What an assassin means

bigslick88·Jun 5, 2015·42 votes·3,432 views

Take for example. He is the perfect example of an assassin because he is an all in kill one and is only able to get out through smart play/saving your ult. Most assassins now, have too many escapes for their damage. are just a few examples. To me an assassin is someone who risks their life to get one target and, like I said with talon, can only get out or get extra kills through smart play. A possible solution might be to decrease damage of those with more mobility, or to give mobility to those who don't have it (this would overall make assassins stronger and is therefore scary to toy with).

93 Comments

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 5, 20159 votes

An assassin should not be able to duel everyone in the game, bruisers should be able to 1v1 assassins. Darius Garen Jax Olaf Poppy Mordekaiser Chogath Yorick so forth

Especially if said assassin is known for his/her ability to reliably kill squishies in a teamfight; let alone escape. Zed Leblanc Fizz

Buttigieg 2020Jun 5, 201512 votes

Bruisers destroy assasins. I have never seen a zed beat a jax in a 1v1 where they are both equally strong.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 5, 20154 votes

I call bullshit, Zed has the ability to poke Jax down for an all-in

Meanwhile Jax does not have the ability to force Zed to duel, it's always in Zed's favor when it comes to that matchup.

stealthfox94Jun 5, 20152 votes

I laned against zed as jax once in top lane, it didn't end well for him, the moment he ulted me I just pressed E and proceeded to destroy him.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 5, 20152 votes

He does not ult you, the first one to all-in loses. If you were to E->Q you would've died for example, he on the other hand can poke you until he feels comfortable going in if he's competent.

Kuroi86Jun 6, 20151 votes

How many Jax x Zed lanes have you played in? You sound like you're talking theory. There's a difference between theory and experience. If a Jax player has done it, then I accept their experience over any theory you can put forth.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 6, 20151 votes

3~4.

I am not talking theory, Jax and other bruisers are hurt a lot by poke and disengage.

Jax specifically doesn't have sustain early on and the fact that Zed's fighting is composed of disengage until Jax blows his E lets him win by afk farm even if he does not net a kill on Jax early on.

Kuroi86Jun 6, 20153 votes

You are right, bruisers are hurt by poke and disengage. Outside of LeBlanc and Fizz, most assassins don't have quick disengage. Meanwhile, any bruiser worth his salt will either be dropping their own poke or going in for quick trades. The power contained within a bruisers lvl 3 means an assassin is going to have to play safe until lvl 6. Darius, Cho'Gath, Jax, Pantheon, Olaf, Renekton, these guys have means of either poking the enemy, or forcing trades. Combine this with their massive power spikes and the fact that they can build tanky out of the gate and you have a situation where said assassin can't just roll over their enemy, they seriously have to outplay.

No, Jax doesn't have built in sustain, that's what a Doran's Blade can do. And Jax jumping an enemy with a W/Q is pretty much a won trade. Enemy wants the cannon minion, pop E and stand on top of it.

Zed's disengage isn't instant, he has to drop his shadow and jump to it, by then Jax has already landed his Q. I'm not saying an assassin can't win that lane, but it's not going to be a sure win, this is why top lane was bruiser territory and assassins were rarely taken top, it was a struggle to really outdo a bruiser in lane due to how powerful their lvl 1-6 is.

KING OF MASKSJun 5, 20151 votes

I imagine if Jax is able to farm relatively well early on he would be able to both weather Zed's poke later in the game (due to a naturally tankier and higher sustain build) and catch out Zed unawares with a stun+leap combo, possibly baiting Zed's shadow dash beforehand.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 5, 20152 votes

It does not work that way, if Jax uses his E offensively he automatically loses the duel due to Zed's untargetability + deathmark.

KING OF MASKSJun 5, 20152 votes

How? Is it really impossible to land the stun+leap on Zed?

TaredomJun 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YvwTuKmR,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2015-06-05T18:47:19.666+0000)

It does not work that way, if Jax uses his E offensively he automatically loses the duel due to Zed's untargetability + deathmark.

Are you referring to when jax players use e to stun? Because thats a horrible argument because thats assuming that the jax player is awful.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 6, 20152 votes

Exactly.

