What if balancing the game around marksmen getting 5 damage items is the real problem?

Lotus Irelia·Nov 2, 2016·77 votes·4,065 views

And not high burst champs being able to kill glass cannons?

The game is being shifted to give "counter play" but in reality the counter play is there but it is against what is "standard" to do. Most fighters build for the situation which includes both tank and damage items as options. Why should this concept of building for the situation not apply to marksmen to a greater extent?

What happens when marksmen are considered as doing too much damage to do anything about? It might be a long shot for anyone to admit that now but it could in theory easily happen if this path being taken is followed long enough. Removing/reducing play styles that contend with squishy champs fairly easily seems like it could develop it's own issues.

165 Comments

Pierce The VealNov 2, 201649 votes

What happens is you propose to weaken the ranged champions and strengthen the melees across the bord, so there is actually compensation for picking a champion with less range, only to be downvoted to kingdom come.

Now we're working on increasing the period of time it takes to burst people as assassins, aka making them have dps and not burst. Thus, marksmen are going to be dominating season 7 for the most part. Wait... they've been doing that since season 2. It's only been straight nerfs for melee since then.

HazyCloud7Nov 2, 20163 votes

Hmm? I feel like all of the posts complaining about the melee vs ranged discrepancy (in top lane particularly right now) always get upvoted quite a bit. Threads suggesting a buff to dorans shield always end up receiving a lot of positive attention for example (rightfully so)

AstôlfoNov 2, 201624 votes

If an ADC gets caught out by an assassin, they deserve and NEED to be and SHOULD be deleted near instantly. Saying that means there's no counterplay is horseshit. Said ADC shouldn't have been wandering out alone by themselves then.

There also is a chance to avoid most assassins even after said point, it just takes ridiculously fast reflexes and/or extremely good luck, as it should. For instance, immediately Zhonya's-ing when Zed tries to ult you, flashing away instantly the moment Fizz goes into his E animation, immediately dropping a pink the moment Rengar ults (current old Rengar), so on and so forth.

If an ADC dies to an assassin when they weren't with their team, it is 100% their fault and they deserved to die. It's understandable if the team didn't successfully help peel or if the assassin successfully weaved his way through a team, but dying in a 1v1 in less than a second instantly is perfectly normal, and it should have stayed like that.

NineTailedMysticNov 2, 201618 votes

Game Knowledge should not be the only solution to an Assassin. For such a "High Mechanics" based class, they sure are lacking in the opponents ability to mechanically outplay them. The Assassin Update is fixing this by making Assassins still burst very quickly, but making their burst telegraphed. In compensation, when the Assassin correctly sets up his kills he is stronger for it. Current Assassins are dumpstered for the most part because they are not fun to play against. There is no joy in being one shot without time to react, or feeling helpless just because there's an Assassin in the game. The changes will be inherently better than current Assassins after the balancing dust settles.

AstôlfoNov 2, 20166 votes

They themselves are high mechanics. Their opponents are generally not. Their MAIN outplay exists in not making oneself a target in the first place. After that, it's up to the speed of your reflexes, decision, and some luck, as it should be.

Sure, new assassins have a lot more counterplay and look more fun, but they're also generally a lot more trash against their intended targets now, especially lategame.

People complaining that it's not fun should just get over it and deal with it. If they don't like it, they should learn how to play.

AptestNov 2, 20162 votes

especially lategame.

"people" (who play assassins) "forget" that assassins are kinda supposed to fall off late game.

EndlessSorcererNov 2, 201612 votes

Assassins tend to fall off during teamfights.

If they caught a squishy alone in the late-game, they would still horribly murder them.

AptestNov 2, 20161 votes

oh, what's a "Squishiy"?

is it a jax? is it a fiora? is in the morgana or velkoz you laned against mid? naa it's just the ADC and the support. and the support is just there because it lacks damage to fight back he's not really a squishy.

so basically, just the ADC gets to have a bad time. not fair towards ADCs. they get to be the "everybody shits on you if you are alone" class whereas others are not in this situation.

AstôlfoNov 2, 20169 votes

Please refrain from talking when you know nothing.

AptestNov 2, 20161 votes

you are the one who has no knowledge. Educate self. than open mouth.

ADepressedLeonaNov 2, 201612 votes

*Then

AstôlfoNov 2, 20166 votes

Uh no. They don't fall off. They "fall off" against non-retarded players because said players group up which makes an assassination attempt suicide.

Hinagiku33Nov 2, 201625 votes

You know what else isn't fun to play against?

Marksmen that just right-click you to death from range and Mages that stun you and then delete you before the stun even runs out.

You say it "felt bad" when Leblanc and Talon killed you while you were silenced. At least you can still move while silenced. If Veigar stuns you, Lux roots you, or Ahri charms you, then you can't even do that much as they kill you.

