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Let's talk about Quinn (and Valor)

Randalla Bard··2 votes·1,389 views

So, ever since Quinn was released, she's always remained to be one of my favorite champions in League. Despite her current state, meta, popularity, balance and attention. With this post, I want to go in more in details what I like and dislike about Quinn, and also some of my personal thought of how I think she could be improved as a whole. Also before I begin, these are simply my general thoughts about Quinn, I'm no balance expert when it comes to numbers and such.

So where to start? Well, what makes Quinn (and Valor)? Whats the feel and lore behind her?: A dynamic duo, tactile, calculated, tracker and scout. Together, Quinn and Valor breach the enemy lines with Valor scouting ahead through the air, while Quinn covers the ground, only to then poke someone's eyes out and pepper them with bolts. She's a Demacian, while Garen spins into the front-line, and Lux shooting rainbows across the map, Quinn is very much the secret agent of Demacia. The two work together and only together.

What makes Quinn and Valor cool and unique?: The first obvious thing would be that they are two, both Quinn and Valor, one on land, the other in the sky. She's armed and dressed for the job (no Morgana battle bikini). She's cocky but careful (great voice actor). Her weapon is a damn machine-crossbow?! (cool weapon). Some form of blinding ability feels really satisfying and thematic "go for the eyes!". Map control through scouting and long distance mobility. Anti-melee or anti-auto attacker. She's part of the Demacia Elite Ranger team. The idea of having a pet at all time to provide cover and support for you, unlike say Tibbers, Malz voidlings, or Bard meeps who are more one time uses.

Now lets get into the many strange and annoying things that does not feel good on this champion: Its obvious that riot designed her to fill the role as an ADC, but her kit is so split that it makes it impossible for her to excel in that role, or any other for that matter. I often feel as though the things she brings to the game, other champions does sooo much better. She's got short range and good amounts of burst, but both Graves and Lucian outshines her easily at that. Nearly all of her abilities just ends up feeling clunky and unrewarding while also putting her into great danger. I mean come one, Valor is a bird, how is it that Quinn has to literary THROW him into someone's face, only to then disappear into a puff of feathers? Her Vault sounds cool on paper, but most of the time it just screws Quinn over and puts her into danger. Her Heightened Senses is alright but far worse compared to Ashe's arrow or Kalista's banshee, and it ends up feeling like a waste of a skill slot, even with the added attack and movement speed passive. Although Harrier has been improved over time since her release, it still feels extremely awkward and lacking. Last and probably the most odd part of Quinn's kit, her ultimate, which turns her into an glorified taxi with a faceplant assassination tool and a hefty cooldown. She's just this weird fighter/assassin/marksman hybrid, none of which she's exceptionally good at.

What could make Quinn and Valor feel better?: Over all I'd like to see Valor have a more noticeable part to Quinn's kit, instead of having to CAST blinding assault, Valor is very much free to act on his own free will without Quinn throwing him around. Perhaps make it something similar to Viktor's laser, where Valor can swoop down in different directions and blind whomever he hits. Hell, remove or reduce the clunky cast animation, let Valor swoop down while Quinn is moving around the battlefield. As for Heightened Senses, instead of Valor only opening his eyes every 40-50 second (not sure where he's at when W is on cooldown), make it so that Quinn passively get increased line of sight, or so that she can see through nearby brushes. A good example of something that I really liked recently was the Ocklepods from Black Market Brawl. Have Valor help Quinn out with frequent map scouting, blinding people with "fire support" while Quinn positions herself to move in/or escape. Harrier is cool, but its another skill that just ends up feeling clunky and unrewarding. It doesn't necessarily have to deal bonus damage, though I have nothing against that. Instead when executed, it could give Quinn a burst of movement speed, or attack speed, or increased crit, or % health damage, or armor pen, or instead of marking someone for Quinn, let Quinn mark creeps or champions with her auto attack, letting Valor come down to strike the target. I really like Vault, it feels really satisfying to kick someone in the face and then pepper them with bolts, but it feels unreliable and unrewarding. I'd much rather have her get an entire new ult, instead of swapping places, perhaps let Valor fly out to track down the closest enemies with low health, like a homing missile. When and IF he reaches his target, he could deal damage or slow the target so that Quinn can catch up, maybe even make it so that you can re-activate R to have Quinn come flying down with Skystrike. This of course would briefly disable Quinn from having Valor's help while he is chasing down his enemy. Bottom line is, give Quinn and Valor a more defined role, either as an full-on Marksman, or short ranged, fighter-style top laner.

