Please revert Lissandra nerfs

Elsa of Garendel·May 7, 2019·64 votes·16,563 views

r/LissandraMains - Aftershock gone = Liss winrate is now 45.54%

Lissandra was good because of Aftershock, because she could waveclear efficiently early. But now Aftershock is nerfed to disincentivize mages to run it (indirect nerf to Lissandra). The Dark Seal was already nerfed, which Liss relied on to sustain with corrupting pot if she wanted to expend the mana to waveclear early. Right now she has a 46% percent win rate after all is said and done. The things that made her strong were nerfed and dealt with, yet she is still left with nerfed E damage, nerfed R ratios, and most importantly NERFED Q COOLDOWN. Please shift some power away from her competitive-team-play-reliant passive back to her abilities so that she has more solo queue play potential. Liss mains don't want to play a CC bot, shift some potential back into her abilities so she can see more variety in playstyles.

45 Comments

bluefire mark 2May 7, 201931 votes

Lissandra shouldn't be good because of aftershock though. It was a cancerous strat that wasn't intended for the game and was very unhealthy. Riot changed aftershock to its original purpose, tanks. Yeah she could use a small buff or two, but I'm glad aftershock is no longer good on her.

Elsa of GarendelMay 7, 201931 votes

She shouldn't be, that's exactly my point. And yet she was nerfed BECAUSE Aftershock was good on her. Now that Aftershock is changed to fit tanks, they should revert any nerfs they made on Liss.

bluefire mark 2May 7, 20199 votes

Here was the last change they made to her btw.

Ring of Frost Base damage increased to 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 from 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190. AP ratio increased to 50% AP from 30% AP.

A buff. She could still use more yes, but at least they did SOMETHING instead of nerfing her more like aatrox and akali

ITZ ICYMay 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=bluefire mark 2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEakFApj,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-07T06:40:01.665+0000)

Here was the last change they made to her btw.

Ring of Frost Base damage increased to 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 from 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190. AP ratio increased to 50% AP from 30% AP.

A buff. She could still use more yes, but at least they did SOMETHING instead of nerfing her more like aatrox and akali

Aatrox nerf? When?

bluefire mark 2May 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=HOT PINK,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEakFApj,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-07T17:51:27.940+0000)

Aatrox nerf? When?

Aatrox rework release- nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, buff, nerf, nerf, mini rework. Probably not the literal anount but you get my point..

hiyaresMay 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=bluefire mark 2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEakFApj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-07T06:33:11.299+0000)

Lissandra shouldn't be good because of aftershock though. It was a cancerous strat that wasn't intended for the game and was very unhealthy. Riot changed aftershock to its original purpose, tanks. Yeah she could use a small buff or two, but I'm glad aftershock is no longer good on her.

but most tanks cant even properly use the rune.......... i men the only tank that reliably ever uses it is Sejuani other than her its only ever seen on shit like galio who imo cant be called a ful lfledge tank hes moerl ike an off tank with his builds then you have sylas i have seen pantheon lissandra most tanks cant really use it with how massive some of their cds on the cc is or how the cc works its best used for quick trades which a lot of tanks cant do ohh and i forgot Maokai Amumu Nautilus (but lets be real he goes full ap atm to be viable)i think those are the only ones who use after shock in the entire league roster.... ijs tank runes are not viable on most tanks you should see how they all build the same runes or go to another tree for better sustain or lane presence.

bluefire mark 2May 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

but most tanks cant even properly use the rune.......... i men the only tank that reliably ever uses it is other than her its only ever seen on shit like galio who imo cant be called a ful lfledge tank hes moerl ike an off tank with his builds then you have sylas i have seen pantheon lissandra most tanks cant really use it with how massive some of their cds on the cc is or how the cc works its best used for quick trades which a lot of tanks cant do ohh and i forgot (but lets be real he goes full ap atm to be viable)i think those are the only ones who use after shock in the entire league roster.... ijs tank runes are not viable on most tanks you should see how they all build the same runes or go to another tree for better sustain or lane presence.

Um yes... aftershock is for tanks. Lissandras not a tank. I never said tanks shouldn't use aftershock. So why are you telling me something that i didn't even talk about?