You don't get to duel Zed as Jax, unless he messes up; he gets to duel you.

Mecha MaIphiteJun 5, 20151 votes

Jax's W+ult proc combo with a sheen can match over half of Zed's total burst. He's also resistant to both physical and magic damage, and Zed is known for doing a bit of magic damage as well, making him hard to itemize against. Jax doesn't suffer from that. He can also lock down Zed with his stun before he can escape, and take the small window of time to burst him down. Even if Zed does get away, Jax's Q has a low cooldown, letting him catch up.

I have been in this matchup as Jax against all elos of Zeds. If a goddamn unranked Jax can beat up a plat Zed, I'm sure that has to say something about who counters who.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 6, 20152 votes

Look, this has nothing to do with the ball of stats Jax is. Just like Rammus VS Tryndamere , Rammus very obviously counters Trynd.

Will Trynd sit there and fight Rammus? No, he has mobility and waveclear.

Same for Zed , except Zed can also kill the squishies.

Using the mobility and poke Zed has, he is also able to win the 1v1 vs Jax given distance and time; so long Zed avoids Jax E, he will win the 1v1.

Jax cannot force a duel against Zed without using his E offensively, meaning it doesn't mean jack shit; might as well give the win to Zed.

Mecha MaIphiteJun 6, 20151 votes

Have you played the matchup before? Mid-game, zed's full combo with ult does about as much as jax's w and ult proc. Jax has a lot more dps than zed, plus he is tanky.

Chaotic ReksJun 5, 20154 votes

Full AD Critmaster Garen can 1v5 your entire team

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 5, 20153 votes

fuking nerf beyblades spin too hard

DurzakaJun 5, 20155 votes

Zed and Fizz are probably the only 2 assassins in the entire game that can HOPE to win a 1v1 against a bruiser with equal gold.

Bruisers DESTROY assassins. And the only reason Zed can compete is he can poke and disengage. If it was an actual fight he would get wrecked.

Akali is SO HOTJun 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zed and Fizz are probably the only 2 assassins in the entire game that can HOPE to win a 1v1 against a bruiser with equal gold.

Bruisers DESTROY assassins. And the only reason Zed can compete is he can poke and disengage. If it was an actual fight he would get wrecked.

Yasuo can duel most bruisers in the game other than Jax. He has to outplay the shit outta Jax if he wants to beat him.

I Summons IJun 5, 20154 votes

Yasuo is not an assassin though :)

Akali is SO HOTJun 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Summons I,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YvwTuKmR,comment-id=0005000200000000,timestamp=2015-06-05T19:22:16.743+0000)

Yasuo is not an assassin though :)

Yes he is

Ketchup25Jun 5, 20151 votes

He is an melee adc/light fighter.

DarthSpectrumJun 6, 20151 votes

Assassins are AD casters who relies more on their abilities than just auto attacks to do damage.

Saying Yasuo is an assassin is like saying that Tryndamere is one as well. Sure, they can both do some considerable burst damage, but they do so with their auto attacks. They are more similar to ADCs or Bruisers than assassins.

Jarrito232Jun 5, 20151 votes

Bruisers can 1v1 assassins really well unless the assassin is fed. Ever try to play Zed vs. Darius? It is not a pretty sight.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJun 5, 20151 votes

I have many times, I main Darius. It's not as bad as you say, Zed usually loses some CS laning phase because he can't get in melee range; becomes useful later on because he can always split push elsewhere/kill carries.

It's unpleasant for me as the Darius to see that punk zoned then gets to do what he wants post lane phase anyway.

Jarrito232Jun 5, 20151 votes

Well thats what you do as an assassin if you are behind. You kind of have to babysit them to make sure they don't get any kind of kill potential. If your enemy Zed goes missing, that should be a redlight for the rest of your team.

stealthfox94Jun 5, 20151 votes

Darius still wins early vs Zed, and Zed has to be very careful when to use his ult, getting into an AA war with Darius would be very bad.

Jarrito232Jun 5, 20151 votes

Yeah Zed sucks against champs with armor, if he is going really even. Don't get me wrong, 21/2/1 Zed is going to murder your Bruiser, but that isn't because assassins are OP. That just meant your laner is doing something wrong.

