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Kassadin Fix Discussion - Comments desired

MrTBurr··1 votes·453 views

I posted a comment on one of the other Kassadin pages (I'll link it later) but I won't go into detail here. I don't wish to discuss why or how Kass' legs were broken as it is already discussed and quite apparent. The meaning of this thread I hope to be Kass mains debating how to 'fix' the current issues that Riot has with him in hopes that a proper and sound fix can be made and catch their attention. As briefly discussed in my comment previous I would like to propose giving Kassadin an item specific to himself that would fix the issue. We are all aware but I will point out once more: Kass has a weak early game, is not the strongest laner, has had his damage nerfed (especially compared to other laners and champs currently) and is meant by his core to be a highly mobile roaming assassin and anti-mage. Now Kass still has his passive which is useful but has lost one of his other core values with this patch dropping his rift range from 700 to 450 without high damage burst or his silence any longer. This is my proposal and I would like to use this thread to hear other options from mid-laners and Kass players alike:

"Void Scepter/Rifting core" Can be purchased by Kassadin upon reaching level 6 Gold cost: xxxx (1500ish?)

  • Grants 60 ability power
  • Grants 200 mana
  • Once every 3 seconds any ability used by Kassadin grants 1 charge. Each ability used on an enemy champion grants 2 stacks. Each Riftwalk used grants 3 stacks.
  • At xxx (150ish?) stacks Kassadin may purchase the upgrade to this item (Void Master's Scepter/Rift Stabilizer)

"Void Master's Scepter/Rift Stabilizer" Upgraded version of previous item. Gold cost: xxxx (1500ish?) *Once at full stacks

  • Grants 70 ability power
  • Grants 450 mana
  • Increases Kassadin's Riftwalk to a maximum of 700 units from the normal 400 units.
  • *Optional decrease in mana gained and instead CDR up to 20%.

I think that something like this would both cause many Kass players to change their build, force more gold into their build and would allow Kass to be opened up late game into his more natural play. This keeps my favored champion close to his core values but also causes players to work for both getting gold for the item and also the stacks thereafter before late game ensues. Obviously this is just a rough idea but I would like to hear feedback from the community and hear any other possible fixes that Riot would hopefully take into account. Thanks for the feedback everyone, I'll try to respond and have open discussion!

P.S. I would like to note that if you think this is a good idea or have any changes that could be made to balance it more then I would ask that you leave a comment! Kassadin My comment below will have my previous comment from Shinjusuke's post.

P.S.S. Bulleted lists don't seem to be working for me to properly format the items, sorry.

11 Comments

thinking man1 votes

Give him the ult range then gut his Q because his Q is the real cancer ability.

MrTBurr1 votes

How so? His 'Q' was already addressed by removing the silence effect and by lowering its flat scaling and ap scaling quite harshly a few patches ago. Just wondering why you think his 'Q' is broken.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

How so? His 'Q' was already addressed by removing the silence effect and by lowering its flat scaling and ap scaling quite harshly a few patches ago. Just wondering why you think his 'Q' is broken.

It's oppressive in lane since you don't lose to mages by spamming it on them and then it's just a big chunk of meaningless damage late-game.

Boring ability, extremely powerful, little drawback and little risk to using it.

I facerolled so many mage matchups by spamming it.

MrTBurr1 votes

Early game it is still light in damage compared to most all other mage's abilities. I understand the spammability of it but it is often not mana beneficial to do so. At the same time I feel that many other mid-laners have either longer poke (evenly non-skillshots) and deal equivalent damage or effect. Looking into changing his 'Q' entirely means once again looking into the core of the champion. What change to it would you recommend?

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Early game it is still light in damage compared to most all other mage's abilities. I understand the spammability of it but it is often not mana beneficial to do so. At the same time I feel that many other mid-laners have either longer poke (evenly non-skillshots) and deal equivalent damage or effect. Looking into changing his 'Q' entirely means once again looking into the core of the champion. What change to it would you recommend?