LissXsisMay 7, 201915 votes

I think Liss should just get fully reverted, especially her passive. A rework is supposed to add something to a kit, but Liss's one just took power from her main kit and put it on a passive skill, that we can't even control. Then her main kit got nerfed several times, until Lissandra's whole kit became "press R and spawn passives". I think that it's not healthy for the champion and the game overall when a champion's main job gets reduced to existing and spawning passives. The w change, that made it go center-to-center instead of edge-to-edge, is something I don't understand either. Old w allowed you to kite and to display skill while dodging spells. The new w just forces you to stay back until you know you can outstat the enemy you wanna engage on, especially on champions with large hitboxes. I gotta admit, I think, that making the E visible through walls was a good change that adds counterplay against her and that no champion should be able to blink over a large wall without an indicator or any kind of warning. Liss used to be one of the most flexible champions. You could play TP or ignite, could take Electrocute, Aery, Comet, Aftershock, even Klepto. You could be flexible in itemization. You could lane bully, splitpush or teamfight. But Liss was never too strong in either role and did not go above 50% winrate until Aftershock came up as a counter to the Irelia, Yasuo and LeBlanc meta. Now with the removed scalings and mana passive you are forced to take aftershock to survive lane. You can barely punish bad players in lane because you are missing both damage and mana. You build Luden's to have enough mana, then get magic pen to abuse your passive dmg and hope you win the game because you won't be useful after that because of the removed scalings. You can't properly splitpush anymore because you run out of mana way too fast and your passive requires you to be in teamfight early. Liss's playstyle is very one-dimensional since the rework which shows how unhealthy the passive is. Aftershock with Corrupting Pot and Dark Seal is a problem I won't talk about because others have done it in this thread and because I personally think, it's not what lead to Lissandra's fall. To sum it up: I think the whole rework was a mistake and is a disaster in terms of balance and in terms of good champ design (except for the E visibility change). Liss should be reverted to her old state, especially since Aftershock and Dark Seal got nerfed and the assassin meta has passed, so she wouldn't be too strong in her old state.

0cool1Jul 27, 20191 votes

I agree, at least her q would be ok again. Im fine with a revert.

Yáng Xiao LongMay 7, 201914 votes

I agree wholeheartedly. The reason why she got nerfed was because of how easily and safely she was able to use Aftershock to great success and nigh-impossible to punish laning phase that transitioned into unrivalled teamfight power, but now she doesn't have even that annoying crutch to fall back on. We're sitting with an increase in Q cooldown so high that it eliminates any and all early lane pressure that Lissandra ever had, nerfed (now slightly better) W damage and E damage while most of the power that was taken out of those two abilities in particular was shifted into her passive that requires a nearby hostile death before it even becomes online. All of the direct nerfs (Q CD, W, E & R damage) along with the indirect ones (Aftershock, Dark Seal) make her a shadow of her former self. I know the vast majority of Lissandra mains enjoyed the more solo-oriented playstyle for the champion while also being able to offer great utility, CC and overall massive teamfight presence later on in the game whereas now she is essentially like Galio but worse. For myself I loved the surprising early power that she had with a basic ability that doesn't have double the cooldown of other champs' that does more damage and offers more to the table than a single target slow (I'll seriously never live that travesty down). I fell in love with the Lissandra who could get ahead early on in lane BY HERSELF, the Lissandra who could push a lane without running out of mana in two waves because it takes her entire rotation and then some to clear one fast, the Lissandra who was able to make plays on her own without having to only rely on full-on teamplay and just ''not feed and be useful later''. Please bring back the champion that we all know and love, she is missed very dearly over Galio 2.0 over here.

Z3SleeperMay 7, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I agree wholeheartedly. The reason why she got nerfed was because of how easily and safely she was able to use Aftershock to great success and nigh-impossible to punish laning phase that transitioned into unrivalled teamfight power, but now she doesn't have even that annoying crutch to fall back on. We're sitting with an increase in Q cooldown so high that it eliminates any and all early lane pressure that Lissandra ever had, nerfed (now slightly better) W damage and E damage while most of the power that was taken out of those two abilities in particular was shifted into her passive that requires a nearby hostile death before it even becomes online. All of the direct nerfs (Q CD, W, E & R damage) along with the indirect ones (Aftershock, Dark Seal) make her a shadow of her former self. I know the vast majority of Lissandra mains enjoyed the more solo-oriented playstyle for the champion while also being able to offer great utility, CC and overall massive teamfight presence later on in the game whereas now she is essentially like Galio but worse. For myself I loved the surprising early power that she had with a basic ability that doesn't have double the cooldown of other champs' that does more damage and offers more to the table than a single target slow (I'll seriously never live that travesty down). I fell in love with the Lissandra who could get ahead early on in lane BY HERSELF, the Lissandra who could push a lane without running out of mana in two waves because it takes her entire rotation and then some to clear one fast, the Lissandra who was able to make plays on her own without having to only rely on full-on teamplay and just ''not feed and be useful later''. Please bring back the champion that we all know and love, she is missed very dearly over Galio 2.0 over here.