What is my counter-play option for Caitlyn right-clicking me from farther away than I can fight back? Why do I even have to let her "outplay" me after I eat her auto-attacks to finally get close enough to jump onto her? She crits me for half my health with targeted damage before I can even fight back and then I have to give her the chance to negate half my burst once I finally reach her?

I'm fine with assassins being mechanically difficult, and I'm fine with allowing for some counterplay, but can we force Marksmen to give us counterplay options too? Or, like, cut their damage in half so every melee champ doesn't need to build half-tank just to function?

NineTailedMysticNov 2, 201610 votes

I agree, ADCs are kinda of obscene right now. But to compare Leblanc and Talon's point and click Silences to skill shots? At least old Veigar had to aim his E.

Big LincolnNov 2, 20168 votes

old Veigar's E might as well have been point and click, you were boosted af if you actually missed it lol

CookyPrinceNov 2, 20162 votes

what champion are you playing tho?

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Game Knowledge should not be the only solution to an Assassin. For such a "High Mechanics" based class, they sure are lacking in the opponents ability to mechanically outplay them. The Assassin Update is fixing this by making Assassins still burst very quickly, but making their burst telegraphed. In compensation, when the Assassin correctly sets up his kills he is stronger for it. Current Assassins are dumpstered for the most part because they are not fun to play against. There is no joy in being one shot without time to react, or feeling helpless just because there's an Assassin in the game. The changes will be inherently better than current Assassins after the balancing dust settles.

But the only way for an assassin to actually get on a squishy to burst him was to play as unpredictably as possible. None of the assassins except leblanc and Rengar one shot people without time to react. Except for Kha'zix and Rengar, the changes to all of the assassins are only nerfs.

TotalJerkNov 2, 20161 votes

I understand the role of assassins, that said catching an isolated target should definitely give you a massive advantage, but the kill shouldn't be borderline free from the moment you decide to capitalize unless you're massively ahead.

AstôlfoNov 2, 20162 votes

Unless the assassin is behind, or the ADC builds defensive items for whatever reason, it should be in the assassin's favor on somewhere 80-90 to 20-10-ish ratio. It's not borderline free, the assassin still has to do their combo well against any competent ADC. If the ADC doesn't like that, well, sucks, too bad for them. It's their fault they got caught out and died in the first place.

Celestial Lion12Nov 2, 20162 votes

getting caught out not leblanc distortioning in to get in range and one shot you with qre

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20163 votes

{quoted}

If an ADC gets caught out by an assassin, they deserve and NEED to be and SHOULD be deleted near instantly. Saying that means there's no counterplay is horseshit. Said ADC shouldn't have been wandering out alone by themselves then.

There also is a chance to avoid most assassins even after said point, it just takes ridiculously fast reflexes and/or extremely good luck, as it should. For instance, immediately Zhonya's-ing when Zed tries to ult you, flashing away instantly the moment Fizz goes into his E animation, immediately dropping a pink the moment Rengar ults (current old Rengar), so on and so forth.

If an ADC dies to an assassin when they weren't with their team, it is 100% their fault and they deserved to die. It's understandable if the team didn't successfully help peel or if the assassin successfully weaved his way through a team, but dying in a 1v1 in less than a second instantly is perfectly normal, and it should have stayed like that.

In seasons 2-4 I would see lonely marksmen splitpushing alone and immediately go after them, with a 90% chance for me to kill them if I caught them.

Now I'm afraid to go after the lonely ADC unless he's very behind or I'm very behind. It's already at the point where they have a significant chance of killing me in a 1v1. That's truly not fair, but now assassins are being further put "in line."

VexingRavenNov 3, 20163 votes

{quoted}

In seasons 2-4 I would see lonely marksmen splitpushing alone and immediately go after them, with a 90% chance for me to kill them if I caught them.

Now I'm afraid to go after the lonely ADC unless he's very behind or I'm very behind. It's already at the point where they have a significant chance of killing me in a 1v1. That's truly not fair, but now assassins are being further put "in line."

Holy shit, so much this. I can't even begin to count how many times just tonight I have "caught" an ADC only for them to just get away scott free or turn around and kill me.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Holy shit, so much this. I can't even begin to count how many times just tonight I have "caught" an ADC only for them to just get away scott free or turn around and kill me.

And it's becoming really annoying tbh. They're being given at leasr a 50% chance of winning after you catch them screwing around or messing up. That's not counterplay.

Blue101Nov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

In seasons 2-4 I would see lonely marksmen splitpushing alone and immediately go after them, with a 90% chance for me to kill them if I caught them.

