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Vel rework is GARBAGE. RIOT plz fix.

HolyAvenger666·May 10, 2016·3 votes·1,331 views

Honestly Vel'Koz needs a hotfix BAD. He is not a viable mage like he was prepatch. For all the kool-aide drinkers saying he was generally untouched, thats a crock of crap. The damage on his passive, w, and e are all down. To make matters worse the so called "buff" on his ultimate ONLY APPLIES IF U LAND 3 STACKS OF THE PASSIVE. It would be one thing if his ult applied passive stacks, but it doesnt even do that. SO now instead of being able to provide good aoe damage in team fights, you now need to land a E,W combo BEFORE the "buff" is applicable. In lane, the lack of damage from ur basic abilities and passive makes vel LACKLUSTER even if you land your E,W combo. And lets be honest RIOT, hitting a combo with vel is NOT EASY. So the fact that you blatantly reduced his damage on all his abilities but said "gee whiz, hes got a buff on his ult" is garbage. Its just a slight of hand nerf that people who have no clue how Vel actually works are blind to. Honestly, if you want to reward players for landing combos on him, INCREASE THE DAMAGE ON HIS PASSIVE, and HAVE HIS ULT APPLY PASSIVE STACKS ( without procing the passive damage ) UNTIL IT BECOMES RESEARCHED THEN APPLY TRUE DAMAGE. This will reward players who can land his wombo, and still give him good engage with his ult in team fights if for whatever reason he cant combo the entire team first ( which is impossible anyway ).

Also for reference, his passive only becomes viable with 100+ ability power. This means early game his damage output is VERY LOW compared to how he used to be. Vel is very squishy and has not so good early game lane sustain. Reducing his early game damage with the nerfs makes it much more difficult to poke.

22 Comments

Reaper ReviewMay 10, 20163 votes

His passive literally lost 2 damage per level, but now has a 40% AP ratio. You literally only need five AP per level to compensate for that loss. Five. (Fun fact: This also means that starting Doran's Ring makes his passive do more damage at levels 1 and 2, and be equal at level 3. For what that's worth.)

Q's damage wasn't changed at all. In fact, his Q got two buffs, the mana restore and enemies not seeing the target indicator.

His W and E lost about a combined 40% AP ratio between them (their base damages weren't changed at all). That AP scaling didn't just vanish, though, it went into his passive. Basically, his W poke lost a bit of damage, but passive procs more than make up for the lost damage (since the passive is true damage).

The R change is subjective, but I will say that his ult's damage on its own is actually higher than before. Each tick of the laser now scales with 10% AP instead of 6%, and the base damage was buffed at ranks 2 and 3. It also got a lower cooldown on top of that. You lose the ability to proc your passive damage with it, but considering they added a 40% AP ratio to said passive...

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Review,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZMnBjPQE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-10T19:17:46.485+0000)

His passive literally lost 2 damage per level, but now has a 40% AP ratio. You literally only need five AP per level to compensate for that loss. Five. (Fun fact: This also means that starting Doran's Ring makes his passive do more damage at levels 1 and 2, and be equal at level 3. For what that's worth.)

Q's damage wasn't changed at all. In fact, his Q got two buffs, the mana restore and enemies not seeing the target indicator.

His W and E lost about a combined 40% AP ratio between them (their base damages weren't changed at all). That AP scaling didn't just vanish, though, it went into his passive. Basically, his W poke lost a bit of damage, but passive procs more than make up for the lost damage (since the passive is true damage).

The R change is subjective, but I will say that his ult's damage on its own is actually higher than before. Each tick of the laser now scales with 10% AP instead of 6%, and the base damage was buffed at ranks 2 and 3. It also got a lower cooldown on top of that. You lose the ability to proc your passive damage with it, but considering they added a 40% AP ratio to said passive...

Max level its 169 vs 205. You need 100 ability power to make the passive have the same damage as before. Lower levels means building a catalyst or other mana sustain item takes a hit on passive dmg. So now you are forced to trade lane sustain or durability for damage early game. The hit on his E and W ALSO make it even harder to build any sort of sustain early because no dmg.

I didnt say his Q was nerfed. His W and E were. Those are also his BEST WAVE CLEAR ABILITIES.

his R is still poop. The fact that you lose an upwards of 410+ true damage from stacks and his ult to JUST flat magic damage if you cant 3 hit them first is garbage. What are the odds of you comboing the whole team and applying true damage "buff" on all of them? Slim to none. Id rather apply some true damage coupled with good magic damage vs all magic damage and no true damage.

Spartan SolMay 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Max level its 169 vs 205. You need 100 ability power to make the passive have the same damage as before. Lower levels means building a catalyst or other mana sustain item takes a hit on passive dmg. So now you are forced to trade lane sustain or durability for damage early game.

