That's what I think, there's no reason to give all that mobility and damage reduction to melee champs like Yasuo or Tryndamere, that item is designed for marksmen to fight melee champs, not for bruisers who are good duelists and already have a lot of mobility.
What do you guys think?
venomous frost2 votesactually, it was made so melee champs can keep up with ranged champs kiting them.
Only ranged champs having this would literally be the death of melees
also: bruisers don't have mobility
Heavenly Yasha4 votesBruisers (like rengar, yasuo, trynda) usually have a gap closer, PD was meant to help marksmen without mobility, like Ashe for example, to help them kiting better. Why should Yasuo have 12% damage reduction and 7% more MS when he already is a strong duelist and has an insane mobility?
venomous frost1 voteswhy should vayne have 7% ms and 12% dmg reduction when she already has insane mobility, self peel and stealth? this argument goes both ways
trynda and yasuo and rengar all have 1 gapcloser, if you get cced or knocked back they can't do anything.
also none of the champions mentioned are bruisers, yasuo trynda and rengar are all 3 light fighters/assassins.
Heavenly Yasha1 votesCall them as you like, they are melee champs with tons of damage, they can one or two shot squishy champs and there's no reason to give them those bonus stats.
DeathBurst2 votes"Bruiser" traditionally means more the likes of Trundle, Volibear, maybe Xin or Jax. But we had a nice article recently with a set of definitions and new words to use: Juggernauts, Divers, Skirmishers and Assassins.
As for your OP: Phantom Dancer is an item for duelists. Not an item to help poor duelists kite better. Poor duelists should just stay with their team, and Phantom Dancer is an item for champions that like to walk fast and alone and to fight their fights 1 on 1. Ranged or melee doesn't matter, I don't understand where you found that idea.
As a few examples:
So even for Ranged champs, what you said is wrong.
Heavenly Yasha1 votesMaybe I'm wrong, but I'll try to answer
Let's talk about Master Yi, Yasuo and Trynda now. They have a really high mobility and they are some of the best duelists in the game. Why should PD be meant to help them? Moreover new PD was reworked during the marksmen update to give ADCs different build paths based on the player playstile. Anyway I'm probably wrong, but that item is too strong on them in my opinion.
DeathBurst1 votes[{quoted}](name=Heavenly Yasha,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEATsvAg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-07T13:49:24.722+0000)
they are some of the best duelists in the game. Why should PD be meant to help them?
Because PD is an item with "This is an item for Duelist" written all over it. It has targeted defense against a single opponent, it has move speed if an enemy is within 500 range, this is shorter than most immobile ADC range (even jinx in minigun form has 525), but it is perfect for short range ADC like Vayne/Graves or Melee Champs like Trynd/Yas. And it gives you a far greater MS than the rest of your team, which is great if you often roam alone or splitpush, as a good duelist should do, but not very useful if you should stay in the middle of your team protected by your supports/tanks.
MLDzXnRRR1 votes[{quoted}](name=Heavenly Yasha,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEATsvAg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-07T10:22:54.412+0000)
Bruisers (like rengar, yasuo, trynda) usually have a gap closer, PD was meant to help marksmen without mobility, like Ashe for example, to help them kiting better. Why should Yasuo have 12% damage reduction and 7% more MS when he already is a strong duelist and has an insane mobility?
Melee champions have gapclosers, because they get permakited by the ranged champions. Yasuo, Trynda and Yi are ADCs with less safety and often less utility and damage than the ranged champions. Ranged champions can also buy defensive items that are usually bought on fighters to protect themselves from the ranged DPS. You can see matches from season 2-3 with Trynda (Trynda isn't picked after season 3 at all in competitive) in them and the enemy team ADC is usually with Randuins Omen!!! He needs rework or buffs, also he is unfun to play against. Yasuo has lower base stats than many ranged ADCs, why would he buy items for % dmg reduction, hmmm....
Heavenly Yasha1 votesPermakited? LOL Yasuo or Master Yi permakited, that's really funny...
Sightless662 votesactually, it was made so melee champs can keep up with ranged champs kiting them.
That was not why it was made. The expressed purpose was to give AD carries choices in their itemization by allowing them to give up the damage of the other zeal items in exchange for better safety against melee assassins and bruisers.
Only ranged champs having this would literally be the death of melees
Major exaggeration. It's already being used primarily as an item for ranged champions with a few exceptions. It would hurt a couple of champions to have it be ranged only, but most melee champions, particularly bruisers, would be unchanged.
Mind you, I'm not saying that having it be ranged only is a good idea. I don't think it is a good idea. I'm just saying you're blowing this majorly out of proportion.
bruisers don't have mobility
Plenty of bruisers do have mobility. Renekton, Vi, Jax, Irelia, Hecarim, Jarvan, etc. Just saying "bruisers don't have mobility" is patently wrong. A small subset of bruisers lack mobility (the juggernaut types), but most have it to some degree or another.