Now I'm afraid to go after the lonely ADC unless he's very behind or I'm very behind. It's already at the point where they have a significant chance of killing me in a 1v1. That's truly not fair, but now assassins are being further put "in line."

So so much this.

KetiNov 2, 20161 votes

If you don't think melee champions are at all compensated for being melee, Try dueling one as a ranged champion in melee range and see how much stronger they are. And the descrapancy isn't that bad. You just have to play with discipline.

NiceTryViNov 2, 201612 votes

Of course a melee champ is gonna win in melee range, that's the point. The issue is its so hard for a lot of melee champs to actually get in melee range before they are critted so hard they have 3 extra buttholes. When Cait can drop traps for days, which give her obscene range on a guaranteed crit, and use her net, which repositions her and does the same to an enemy it hits, or when Ezreal Q (which applies on-hits, effectivly adding 200% AD if its a Trin or 100% AD and a slow if its IBG) is on a 1 sec cd lategame, or when Lucian can shred your armor with his ult that you HAVE to walk through to get to him and has a dash on ridiculously low cd, or when MF can hit you from behind your wave, chunking you for half your health and her ult, (which is an AOE cone) and does a minimum of 75% AD and 20% AP, can CRIT YOU FOR EACH OF 16 WAVES, not even to mention Jhin who can snipe you from 4 miles away with a 4th shot which, ult or no, IS GUARANTEED TO BE AN EXECUTING CRIT, I would say that ranged champs have a significant advantage.

KetiNov 2, 20161 votes

And none of this matters if a strong melee champ gets a good flank on them. They get eaten alive. The pressure is just on the melee champs to make the plays. On the flip side they have an easier time doing so, since they're often given more tools and can more often afford to end up slightly out of position so they can play more "risky"

AstôlfoNov 2, 20163 votes

And none of that matters because if a ranged player gets flanked on without their knowledge, they deserved it for not having awareness. And if they did get flanked even with wards/etc up, they're bad and they deserved to die.

KetiNov 2, 20162 votes

And they do die. This is how the game works. Teams work to control vision/the map to open up these flanking routes. Even pro teams get wrecked by a good flank, it's the primary strategy really.

AstôlfoNov 2, 20163 votes

Uh, except... literally anyone can flank and achieve the same result? But ADCs can do it at a far longer distance and far faster/stronger?

KetiNov 2, 20163 votes

Yes wonderful, let me know how those Lucian flanks work out.

Off Meta EvanNov 2, 20168 votes

item 2045 item 3363 item 2043 and just the support class in general exists for the reason of making melee champions unable to do that.

KetiNov 2, 20161 votes

Funny how it still can work at all levels of play.

Off Meta EvanNov 2, 20163 votes

yes the lone Jax CAN come out of nowhere and delete the adc, thats totally possible. the issue is that there exists counterplay to that particular strat, and once flanking is removed as a option melee champions have 0 counterplay options themselves outside of being a fed Irelia which... i don't need to explain why thats not a valid solution.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Of course a melee champ is gonna win in melee range, that's the point. The issue is its so hard for a lot of melee champs to actually get in melee range before they are critted so hard they have 3 extra buttholes. When Cait can drop traps for days, which give her obscene range on a guaranteed crit, and use her net, which repositions her and does the same to an enemy it hits, or when Ezreal Q (which applies on-hits, effectivly adding 200% AD if its a Trin or 100% AD and a slow if its IBG) is on a 1 sec cd lategame, or when Lucian can shred your armor with his ult that you HAVE to walk through to get to him and has a dash on ridiculously low cd, or when MF can hit you from behind your wave, chunking you for half your health and her ult, (which is an AOE cone) and does a minimum of 75% AD and 20% AP, can CRIT YOU FOR EACH OF 16 WAVES, not even to mention Jhin who can snipe you from 4 miles away with a 4th shot which, ult or no, IS GUARANTEED TO BE AN EXECUTING CRIT, I would say that ranged champs have a significant advantage.

This guy gets it.

Sona x RubickNov 2, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Try dueling one as a ranged champion in melee range

??????????????????????

the whole point of having range is to deal damage while being miles away.

Nameless VoiceNov 2, 20163 votes

Knowing Riot, their solution will probably be to make more melee champions with ridiculously strong play-negation / deny mechanics to let them deal with their ranged opponents.

In other words, if one class is obnoxious to deal with, then their solution is obviously to make the other side even more obnoxious for the first to deal with.

WoonStruckNov 2, 201638 votes

The problem is that when melees can kill carries because carries too stupid to buy a defensive item, the melees get nerfed.

Then melees can't survive in a 5 damage item marksmen world.

Marksmen SHOULD be forced to go with a defensive item or two that AREN'T offensive items like item 3156 item 3139 item 3053 , etc when melee can kill them. That's supposed to be why items like Frozen Mallet exist.