Make it a zero damage shield/silence because silence goes with the void theme and a shield is a healthy replacement for damage.

I have a whole rework written out for him where they essentially give him a toned down version of the S3 kit with the Q I described above and a buffed W for sustained damage. He'd be a bruiser instead and wouldn't oppress mages as hard since removing the damage from his Q is a nerf to his pre-six and general ability to bully lane.

MrTBurr1 votes

I actually like this idea. I would like to have at least some damage even it is flat and non-scaling or very low, as his 'e' requires charging. I do like Kass staying as an assassin due to his mobility but the silence and void pair up does make sense. I would still be interested in playing him if this was the case although I would prefer a low damage+silence as opposed to keeping the shield to once again make him more of an assassin still. At the same time I think Riot is trying to steer away from silences with the removal of his and change to his interrupt. It seems like it would be an interesting and still likable change that you propose and if the 'w' was well buffed with his natural rift range then all should work well.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

I actually like this idea. I would like to have at least some damage even it is flat and non-scaling or very low, as his 'e' requires charging. I do like Kass staying as an assassin due to his mobility but the silence and void pair up does make sense. I would still be interested in playing him if this was the case although I would prefer a low damage+silence as opposed to keeping the shield to once again make him more of an assassin still. At the same time I think Riot is trying to steer away from silences with the removal of his and change to his interrupt. It seems like it would be an interesting and still likable change that you propose and if the 'w' was well buffed with his natural rift range then all should work well.

An assassin Kassadin won't work in this game, and an assassin with a silence won't work either.

Kassadin will be toxic if he's an assassin; assassins will be complete cancer if they have a silence.

He'd need his burst greatly nerfed so that he'd be more about going in for short moments at opportunities for sustained damage and then ducking out. Ideally, he'd be a better sustained fighter than he is now while not being as good as something like Irelia so he has to duck and weave in and out.

MrTBurr1 votes
  • My incredibly long comment on the previous Kassadin post - easier than hunting it down if you care to read the entirety. Albeit typed at 4am or so, it is a bit segmented. Thanks again to Shinjusuke and I recommend viewing his post as well.

As a primary Kassadin player and mid-laner I have found my way to the forum for the first time ever despite playing for years. I was saddened and sickened by the first Kassadin nerf but eventually came around to playing him once more and enjoying my favorite champion although I never spoke out against it. This however hits the nail on the head for me. Kassadin is meant to be a highly mobile assassin style champion that still vaguely carries about the traits of being an "anti-mage" in thanks to his still current passive. I think that with the increased cost tacked to his rifts in the patches previous Kass has worked well on a fundamental level. For instance: Crappy early game, not entirely superior mid level laning phase (Despite his ability to roam and solid kill potential, he often needs a helping hand after his last nerf) and his normal build path often contains highly priced items that require time and effort to gain. Due to the rising cost of Kass' ultimate I often build a number of mana regen and mana items so that I can fully benefit from what his core is, mobility. Now look at this, Kass is now unable to burst/follow/escape far more mobile champions than himself. After his first nerf cutting his power base a significant amount this nerf now breaks his knees once more, quite literally in that he can only 'rift-crawl' himself across the map in hopes of landing a 'e'-'w' so that he might have mana for another short rift to catch his fleeing opponent. If Kass is now given his 'W' to rely on for gaining mana to some extent then why make it nearly impossible for him (especially in lane) to rift onto someone (note the range is so short now that they will likely move away or bully you before you can get into range to rift onto them dealing the rift walk damage) to regain the mana boom from it. Imagine trying to rift after a mobile champion who also is able to clear walls, if you are lucky you will get your slow off on them and rift a few times more before either your high (now reduced a portion) mana cost or inability to catch the target due to rift distances cuts you short. Not only will you find yourself unable to burst them and unable to catch them but also likely unable to find any form of escape should they turn on you. As a Kass main I fully understand positioning and picking the right targets as I have mained Kass since Season 2 and gave him some play in season one as well. I hope that this is taken well by the community and by anyone who passes over it from Riot especially. Now I don't only post this to gripe although I felt the need to come here and voice my opinion finally and stumbled across this already well voiced article so felt posting here would be adequate; Here is a fix I would ask of: Instead of the current nerf why not look into what has been done for champions such as Rengar and Viktor... You say you want to keep Kass' unique ability and yet keep him balanced. This is my fix that admittedly as a Kass main is not as enjoyable as simply un-nerfing him yet still pays respect to allow me to play Kass as I feel he is meant to be played and a viable pick. Give Kassadin an item, for instance "Void Scepter: Grants a flat amount of AP, takes up an item slot and is optional or a trinket slot depending on the way it is used. This item much like tear has to be charged by void power in order to allow Kassadin his maximum rifting abilities. For instance: Flat AP bonus, after level 6 is obtained much like tear the item begins charging on ability casts, set a number that would unlock an upgrade for the item (more gold cost in his build path) that then allows him to rift at his previous range and grants him a flat mana or mana regen bonus, but nothing severe as it would be a Kass only item and allow him to rift the previous 700 range instead of the now nerfed 450. This means his late game will remain strong and as pointed out in the post above many champions such as leblanc are able to do the same as Kass' rift walk previous and even better so... It is frustrating to see my favorite champion having his knees broken once again (in before qq) but in all seriousness there seems to be some sort of issue here. I feel after his last nerf that there is now plenty of counter-play in itemization and positioning and a variety of champions that have enough mobility with aid of their team to establish themselves in a safe zone and forcing Kass to both be an assassin but with the need to select proper targets. I hope that the few who suffer through reading this will have feedback and that some of the community will agree with me on this. I have a good deal of problems with certain champion balancing but I make no mention of it, I simply want Kass (biased I realize) to be a playable and acceptable champion who can do what he was made to do.