Vik4prezJun 5, 20156 votes

Imo, assassins are just an unhealthy class in this game, especially with the way Riot designs them, notably their extremely high mobility coupled with their extremely high burst damage.

I do think Talon is a solid example of where assassins should be though. If he saves his ult to try to escape after blowing someone up, you can at least try to counter it with a pink ward/upgraded sweeper, so even though it can work as an escape it still has counterplay. Unfortunately for many assassins, they have the ability to jump in, delete someone, and disappear immediately without any potential for retaliation. Examples of this would be Leblanc Zed Ekko

Playing against assassins is one of my least favorite things in this game if they know what theyre doing.

Guy Fox TeemoJun 5, 20152 votes

Talons not an example of a "Good Assassin' Infact he's on of the worst offenders of an assassin, like leblanc he gives you no reaction time to react to what he's gonna do, if he ults and jump on you and he has the damage , you will INSTANTLY die. Talon though in general is a bad champion, since he cannot burst without his ult, though benefits on him is that he has the most aoe in a team fight out of all assassins, besides katarina, but even then katarina can do the job better then him in every way, assassin's aren't "OP" (Maybe ekko a little bit) They're just very frustrating to play against in general , since the idea of an assassin is a quick death and escape , with no retaliation from the enemy, no matter what assassin you make , every single one of them will be frustrating to play against, they could just remove all the assassins and not make anymore but no one would like that either. So preety much deal with it, they're unfun to play against but oh well , we can't just delete them all and remove the class entirely.

stealthfox94Jun 5, 20156 votes

I think the only assassin that people deserve to complain about is Leblanc , since she can do insane damage and still be safe Ekko still to new I think if anything he's just a little overtuned Fizz got gutted and then mildly reworked because he was a noobstomper, he also needs his E to kill people now since he can't just press q and w and one shot squishies anymore. Katarina is only scary if fed but she's not hard to shut down. Zed only good if the person playing him has mastered him which most people haven't Talon like you said a very balanced assassin. Akali is the second worst designed champion in the game, but she's not OP currently.

Ancestor007Jun 5, 20151 votes

Finally someone who doesn't say Kata is op. Btw i just hit rank 5 on her .

stealthfox94Jun 5, 20153 votes

She's strong in teamfights no doubt about it, but any amount of CC can wreck her.

FistOfSharkieshaJun 6, 20151 votes

Kat is an oddball. One of the best fed assassins in the game but a pitiful duelist. I love having her on the enemy team when I'm mid but when I'm support or some other role and watch my mid laner feed her or let her roam around the map 2 minutes into the game I pretty much just wait for everyone to forfeit.

LlaniteJun 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Take for example. He is the perfect example of an assassin because he is an all in kill one and is only able to get out through smart play/saving your ult. Most assassins now, have too many escapes for their damage. are just a few examples. To me an assassin is someone who risks their life to get one target and, like I said with talon, can only get out or get extra kills through smart play. A possible solution might be to decrease damage of those with more mobility, or to give mobility to those who don't have it (this would overall make assassins stronger and is therefore scary to toy with).

Wrong.

Talon R gives him stealth and sprint to get out once done. Khazix stealth has 3 charges. Ahri Dash has 3 charges. Katarina E reset once shes done. Akali has her W and 3-charge dash Zed Leblanc has their R/W respectively.

The only assassin without a 'FREE' escape is Kassadin and Fizz who have to withhold one of their spell just to get out later.

ModAcademy KaynJun 5, 201510 votes

Yep, have fun trying to get in to kill the carries without using your ult as Talon.

Of course that is if you were dumb and not using your team to iniate first then go in.

LlaniteJun 5, 20155 votes

Same logic applies, it's impossible to kill anyone as Fizz since he has to withhold his E to escape. Talon only sacrifice 50% of his ult dmg (which is 15% of his total dmg output?) to leave nicely.

EVERYONE has a mean to escape, even support and adc, it's your choice to blow it for dmg and die, or use it intelligently to escape. None of which has anything with champion's design. Would Vladimir considered to have no escape since he has to blow his W for some dmg?

Kat/Fizz/Akali are genuinely risky assassin who commit succeed-or-die style, if Zed R is 10/10, Talon R is 7/10 in term of safety.