Yeah, it lowers their damage output...SO FUCKING WHAT. Melees are forced to go 3+ defensive items most of the time because of marksmen being balanced around 5 damage items. That's not even considering the fact that marksmen have loads of options to invalidate those defensive items.

Back in seasons 1 and 2, when they were still hypercarries, ADCs often went Banshee's Veil, or Quicksilver Sash (there was no stupid, broken Mercurial Scimitar back then) and it wasn't seen as an issue.

**Riot gives literally EVERYTHING to ADCs. They don't ever have to give up anything. If they do, Riot makes a new item or nerfs what's causing them to deviate from 5 offensive item builds. **

Its bullshit.

Riot seriously doesn't know how to balance this game. They just act like they do and hope it works out. They've been doing it for the past 6 years.

"Oh, we made X change because Y was unbalanced" and they proceed to leave the game in a more broken state than it was before.

Let's also consider the fact that Riot doesn't feel like tanks should have to peel for their carries anymore. That's another big issue. Carries should not be able to 1v1 anything that gets onto them. That's how ranged vs melee ends up balanced. In any. Other. Game. Otherwise, there's no reason to be a melee even slightly focused on damage.

MrWasjigNov 2, 20169 votes

This is so on point! Can we get more upvotes on this!?

Another issue is that many, MANY tank/defensive that were made exclusively for tanky champs (or designed to be taken by tanky champs) have been repeatedly nerfed, Frozen Heart, Randuin's Omen and Sterak's Gage. All items meant for tanky dudes, all nerfed to hell. Not to the point of worthlessness but hardly the items they once were.

Let's not forget the reason why Sterak's was nerfed...oh right! Because AD Carries were abusing the shit out of it and using it more than it's intended buyers (Juggernauts originally). And you know what? They could have easily avoided having to nerf the item so hard if they just did what countless people suggested, make it fucking melee only! Bit like IBG being problematic, coulda been solved by making it melee only.

Thing is I know exactly what Riot's response would be: "Oh no we couldn't make it melee only, that would restrict build paths and stifle diversity. No no instead, we'll just nerf the item so that everyone can still build it, but it'll be totally subpar everywhere, especially on those who are **supposed **to build it"

Off Meta EvanNov 2, 20163 votes

i don't really like the idea of carries building defensive, or anyone that isn't a tank or fighter for that matter. i feel that carry roles should be forced to play with mostly full damage items and as a result, any and all major mistakes can be punished ruthlessly. tho i agree that riot has balanced the game around this one role and it feels like league of ADCs, featuring every other role.

ProfDrDeathNov 2, 201620 votes

You might be onto something here...

All the way back, before S3, Marksman were actually balanced around going for four offensive items ( item 3072 , item 3046 / item 3078 , item 3031 , item 3035 ) + 1 defensive item ( item 3102 or item 3026 or item 3140 - which had no upgrade back then). There was no real variety in their stuff, but it was rather balanced in the context of that game situation, as tanks also had stronger items (-20% AS aura on 99 Armor Frozen Heart, 20% chance for -35% AS and MS on Randuin's, 920-1370 HP Warmog's)...

Blue101Nov 3, 20162 votes

The game really was in a much healthier place back then. RIP force of nature. RIP true tanks, what we have now are suicidal initiators (it's not the tank's fault it's their items being gutted while ADC items are buffed).

ProfDrDeathNov 3, 20162 votes

I wouldn't say that the game was in a healthier place back then, overall. But the ADC/tank situation and their respective items were, imo, better.

Serika ZeroNov 2, 201615 votes

LoL is in an ADC meta since season1 , anyone that dares to say this and sees the truth is being bashed most of the times

GayFluffyUnicornNov 2, 201611 votes

Because according to ghostcrawler adcs are fun and interesting to watch where as melees are shit and boring and wetnoodle fights and don't need mechanics.

CoperosNov 3, 20161 votes

nah, dopa confirmed this season was the jungle season for carrying.

Serika ZeroNov 3, 20163 votes

You don't get it........ how many games you see without ADCs? Junglering is a position on the map. ADC is a specific class: ranged AD champions that mostly build glass cannon.

Jungler can also be adc (see graves, quinn at the start of the season, twich or kindred). But no Mage ever plays on ADC's role, no assassin does, no tank does, no dps mage does. I don't care "what's the best role for caring", as long as its MANDATORY to have an adc in your team, its an ADC meta.

Brain Errör 404Nov 2, 20163 votes

Have you tried building tanky with marksmen? Not only does it not do anything but keep you alive for a measly extra second, but it also reduces your damage so much that you're more than negligible during a fight. 2 damage items is just not enough for the low bases that adcs have.