I didnt say his Q was nerfed. His W and Q were.

his R is still poop. The fact that you lose an upwards of 410+ true damage from stacks and his ult to JUST flat magic damage if you cant 3 hit them first is garbage. What are the odds of you comboing the whole team and applying true damage "buff" on all of them? Slim to none. Id rather apply some true damage coupled with good magic damage vs all magic damage and no true damage.

except with 2 dorans rings your perfectly fine to build whatever until lvl 7 cus your passive does more damage than before.. his combo is honestly fairly easy since in a teamfight one hit E and you have 3 procs with your W.

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

except with 2 dorans rings your perfectly fine to build whatever until lvl 7 cus your passive does more damage than before.. his combo is honestly fairly easy since in a teamfight one hit E and you have 3 procs with your W.

So i have to buy 2 throw away items that give me ZERO durability just to have mana regen and damage to keep up? You would be hard pressed to tell me that dorans rings give enough sustain to keep up with the catalyst.

Also you need ~6 AP per level to keep up with the old passive damage. 2 Dorans will fall off at lvl 5.

Spartan SolMay 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So i have to buy 2 throw away items that give me ZERO durability just to have mana regen and damage to keep up? You would be hard pressed to tell me that dorans rings give enough sustain to keep up with the catalyst.

Also you need ~6 AP per level to keep up with the old passive damage. 2 Dorans will fall off at lvl 5.

zero durablity? they give health and mana regen.. along with AP and they are crazy cheap. i buy 2 dorans every game on mid mages because they are so cost efficient. and at lvl 5 you should have plenty of gold for your first major AP item. which will easily toss you over the old passive damage. the new catalyst is honest bad on velkoz because he should never be taking major damage he is a long range mage.. tear would be a better purchase even tho im not sure vel spams enough to stack it. and yes actually 2x dorans surpass the sustain on cata. if you know how to micro manage your AA's and abilities. i rarely run out of mana. the only time i do is when i have just takin an engage or fought back a gank.

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

zero durablity? they give health and mana regen.. along with AP and they are crazy cheap. i buy 2 dorans every game on mid mages because they are so cost efficient. and at lvl 5 you should have plenty of gold for your first major AP item. which will easily toss you over the old passive damage. the new catalyst is honest bad on velkoz because he should never be taking major damage he is a long range mage.. tear would be a better purchase even tho im not sure vel spams enough to stack it. and yes actually 2x dorans surpass the sustain on cata. if you know how to micro manage your AA's and abilities. i rarely run out of mana. the only time i do is when i have just takin an engage or fought back a gank.

The old Catalyst was much better. It definitely favors melee mages now. HP regen on those is fine but its not enough to make a serious impact. Honestly he squishes so hard that Ive found straight HP to be best to help him survive trades. And yes, I play him aggressive and poke A LOT so mana would be an issue for my playstyle.

Spartan SolMay 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The old Catalyst was much better. It definitely favors melee mages now. HP regen on those is fine but its not enough to make a serious impact. Honestly he squishes so hard that Ive found straight HP to be best to help him survive trades. And yes, I play him aggressive and poke A LOT so mana would be an issue for my playstyle.

old cata was deff better but vel isnt a major poke mage.. he isnt like xerath or lux. His Q is pretty decent at poke but chunks crazy mana and has a decently long cd. if i was vs you and saw you going agro id just let you burn ur mana and cd's then jump on you and erase you since you couldn't fight back. Vel has one of the best teamfights in the entire game and thats what he is picked for.

HolyAvenger666May 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

old cata was deff better but vel isnt a major poke mage.. he isnt like xerath or lux. His Q is pretty decent at poke but chunks crazy mana and has a decently long cd. if i was vs you and saw you going agro id just let you burn ur mana and cd's then jump on you and erase you since you couldn't fight back. Vel has one of the best teamfights in the entire game and thats what he is picked for.

I use E and W combo with thunderlord's for poke. Q I only use to slow them from coming at me. Honestly if they could just fix his ult so it isnt combo based OR adds procs without actually damaging thus converting his ult into true dmg eventually, he would be on par with where he should be.

Spartan SolMay 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I use E and W combo with thunderlord's for poke. Q I only use to slow them from coming at me. Honestly if they could just fix his ult so it isnt combo based OR adds procs without actually damaging thus converting his ult into true dmg eventually, he would be on par with where he should be.

so turn him back into a click R bot late game? ill take the new vel he actually requires a little more skill now. i tried him on another account and honestly his basic combo with his upgraded passive by far makes up for the slight ulti nerf. because if you do hit that 3 combo and ult that target has 0 chance outside a lucky dash,blink, or flash to get out of your ult range

ElphrihaimMay 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So i have to buy 2 throw away items that give me ZERO durability just to have mana regen and damage to keep up? You would be hard pressed to tell me that dorans rings give enough sustain to keep up with the catalyst.

"throw away items".

No, they're so that you can have regen and damage. >_>

Also you need ~6 AP per level to keep up with the old passive damage.

You need 5. Exactly 5. Not "~6". Exactly 5.

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"throw away items".

No, they're so that you can have regen and damage. >_>

You need 5. Exactly 5. Not "~6". Exactly 5.

30 ability power translates to 12 passive damage. That means you would need ~6 per level to see a difference.