Same

goodiesohhiMay 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I agree wholeheartedly. The reason why she got nerfed was because of how easily and safely she was able to use Aftershock to great success and nigh-impossible to punish laning phase that transitioned into unrivalled teamfight power, but now she doesn't have even that annoying crutch to fall back on. We're sitting with an increase in Q cooldown so high that it eliminates any and all early lane pressure that Lissandra ever had, nerfed (now slightly better) W damage and E damage while most of the power that was taken out of those two abilities in particular was shifted into her passive that requires a nearby hostile death before it even becomes online. All of the direct nerfs (Q CD, W, E & R damage) along with the indirect ones (Aftershock, Dark Seal) make her a shadow of her former self. I know the vast majority of Lissandra mains enjoyed the more solo-oriented playstyle for the champion while also being able to offer great utility, CC and overall massive teamfight presence later on in the game whereas now she is essentially like Galio but worse. For myself I loved the surprising early power that she had with a basic ability that doesn't have double the cooldown of other champs' that does more damage and offers more to the table than a single target slow (I'll seriously never live that travesty down). I fell in love with the Lissandra who could get ahead early on in lane BY HERSELF, the Lissandra who could push a lane without running out of mana in two waves because it takes her entire rotation and then some to clear one fast, the Lissandra who was able to make plays on her own without having to only rely on full-on teamplay and just ''not feed and be useful later''. Please bring back the champion that we all know and love, she is missed very dearly over Galio 2.0 over here.

I don't play Lissandra but I main Azir. This reminds me of how I can land every ability and get like 4 autos off and not have lethal but any burst mage can just insta fullcombo me.

TeCoolMageMay 7, 20198 votes

E dmg buff would be a great buff for liss players who have learnt to use it for risky damage and dodging at the same time instead of as an escape

0 HogapuMay 7, 20198 votes

Hi Elsa, love your vidz btw :)

I would actually like a revert, her passive seems off..

Lord of ValarinMay 7, 20196 votes

me too!

PadoµchMay 7, 20197 votes

EM, as an ex Zyra mid main, we tried telling Riot that ap item change and rune change was bad.. Guess what? Cries in 42% Mid Zyra winrate

Lord of ValarinMay 7, 20193 votes

I feel that fellow ex zyra mid friend!

KídáMay 7, 20193 votes

As a mid main, I feel for you. People always ask for our champs to be nerfed for support but no love is shown for mid

SweedishGunnerMay 7, 20193 votes

Because no one wants to see those champions in mid either.

RagnaveilMay 7, 20193 votes

Because the several attempts to make them return to mid made their support versions more and more annoying. It would have to take an entire rework just for that to work. You'd have to kill spellthiefs on them if you'd ever want to see them return to mid.

VoidnerMay 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

EM, as an ex Zyra mid main, we tried telling Riot that ap item change and rune change was bad.. Guess what? Cries in 42% Mid Zyra winrate

Lissandra is going to become a support too now i guess ¯_(ツ)_/¯

AmWhaleIRLMay 7, 20196 votes

Literally all Liss needs is the Q Cooldown reverted. They practically doubled it, making her early waveclear and all-ins aweful. That's where I find most of my troubles anyways. I can live with the other nerfs.

Lord of ValarinMay 7, 20195 votes

I really just want Liss reverted to pre passive change state.

PotionBlade3363May 7, 20195 votes

I completely agree! Nerfing Lissandra instead of Aftershock was the wrong way to handle it. It was Aftershock that was overpowered, not Lissandra. And now when Aftershock, what made Lissandra see the light of day, is nerfed she should definitly recieve some compensation buffs, preferably to a level that makes her good without a silly rune.

King Smug GumsMay 8, 20195 votes

Please! I’ve maimed lissandra since her reales se and she is no longer fun to play with. I’ve put her on hold to find a new main.

Her q takes forever She’s weak overall

NanoFlameZeroOneMay 7, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Elsa of Garendel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEakFApj,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-07T06:29:48.523+0000)

Lissandra was good because of Aftershock, because she could waveclear efficiently early. But now Aftershock is nerfed to disincentivize mages to run it (indirect nerf to Lissandra). The Dark Seal was already nerfed, which Liss relied on to sustain with corrupting pot if she wanted to expend the mana to waveclear early. Right now she has a 46% percent win rate after all is said and done. The things that made her strong were nerfed and dealt with, yet she is still left with nerfed E damage, nerfed R ratios, and most importantly NERFED Q COOLDOWN. Please shift some power away from her competitive-team-play-reliant passive back to her abilities so that she has more solo queue play potential. Liss mains don't want to play a CC bot, shift some potential back into her abilities so she can see more variety in playstyles.

