough to self govern the way they used their mind and body in relation to others the toxicity would drop dramatically but since there is no motivation for them to do so......it continues. I just hope that there are enough people that think its important and will be examples of it that the rest will just learn by osmosis! :-) <or by example or noticing that hey, this works well>

Well now that we've solved this problem, we can move on to world hunger, poverty.......:-) grins.

Thank you for the discussion, its been a pleasure.

AquaponeyyAug 20, 20141 votes

AFKS, flamers and trolls disagree, not surprising !!!

Watch my post about

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/033KJKQx-riot-guilty-for-the-worst-communauty-i-have-ever-seen?show=flat

See you, enjoy the game and dont forget to have fun: IT'S A GAME !!!

AquaponeyyAug 20, 20141 votes

dont judge if you dont like be judged, dont do bad things to others if you dont like be hurt!

The first rules to live in community! (and my way of life...)

AquaponeyyAug 21, 20141 votes

hey dude! Ty for your comment (sincerly)!

I thought we can not have a real discussion in this forum! i was wrong and i m glad!

ok, first english is not my langage, i don't understand all your points but i got severals (majority) and your global idea. I ll try to answer in the best way (limited by my english sry, i can explain in french but i dont think it would be helpfull xD).

First of all, our comments should be in an other room. Anyway, someone else could be interested by.

I told you "my way of life". It s hard to follow but i try every day. I have my "ego" (i m human) and sometimes it is diificult to silence it. Maybe i am kind, i try to be, but i am not naive.

What i really think: it is better to take care of others instead ourselves: synergistic effect or feedback (if you prefer). i believe that whether people would behave in this kind of way: our world would be better (i m not a hippy, and i didn 't smoke weed before writting this post, xD).

I mean: a lot of people has the following mind: "he hurt me, so i (have the right to) will hurt him), we see the consequences of this kind of mind everyday: war, murder, steal hate etc, etc.

the example of the soldier: soldier is not responsible to take life of an other soldier, this is his job (mission) but his boss(es) is (are) guilty. certain persons think "kill one to save a lot, a necessary sacrifice". If you want my opinion that is a hudge bullshhit! Nobody can judge an other, or have access a life. Words are more powerfull (and better).

i mean when you judge, you place yourself higher ! We are all at the same level except God if you believe Him, only God can judge us. People can not judge in a good way because they don't know the past of the person (what he has thrown), his experiments etc, etc; so we are not able to know what is in people's mind. you can give your opinion (it is yours, so subjective) but not judge.

To come back to LoL, that's why i only report flamers, trollers, and voluntary afk's (ranked or not ranked; allies or enemies even i win ! i dont report "Noobs" (i prefer beginners !), everybody was and has to learn. When i am frustrated, i try to remember to have fun: it's a game. My life is not depending on!

For infomations, i m french, 31 ("yes i play LoL, and i am 31, no i m not virgin", go away flamers, xD) and i have a licence driver.

See you, enjoy the game and don't forget to have fun (IT'S A GAME).

AquaponeyyAug 21, 20141 votes

hey guys! i like you both! i think you are "good guys", and i'd like to see more people as you in LoL!

i think you are both right !!!

So why RIOT do nothing (or not enough) for limiting that toxicity:

SKIPPERSD said

The second reason is the more interesting one. Why is it that Riot only curbes toxicity? They have the tools to eradicate it, but they refuse to do so. The trivial answer is that some of the paying customers ARE toxic, so it's not worth it. Of course this is only the part of the truth, as there are many paying players who are not toxic, but are put off by the toxicity. I believe the reason is peer pressure. If toxicity is gone, feeding, and trolling becomes the main issue, and those are much harder to monitor, let alone punish. Excessive verbal abuse is easy to spot, but was that 0/7 Lee Sin jungle intentionally feeding, playing poorly, or just had the most rotten luck? I have seen all three, and just from stats it's difficult to decide.

We can be paranoÏd (or right, i really dont know) and think that RIOT don t care and want to make money! As you said, people who has "bad behavior" and shows off, buy skins and champions !!!

my mind:

i might be wrong but Riot's politic is: "We are listening your ideas of champion concepts or skins." It s a good thing for both: RIOT (of course) to have "idea well" and community which can express its wishes. So there are RIOT's employees for that.

So why not for critics. I mean : To enhance their game, RIOT could hire specific people to collect critics, discuss about recurring critics (or original points of view) during firm meeting and then answer!

from http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/tFV8BP8n-riot-we-cant-empathize-if-you-dont-communicate?show=flat

First of all, RIOT, you encourage this kind of behavior allowing us to report "beginners". Seriously, its a game, and everybody is "beginner" at Start. Consequence: i m seek to see "noob" every game, really often written by flamers and "beginners" !

and

pls make something !!! but you probably prefer to have money (maybe an offense)! and no an awesome game with a nice communauty (my hope) !!!

from http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/033KJKQx-riot-guilty-for-the-worst-communauty-i-have-ever-seen?show

I appreciate too and i thank you (both) for this interesting discussion!

TrinityunicornAug 21, 20141 votes

Hi Anhil, ty for making the thread.

Riot is doing something and has in the past, the tribunal and now the chat bans while its down. People need to realize that they don't have all the answers they are probably flying by the seat of their pants and trying to follow a mission and a vision of why they came together. They've gotten bigger than that small group that started and the vision may be a bit murky now. Still they do have mission statements about who they are and what they are about. They have tweaked them and they will likely tweak them again. Direction depends upon how much they care about their player base and how much they care about profits. I think as they grow it also becomes a little more murky as proven business practices clash against inspired vision, who will win? It is to be seen. You also have quality vs quantity sorts of things going on as well, I'm sure its not an easy balancing act.

I worked for a company that had a great mission statement, however when you actually went into the actual hands on practice you may see rules and regulations dictating that process to a point where it is barely recognizable. It was frustrating to want to make a difference and even be told you would be only to be slapped with rules, regulations, and a leadership that seemed very focused upon money and profits to a fault. So it kinda felt like it was a cover and people started to get disillusioned with it, then the purpose starts to lose meaning.

I can honestly say that the people that I worked with many of them were very dedicated and caring before they smacked up against the wall of budgets and greed. I've seen them burn out and have burned out myself. Riot appears to not want this to happen but they too have bosses that kind of dictate budgets and such.

What I hope is that the employees still have enough passion and caring to steer in the right direction, which would be in the best interests of all rather than a few or the company only or even only the paying players. Again another balancing act.

I just hope they are and will continue to listen and do it well. They all started as and as far as I know are all still gamers that play the game. They have that much going for them.

Thanks for the link, I'll check the discussion out.

Well not everyone is a beginner, some beginners are very seasoned players <smurfs that have been banned> that kinda ruin things if their ego gets out of hand or they forget what its like to learn to play the game.

You know that saying when in Rome do as the Romans do? Well I think that may have some affects upon new player perceptions along with the higher threshold of tolerance of verbal abuse among ranked players. If what is acceptable in the community changes it will filter back to new players. To be honest, some of the friendlier people that I've met in this game are the new players. When I say friendlier, what I mean is they are more apt to say hello in chat at the beginning of the game and try to spark conversations. I say little in chat and usually only speak up to make them more comfortable if they try to break the ice.

I don't want to set a tone of accusing Riot of unfavorable practices but rather take a wait and see approach to it. I'll occasionally speak up if I think it will do any good. I don't like upsetting apple carts, but sometimes I know that to say nothing isn't the best, I try to do it at an optimal time and strive to do it well so the communication will be received.

Thank you also for some interesting discussion.