TL;DR: Kass nerf broke his legs, Potential fix is adding an item that would grow like tear to allow riftwalk to full 700 potential and is not a forced purchase.

If anyone is up for discussing this in replies below I am happy to discuss things and will try to check back tomorrow. Viewpoints/fixes etc. Thank you Shinjusuke and fellow Kass players/community as a whole.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

-snip-

The problem is that said item will be mandatory since it is so powerful to get that range back.

If you make it stat efficient at all, which it sounds like you are, then it's not going to work as an item. It'd have to be terribly inefficient to be balanced and that require fine tuning.

I'd say it's easier to just give him his ult back and nerf his damage - he still feels playable with his ult and while he's definitely strong with his gimped range, it just doesn't feel good to play at all.

MrTBurr1 votes

Thanks for all the feedback. I would agree entirely that I prefer going back to the Kassadin directly before this patch, however, Riot seems to disagree with that version. The item is just an example to what could be done as has been done for Viktor and Rengar in a sort and could be fine tuned by Riot to fit in with the standards. My objective is to bring Kassadin in some way back to his core and the fun of the champion itself and yet make him have to work a bit more for it and reward him later; In hopes that Riot would take such an idea into account instead of simply killing off his 'R' and breaking his knees once more. To further combat his 'Q' spammability, perhaps it could be taken to add some range to it but force it to be a skill shot(?). Much like Veigar's change this patch it would at least add another layer of depth and increase the skill cap a degree.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for all the feedback. I would agree entirely that I prefer going back to the Kassadin directly before this patch, however, Riot seems to disagree with that version. The item is just an example to what could be done as has been done for Viktor and Rengar in a sort and could be fine tuned by Riot to fit in with the standards. My objective is to bring Kassadin in some way back to his core and the fun of the champion itself and yet make him have to work a bit more for it and reward him later; In hopes that Riot would take such an idea into account instead of simply killing off his 'R' and breaking his knees once more.

Nerfing his Q works for this since he doesn't have such a cheesy early-game (never underestimate Q spam with a flask/W to sustain it) and he can't farm from ranged so he's going to be a worse fighter in general early on while probably being better later as far as tankiness and just ability to fight.

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