LuggJun 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

it's impossible to kill anyone as Fizz since he has to withhold his E to escape.

Please tell that to all the Fizz's I see getting 30+ kill games lately.

Byakuya KuchikiJun 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Please tell that to all the Fizz's I see getting 30+ kill games lately.

ill just tell them good job on knowing your elo doesnt know how to deal with fizz properly. autoattack the shit out of him in lane if ranged stop letting him level 2 cheese you bait his e at level 2 if it looks like he wants to realize his e is a 4th of his mana pool if he autos a minion and the auto doesnt instakill it he pushes the wave hard because of w passive hes the weakest mid laner early game

KanzlerJun 5, 20154 votes

Probably because you're bronze

SmokinSickStyleJun 5, 20152 votes

Fizz is AP, he goes in, using all of his abilities, including E, he then Zhonyas and E's away.

Talon can't do that or any other AD anyway.

LlaniteJun 5, 20152 votes

His E has 8s CD, minus 0.75s invulnerable, 2.5s Zhonya, he still has to wait 5.25s before being able 'to E away', if someone survives that long right at your face, with no spell or defense mechanism, you need to reassess your carries's capability.

Talon E in, pull all his spells then ult and run away, no risk or whatsover taken, none of the spells are dodge-able or bodyblock and the entire combo can execute under 0.5s.

Who is safer?

SmokinSickStyleJun 5, 20153 votes

Are you really arguing about who's safer between Talon and Fizz?

REALLY?

First of all Fizz's E is 8s CD WITHOUT CDR.

I've seen many going for Lucidity boots, with blue buff and mastery he has 30% so it's alot shorter and by the time you can target him again he can easily E away, people gapclose with E after ult so the few seconds left are because when he gets down he W+Q+Zhonyas and when it finishes he has E again.

If Talon is safe LeBlanc is balanced.

Try to use ult as escape with Talon, first of all ina teamfight red upgraded trinkets are gonna make your stealth useless, second, you are missing a portion from your burst, that is coming from a ULTIMATE so it deals quite alot of damage.

Talon is a suicide bomber that can kill one target and severely damage other around and unless his team is ahead he's gonna lie there waiting for CD because he has no escape and he's most likely gonna die.

LankPantsJun 5, 20155 votes

Talon ults, drop a pink, he's now dead as hell.

LlaniteJun 5, 20152 votes

He still has a sprint that makes him as fast as udyr. Counter-able escape is still an escape.

doublelift fgJun 5, 20152 votes

how? udyr has 3 charges of passive+ E giving him 24 bonus ms and 35% bonus ms

talon has 40% bonus ms and udyr takes ms quint

flibitydooJun 5, 20155 votes

{quoted} The only assassin without a 'FREE' escape is and who have to withhold one of their spell just to get out later.

Rengar ? Pantheon ? Twitch ? Diana ? Fiora ? Nocturne ?

Also Akali dashes are enemy target only. arguing that she can use it to escape a fight is like saying Yasuo has a dash for escaping (he does not, which is why is winrate is so sucky, cause everyone ganks his lane til the cows come home since yasuo has no reliable escape).

Also Kassadin is basically Ahri but with infinite ult charges And Fizz 's E can be as low as a 5 second CD, 1.75 seconds of which Fizz will be untargetable. It is highly likely he just troll poles his way after finishing off his target.

LlaniteJun 5, 20152 votes

All 6 are bruisers and don't build 100% glass.

Akali can charge into a low-risk target then W and run, with good position, she can even W into a jungle camp then R towards it. Harder than Talon's for sure, but still an escape.

Fizz E has only 8s CD, yes, but can you survive 6 seconds in the mist of the fight without any spell or defense? Adc can easily pull 1k crit late game at 2 attacks per second, apc can do as high as 3000 a combo @500 AP, all of which will delete him in a blink. Same thing applies for Kassadin who generally has more room (R 3s CD) but still risky nevertheless.

Buttigieg 2020Jun 6, 20151 votes

Twitch Fiora are not bruisers. I play rengar with item 3074 item 3142 item 3035 item 3158 item 3031 and item 3046 but i think that's just me.