She is fucking trash now. They gutted her. Same with Ornn. Trash. Idiot balance team morons.

SugarliciousMay 8, 20194 votes

I've passed on the recent sale for her Coven skin precisely because she's just not worth playing anymore. Her Q CD is too long to farm efficiently, and if you use it for farming, you can't use it for punishing any champ that comes too close to you. You can just press W and run away. So..yeah, I agree, but I doubt anything will be done about her.

Emo TwinkMay 7, 20193 votes

Even reverting that W buff but undoing most the nerfs would be good at least. I hate the E nerf showing over walls or smth that they did, removed good surprises... And Q nerf feels absolutely horrible too, that was way too far. I hate CC bot liss, dmg Liss is actually fun but with passive update and nerfs constantly, it feels almost unplayable properly like it used to be.

Praying balance team can fix this!

BisaknospMay 7, 20193 votes

tbh i used to play her with comet 80% of the time (aftershock only against cancer melees like kata) now she just feels horrible to play the q cd and the e damage nerfs should be reverted she was never the problem aftershock was and is

ExOnYouMay 7, 20193 votes

Yes please. We would greatly appreciate it.

Guess What BuddyMay 7, 20193 votes

Yup i definitely agree. Lissandra is in a very bad spot right now. She was way more fun before the whole aftershock fiesta. I'm really glad Aftershock isn't meta anymore, but she's still very underwhelming. The old passive helped her a lot more.

RagnaveilMay 7, 20192 votes

Whats sad is, Sylas got nerfed for the exact same thing, and they think a simple W damage buff is gonna fix the amount of gutting they've done to him. He's missing a good 100-200 healing that he needs to survive if tank isn't a viable thing, and AP cant do anything unless he builds a Deathcap. For a AP fighter, he's practically forced to be a 100-0 squish mage.

BlackLov3May 7, 20192 votes

100% agree. They took so much mana and damage from her because of the passive change, and then even the irrelevant q nerf... Some bonus ap ratio on w won't cut it. That's like a thief stealing 100 dollars from you just to give you 10 back. We really want the old liss back.

SaiannaMay 7, 20192 votes

Riots guide to buff a champion:

is the champion a vayne or riven or some other riot postergirl/boy?
No.
Will not be buffed.

Also in case of nerfs all Riots posterboys and girls are always compensated in the same patch with buffs "just in case so our skin sales won't drop"

EATARIMay 7, 20192 votes

Feels bad man. I can’t say much because my champ got buffed by the change. Volibear

MonstermushmushMay 7, 20191 votes

Buff ekko.

EleshakaiMay 8, 20191 votes

I don't think reverting the changes is appropriate. I think now that she's ended up underpowered, they should make small tweaks upwards to find a healthy place for her.

Emo TwinkMay 8, 20192 votes

It was only aftershock that made her relevant, now with that not being oppressive, there's no reason for her not to get nerfs reverted

Respect Women XDMay 8, 20191 votes

With aftershock she was unkillable on lane, good this is gone

R EMay 8, 20191 votes

winrates are BULLSHIT

RavenbornMay 8, 20191 votes

She was nerfed because she was "spammy" LMAO

Aatrox AirlinesMay 8, 20191 votes

feel the pain of aatrox mains who had their champion at like 44% wr for six patches in a row. six.

IronyAndSublimeMay 8, 20191 votes

Ryze You're so cute.

STDspreaderMay 10, 20191 votes

I completely agree! Aftershock has completely ruined Lissandra and taken ALL the fun out of her playstyle. She should honestly be reverted to her pre-passive change state so she's no longer a boring cc bot who can't do anything. Her passive is also part of the reason why Riot took damage out of her abilities which is completely wrong. She also runs out of mana super fast now which is why they need to bring back her old passive so she doesn't need a mana item every single game. It's disgusting how Riot has ruined her old, fun burst mage playstyle. I quit for a long time after the changes to her kit.

VekknaMay 24, 20191 votes

Aftershock by itself was never the problem. Even though it was popular in Worlds, she wasn't winning games. Her win rate at Worlds was 40th out of 43 champs picked more than once in the entire tournament. Even at peak bandwagon, it wasn't a balance problem in terms of win rate.

The problem is her passive. The old passive had more power in lower elo and was functionally non-existent at high elo. The new passive is incredibly high-impact at high elo, all of which is new power. At low elo the new passive is a crapshoot and not remotely worth the tax on her kit and mana bar.

Aftershock Liss existed for 23 patches in season 8, and not once was it a balance nightmare. Only after 8.24 did her high elo stats shoot through the roof.

So please, for the love of god, identify the right problem.