The Last Ballad1 votesThe expressed purpose was to give AD carries choices in their itemization
Wait, so Tryndamere, Yi, and Yasuo are ap now? Last time I checked, each of them could carry a game and are primarily, if not completely, ad.
So by definition they are an Attack Damage Carry
Sightless662 votesThis is way too pedantic. You know exactly what I mean when I say "AD carries". ADC is a term used in this game to refer to ranged AD autoattackers, and that is how I am using the term. I am not even slightly interested in debating whether or not the term is as accurate as possible.
You can call Trynd, Yi, and Yasuo melee AD carries, light fighters, AD carries, or whatever else you want. I legitimately don't give even a single fuck. The point is, they were not the group targeted by the item rework even if they did end up benefiting from it.
Miraweave2 votesHow about we remove it's passive entirely because it's bs?
Heavenly Yasha1 votesI agree, the damage reduction is stupid.
MLDzXnRRR1 votesAre you serious? Have you ever laned versus ranged ADC top? You can't go to cs, you can't CS under tower, you can't attack them without dying to minions. The only thing that saves your lane is your jungler. But if the enemy jungler camps the bush, you can go afk in the fountain...
Heavenly Yasha2 votesMost of the melee toplaners dont build PD anyway, so that's not the point. If you are facing an ADC top you should call your jungler jungler to shut him down early, since the marksman will push and play aggressive no matter what.
Shonjl1 votesAre you serious? Have you ever laned versus ranged ADC top? You can't go to cs, you can't CS under tower, you can't attack them without dying to minions. The only thing that saves your lane is your jungler. But if the enemy jungler camps the bush, you can go afk in the fountain...
I think people exaggerate too much about this. I have fought plenty of times against Teemo top, Kennen top, Vayne top, even Quinn top. It was hardly the end of the world, Teemo you basically just endure til you get SV and you own him, Kennen is basically no different but he is energy based so you can't really kick him out of lane other than just murdering him. Vayne takes so long to get going that you will often just destroy her if you get aggressive once you know you can trade with her, Quinn is mostly just annoying with her blind and you can't escape her, once you are able to duel her, escaping is now meaningless and her blind is the only thing keeping her alive.
Truthfully I like ADC top laners since they don't get tanky so you will eat them alive if you are smart, I would rather fight Vayne or Quinn anyday than fight something like a Darius or even Jayce.
venomous frost2 votesonce you play ranked and get out of bronze ELO, you will notice there is nothing you can do against a quinn/vayne toplane as a melee, other than hope your jungler fks him.
Spicy Rice1 votesExactly. The best you can hope for is that they are bad and don't know how to abuse their range advantage properly, in which case you have a chance to win lane post 6
Heavenly Yasha1 votesYou just have to tell your jungler before the lane even starts to gank the quinn or vayne since they are going to play aggressive. If they harrass you under your turret it doesn't matter if they warded, they are going to die anyway in the 2v1.
I hate playing top vs them too, but this is not the point of my topic.
Spicy Rice1 votesThe problem with that stray is that it keeps your jungler top, thereby allowing the enemy jungler to gank not and mid and allows the enemy team to more easily take dragon. All because the enemy laner to plane was ranged.
Heavenly Yasha1 votesAfter one or two ganks if you are not able to destroy the marksman means that you are bad. At that point you should at least be able to farm without feeding, and you will have more impact with a tp play than him, since well he is a marksman, he needs items to scale.
venomous frost1 votesat that point you are hoping your jungler makes it a 2v1 lane, without their jungler counterganking.
This is exactly the point of this thread. You argue ranged champs need more mobility from this item than melee champs, yet melee champs are the one getting kited around vs a ranged.
Heavenly Yasha1 votesNo, after one gank if you get a kill you should be able to lane vs the ranged champ with your item and lv advantage. Why do you think people dont play marksmen top?
Sasogwa1 votes[{quoted}](name=Heavenly Yasha,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEATsvAg,comment-id=0001000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-07T13:10:07.857+0000)
No, after one gank if you get a kill you should be able to lane vs the ranged champ with your item and lv advantage. Why do you think people dont play marksmen top?
Because marksmen need protection to work efficiently in teamfights. Unless your team is full peel-based (you have like Azir mid, Nautilus jungle, Braum support) getting an ADC top is detrimental to your team's ability to teamfight, especially in lower elos where people's understanding of positioning and peeling is limited. It's certainly not their ability to lose lane. A good Vayne or Quinn is Teemo/Pantheon 2.0, their only pleasure in life is to make your laning hell and laugh at your tears. Even if they're behind against a lot of matchups their sheer ability to selfpeel makes them always win trades and all ins.