I've made up my own little Quinn rework, mostly as a form of suggestions and less so for balance purposes.

Passive: Harrier - Reworked into - Valor While not doing anything else, Valor will passively fly around within Quinn's line of sight:

Providing extra vision above terrain and brushes, as well as increasing her line of sight slightly.

Valor will also occasionally mark nearby champions within this radius as vulnerable.

Quinn's next attack against a marked targets will deal bonus physical damage, ignoring a % of the targets armor.

Q: Blinding Assault

Click and drag skill shot (similar to Viktor's laser)

Active: After a brief delay, Valor swoops down in a line, slashing all units and dealing physical damage. Valor also latches onto the first enemy champion he hits, briefly blinding and damaging the target for the duration.

Although this spell has a brief delay, it has no cast time, meaning that Quinn can move and attack freely during the cast.

W: Heightened Senses

Active: Valor circles around Quinn in a larger radius, further increasing her passive line of sight. Granting Quinn a drastic movement speed buff for every spotted champion, and also marking them. This does not effect enemy champions that is already visible.

Passive: Attacking marked targets also increases Quinn's attack and movement speed for a short duration.

E: Vault - Reworked into - Covering Fire

Active: Quinn fires a volley of bolts in target direction, dealing physical damage and slowing the first targets that she hits. After which Valor then dives directly down, marking any champions within the same radius of which Quinn previously damaged.

R: Tag Team - Reworked into - Flush 'Em out!

Active: Valor seeks out the closest and/or most wounded enemy champion, marking and slowing if he reaches his target.

This ability has a massive range that increases with level.

The slow and mark duration is increased the further away the target is from Quinn.

While Valor is traveling, Quinn is granted a massive movement speed boost for the duration that he travels, plus the duration of the mark. However, Quinn loses all of her abilities for the duration that Valor is traveling (currently marked champions will remain marked).

If in danger, Quinn can re-activate her ult by pressing R. Which quickly calls Valor back to her side.

Demacia needs heroes... Quinn

6 Comments

LilXaine2 votes

Thanks for taking the time to think and type all this out, warms my heart to see someone caring about Quinn and her mess of an kit. As you said she was intended on release to be an ADC, taken bot lane and coddled. I've only had much real success BOT vs Vayne Ezreal and Ashe pre-rework. As people played her though they realized that with the short AA range, a slow moving/casted skill shot, and her two other abilities (including her ult) throwing her into the heart of danger perhaps another role would work better.

Not MID, she can hold her own but practically all mages can out range her (although she doesn't mind the chance to face off against Talon !) Not Jungle, she can clear and gank well but not safely or efficiently enough. And so she was banished to Top Lane, set to go toe-to-toe against the likes of Riven , Garen , Vladimir , Renekton , and Rumble . In the days when a Top Lane Shen or XinZhao could carry his team Quinn was there. However the the landscape of Top Lane has changed very much since S3 with new champs, items and reworks, not to mention the updated Summoners Rift. Yet the only thing that's been touched on Quinn are tweaks to her E - Vault. And honestly...I'm kinda OK with that. Like I said, so many things have changed top lane and though she's very much the same as she was on release she hasn't lost much of her effectiveness. I love her as a niche counter to most Top Laners, like Kennen, breathing life into a stale TP Top Lane meta.