Reaper ReviewMay 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

30 ability power translates to 12 passive damage. That means you would need ~6 per level to see a difference.

V6.9:

Organic Deconstruction Base damage increase per level reduced to 8 from 10. NEW EFFECT: Now scales with 40% AP.

That's a difference of two per level. 40% of five is two, ergo, 5 AP per level.

ElphrihaimMay 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

30 ability power translates to 12 passive damage.

12/30 = 0.4

Vel's passive ratio = 0.4.

Correct.

That means you would need ~6 per level to see a difference.

No.

Because that number (30 : 12) is relevant when Vel is level 6.

The correct comparison is

#0.4 * AP : 2*Level

Or

#0.2 * AP : Level

Or

#1 * AP: 5*Level

Or, as Reaper said, "You need 5 AP per level".

(for each of those steps:

the ratio added as a decimal : the base damage lost.
divide both sides by 2.
multiply both sides by 5.)

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

12/30 = 0.4

Vel's passive ratio = 0.4.

Correct.

No.

Because that number (30 : 12) is relevant when Vel is level 6.

The correct comparison is

#0.4 * AP : 2*Level

Or

#0.2 * AP : Level

Or

#1 * AP: 5*Level

Or, as Reaper said, "You need 5 AP per level".

(for each of those steps:

the ratio added as a decimal : the base damage lost.

divide both sides by 2.

multiply both sides by 5.)

You're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying you need at least 6+ per level for it to be worthwhile. 5 to break even, and 6 to be above. 2 Doran provides 30 AP. That means you will see a GAIN in dmg until lvl 5. Anything after that is breakeven and loss.

Were all correct.

Also, Id prefer to keep the damage and put 700 gold into an item I will keep later game.

Icestar1186May 10, 20161 votes

By max level, 100 AP is laughably easy to achieve. You can get that from 2 items easily.

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

By max level, 100 AP is laughably easy to achieve. You can get that from 2 items easily.

Im talking early game snowballing. He has none of it now. I'm talking getting ur first kill lvl 6 or eralier to put u ahead, and doing it safely because the catalyst heals and gives health/mana.

Reaper ReviewMay 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Im talking early game snowballing. He has none of it now. I'm talking getting ur first kill lvl 6 or eralier to put u ahead, and doing it safely because the catalyst heals and gives health/mana.

Can't you just play safe and get Lost Chapter for mana? Coincidentally, it builds into Morellonomicon, which is a great item and gives 100 AP, thus eliminating the issue you have with his passive as well. (I'm assuming you'll finish Morello WAY before level 18, so your passive is now stronger than it would've been pre-changes.)

Artillery mages aren't really the intended users of the new Catalyst, since they generally want to avoid taking damage from the enemy champion as much as possible.

Yes, he might not snowball as well early on, but Q farming is an option now with its mana refund on kill if things go south.

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Review,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZMnBjPQE,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-10T19:53:08.933+0000)

Can't you just play safe and get Lost Chapter for mana? Coincidentally, it builds into Morellonomicon, which is a great item and gives 100 AP, thus eliminating the issue you have with his passive as well. (I'm assuming you'll finish Morello WAY before level 18, so your passive is now stronger than it would've been pre-changes.)

Artillery mages aren't really the intended users of the new Catalyst, since they generally want to avoid taking damage from the enemy champion as much as possible.

Yes, he might not snowball as well early on, but Q farming is an option now with its mana refund on kill if things go south.

Honestly I love ROA on him for the sustain, high AP, and lots of health and mana. This is why prepatch I would rush Catalyst for in lane heal/mana regen, then get low lvl kills to have my ROA pre lvl 8.

He needs HP to help if he gets ganked. Now, he doesn't really have that option anymore.

Icestar1186May 10, 20163 votes

His passive got a massive buff. What are you even on? Was flat damage, is now AP scaling.

M0b1usMay 10, 20163 votes

Vel is holding about a 48% win rate. Let that sink in for a bit.

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Review,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZMnBjPQE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-10T19:17:46.485+0000)

The R change is subjective, but I will say that his ult's damage on its own is actually higher than before.

His new ult only deals more damage if you use it on a target that has your passive on it. Without it, his old ult deals much more damage because of the passive procs.

HolyAvenger666May 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Vel is holding about a 48% win rate. Let that sink in for a bit.

His new ult only deals more damage if you use it on a target that has your passive on it. Without it, his old ult deals much more damage because of the passive procs.

I never said he was bad. Hes just not as good. I main him, best score so far has been 24-1. Hell I went 10-3 first time since the rework. His ult could NOT finish the job and I had more than a few kills get away because the enemy would get away with like 50 hp. That's some bullshit.

Before, if they were low enough you could long range them with ur ult. Now you need the fucking combo for it to be viable and usually they just flash once u land ur wombo and set u up to miss ur finishing ult anyway.

Dorion44May 16, 20161 votes

His old ult melted whole teams at a time. His new ult melt one champ if your lucky to live long enough to pop the research.

Melting teams > melting a single champ

Please reapply his passive to his ult. TY

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