I love Quinn and as wonky as her kit is that's why I love her. She's an ADC that needs no support, she can fill any role. No she won't be the best pick because other champs are more specialized and perform these rolls better but she has the tools to fend for herself and contribute to the team. A rework would be awesome to keep her in line not only with the other ADC's, who are constantly getting looked at and how they affect the game, but also her competition Top Lane. SO many champs have come out and been reworked since Quinn's release, she needs to be brought up to speed. All that being said I love and agree with most of your changes, I've always felt Valor didn't have much of an impact throughout the game.

Passive: Harrier - Reworked into - Valor The added vision range is a cool idea, cementing her as a safe and aware scout. The vision into bushes would have a range similiar to Evelynn 's stealth I assume? Love %ArP! "While not doing anything" is important, would that include Q?

Q: Blinding Assault Best.Thing.Suggested. I detest how slow and clunky this move is, and how awkward it works. Valor is a smart bird yet we need to throw him in a straight line from ourselves into the first enemy his fat wings hit? No thanks. If it worked like Viktor's laser with no cast time...oh baby. You mention the blind would work by Valor latching on to the 1st enemy champ, does this infer that the spell could not only hit champs hiding behind minions but also only hit the champ and not the minions if their positions were reversed?

**W: Heightened Senses ** Same feelings I had about the passive. By "further increasing her passive line of sight" do you mean to say it would no longer reveal the entire area? For example : You're standing in the blue jungle above dragon. Would this new W show whats down in the pit or only extend the range of your vision to bot and mid lane?

E & R Here's where I disagree, but hey these things need to talked about and thrown around. For E it seems like you're taking her one disengage, something most ADC's need and want, and replacing it with a rooted cast that combines Lucian 's Ult with Jinx 's ZAP! I could like it on another champ but I don't see it fitting Quinn, at least the Quinn as she exists now. If the goal is to turn her into the true Bot lane ADC she was meant to be I do actually think this could work for her, however that would kill any hopes she had going anywhere else. With the blind vs monsters removed she couldn't jungle and without Vault she would be like Jinx trying to go top but worse. As for the Ult...it seems really limiting. This reworked Ult can only hunt down weakened enemies that trying to escape so you can catch them and shoot them. Just like her Ult now. But this would make it useless in any other situation, no more clutch escapes or lightning quick flanks. I can imagine that your first attack would deal some bonus dmg but I feel the versatility of her current ult is too great to lose even if its not in line with what most ADCs want.

Basically yes, she deserves a rework. However I'd hate to see the role she's held for 2yrs become obsolete just so she can shoot it up bot lane with other shooters. She isn't an Urgot or tanky Ekko. Not pre-rework Ashe or ap Sion either. I feel Quinn is fine where she is and it would be neat if she had more of a chance bot but if I had to choose between the two I'd stick with top.

"I live behind enemy lines." Quinn

Side Note Please Riot add Champion icons for transformed versions of champions like they exist ingame!

Randalla Bard1 votes

I pretty much agree with you all around. I myself pretty much only pick her as a niche top lane pick. She's very much like Vayne in one vs one situations where she has so many tools to deal with her opponents. The more I think about it, the more I feel as though Quinn fits better on top lane, both thematically and for her kit. Its good to see that I'm not alone with my love for this champion.

As for your confusion about my rework suggestions. For her passive, basically every time Valor is actively doing something else, like Q: Blinding Assault or scouting with W: Heightened Senses or any of her other abilities. Quinn loses the bonus vision that Valor provides passively. This would give people small windows to make their moves. Vision can be a very powerful tool, but with the extra mobility from E: Vault and R: Tag Team gone, I figured extra vision would make up for that.

My thoughts around Q was that Valor deals damage to all minions he passes through, perhaps for reduced damage or something. IF he hits a champion along the way, he deals more damage, along with the usual blind. But yes, you're correct, champions could technically block Quinn from clearing creep waves.

Her W: Heightened Senses works pretty similar to her old one, in which you activate it for a short burst of vision around Quinn. Only that it simply increases her passive line of sight that Valor provides significantly. Either by circling once above Quinn in one quick motion, while also following her movement, sorta scanning the area. Or taking a couple of smaller laps around but in a much smaller pace. Its kinda hard to explain but think Kalista's Sentinels. Only that with Valor circling around Quinn in a fixed radius and with much greater vision.

As for E & R I honestly had a hard time thinking of what would make Quinn feel better. E: Vault looks super cool, but it brings so little for whats its worth. Sure every now and then you manage to flip over a wall or interrupt Malz's ult with it, which feels pretty damn awesome! But most of the time its just another way for you to add another mark onto your target. Which doesn't really deals a whole lot of damage. Also I won't even bother bringing up the countless times I've managed to Vault the wrong way for whatever reason, only to flip into the enemy team...

With the new E: Covering Fire, I kinda wanted to stay with the same concept as Vault, but without putting Quinn into so much danger. A tool for her to pull off that sweet "double mark" combo. Note that this ability would also be able to be cast while moving, like you said, almost like an mini Lucian ult. This however ONLY hits the first target, creeps or champions. Giving player an easier time to dodge and respond to some of her burst. I agree that with the extra mobility from E: Vault gone may certainly sound off-putting, most of her safety and mobility will instead come from the added vision and burst of speed from marked targets. But hey, perhaps Riot could do something similar to what they did to Fiora's Q, make E: Vault into an skill shot instead?

Same could be said about R: Tag Team, super cool ability, but on the completely wrong champion. The last thing you want to do is go melee as an ADC, leave the diving to Yi. But at the same time, some kind of tool to chase down and finish your opponent feels right on Quinn, I just don't really know what.

LilXaine1 votes

Changing the **E ** in that way would eliminated her viability as a duelist. **Vault ** is a much more versatile tool than simply a passive re-setter. It's one of the reasons she can assassinate enemy ADC's so well, ult in Vault and right before hitting ult again to kick off and line up a free Q for pewpew. When Fiora lunges at you or Darius pulls you in a slow you can cast while moving wont be enough to make a difference. When Shen or <list your Top Laner> goes to tp bot for drag they won't care that you did some burst dmg.

While reworking her to fit her intended archetype would be interesting all I really want is a solid update. She's been out for awhile and people play her a fair amount but its hard to keep up with all the new gimmicks and jankyness newer champs bring to the table.

Randalla Bard1 votes

I agree that one of her most noticeable strengths is her ability to one on one, and also deal with pretty much any top laner. Same goes for going one vs one with the enemy ADC, she can burst down pretty much anyone with her let.

I think the problem is that her roles are all over that place. She is ranged, pretty squishy and awful range, like most ADC. But her kit revolves around solo play and dueling other top laners, so you kinda want to put her top. Then her ult transforms her into an super squishy assassin with 0 survival.

She certainly has a lot of strong sides, along with many flaws. Which I think is why so many other champions simply outshine her in all of those roles. Sometimes I feel like she's like Teemo, sure he can stomp any top laner or go some kind of weird AP build. But when it comes to team fights and proper team comps, he doesn't do shit!

A rework or some kind of update, be it big or small, is in order for Quinn.

Rebonack1 votes

The big problem with Quinn is that her Vault just totally invalidates most melee champions, it's an incredibly potent self-peel tool. The central question to be asked when remaking Quinn is 'how do we make her strong without making her even more awful for melee champs to play against than Kalista?'

Randalla Bard1 votes

Shhhh, let us not speak of that vengeful woman!

Yeah Vault makes it so that she can win against pretty much any melee champ on top lane. But on the other hand, Vault is pretty much useless on bot lane. Every now and then you can pull of a neat little damage combo, take it you manage to land your super-wide Q, into harrier, into vault, and into harrier again. Without the enemy ADC or support not responding to your attack, not to mention that it puts Quinn into a super vulnerable state. You could just take Graves or any other bursty ADC and get the work done much easier and safer.

But even if you're ahead as top lane Quinn, you're still another squishy ADC champion. She doesn't bring any CC or the tankiness of other fighters or tanks that you usually see on top. And she doesn't have the same reliable assassination or damage output either due to her poor range and scalings.

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