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The ranking system is broken

Hurricane Munroe··40 votes·16,598 views

I know we hear about this from different players but it really needs to be addressed. The biggest issue lies whenever you get to a point where you lose more LP than you gain. The common response is win more. Well I have gone on winning streaks and have a positive winning record and there is no change. Once you get in the hole you are stuck in the hole. You simply move back and forth between being promoted and demoted. The issue is that you can win four games in a row and almost lose EVERYTHING you've gained if you lose twice. This is incredibly frustrating as it makes climbing nearly impossible. I know for whatever reason this is what Riot wants but it feels incredibly unfair to those of us not in gold and beyond. This is making the game virtually unplayable and not fun. I don't want to be rewarded with logos and banners and bullshit. I want to be rewarded by seeing myself make some actual progress!

65 Comments

Anivia Hentai7 votes

67% Winrate. win +18 loss -22

[sg-zephyr]

Farm With Jayce1 votes

I dont believe that, show pic.

Eonslegacy1 votes

at one point i had a winrate of 45% and won 24 per win. So thats fun. Just matters when your wins occured not how many occurred. Rito logix

Agapejp5 votes

My first season to play in league, and got every lane placed in Iron 2.

I have only focused on bringing my top up to gold 4 and left the others.

Lane rank disappears, I'm placed in gold 4.

Wins : 12 ~ 14LP

Loses: 20 ~ 22LP

win 4 in a row and lose 2, I'm back to 0 lol. What's the problem???

mack91124 votes

But if you are losing more lp than gaining its because you have lost a lot to put you in that position

5050BS2 votes
  1. Diamond player winning 14 Losing 24 stops playing and loads up Smurf
  2. Diamond player is now playing G2 games and Gold players are losing because they are playing vs Diamond players
  3. Gold players are Demoted and are now Silver so Silver players are now playing vs Gold players and losing
  4. Silver players are now demoted and are now Bronze players

Throw in that some Diamond players Smurfs dont even make it to Gold and so Silver and Bronze is even more fuked up

All because Riot took a massive shit on the system with how they handed Positional Rank and how they tried to "Merg" the system back.

S9 is Royaly Fuked up.

mack91122 votes

Ya I can’t argue that they tried to fix the game with positional ranking but it messed the game. I’m a plant layer stuck in gold stomping games till I get back in gold but you gotta appreciate that riot is trying to fix matchmaking

Kai Guy1 votes

Murder, I want you to think a bit about what your saying here.

Looking at Lol Graphs. Right now Diamond accounts for 3.88% of the games players. Gold alone represents 25.31%

Please think for a moment what it looks like to be outnumbered 5 to 1. Make any visual image you want for this. 5 Shiny gold folks and 1 glittery Diamond player. Now I want you to multiply this by a few hundred or thousand people.

Do you see the issue with your statement yet? Is it unclear that possibly diamond players are not a majority or statistically significant number in gold MMR? Your claim is they are and thus they shove enough players out of gold to become statistically significant enough to shove players out of Silver. To get shoved out of silver requires Bronze MMR to be affected by this as well.

This is assuming that literally every single player in diamond is actively smurfing and not playing games on their main. Lets put this into perspective. Your claiming that 3.88% of the players are making a clear and measurable impact on the remaining 82.6%

The claim is that roughly 1 in 5 games in gold having a potential smurf is enough to kick enough players down the ladder they demote... and then get stuck being demoted long enough to actively shove down silver players. And that's assuming 100% of Diamond players all start smurfing, exclusively in gold, Full time.

I want to say it again, think about it. Is this really something you want claim?

Eonslegacy1 votes

3.88% times 9 is the chance you have one in your game assuming you arent one. That would assume all ranks are equally as screwed up and probably an exaggeration, but it implies almost half the games are affected. Assuming less games, would still be above 20 or so% messed up by this. The problem is that the K factor slows down at all. It scews ranked progress one way or the other, keeping people too high or too low. It doesnt need to slow down. Dramatic rank changes would be fine on loss or win streaks. The only reason it slows down is so people that go on lucky 10 game winstreaks dont just stop playing league to keep their rank. Because in the current system theirs no reason to try to get higher, because your skill doesn't determine enough of the games to make you feel like getting better will make you climb higher than his lucky 10 in a row did without SIGNIFICANT improvement. Assuming gold impacts silver, thats 25% chance per person for 9 players. Now again golds are usually matched with golds so this is gonna be much lower, but its still MASSIVE. I get matched with silvers after 2 6/7 game winstreaks, because i got thos after a 2 4 game loss streaks and have a ngative winrate, yet i forced myself into gold by winning so much that my 12 lp gains was enough to get back to gold and win through promos. I have NO REASON to keep playing because even if i maintain 70% winrate I will get demoted.

Kai Guy1 votes

Thought i was clear that 3.88% represents a ridiculously unrealistic assumption. That all Diamond players are still active, online, qued up, on a gold smurf and there are not players with multiple accounts in diamond. There would be 0 people in diamond que or on a diamond account to make this value happen.

If you used a Binomial formula I believe it looks like this when filled out for the values of 5 games and 4% odds. (5÷1)×0.04^(1)×(1-0.04)^(5-1)=0.169869312 . Its possible I Errored in filling out the variables properly, feel free to check the math and get back to me if I derped the variables.

Honestly theres a lot of extra steps and assumptions and the above generated values are made with Bullshit unrealistic values. The numbers I checked when rounded and aberrated are result in **roughly 3% odds a match Is decided because the enemy team had a smurf. **so 3 per 100 matches.... but.... that's a really misleading number and I want to be clear on it not remotely representing an accurate expectation for the game.

Remember we are looking for the possibility for the smurfs to impact the 1 consistent player. Its not total # of matches impacted. Its the odds of Player A's games being **negatively **impacted.

Also. Lets be honest that the math I used is bad btw. I did not account for the Adjustment of % values for population size. I don't know a site that tracks population and rank distribution on a daily biases and I don't have access to riots numbers or their API personaly. I do hope you wont hold this agent me because ultimately the fundamental assumptions that smurfs would be so common they make an impact exclusively on 1 MMR range is pretty fucking stupid.

I was clear with what slanted my values, I don't mind that its a bit Biased to support my point because there's no accurate values generated from inaccurate assumptions.

The argument to claim there are enough smurfs in gold to demote a player to silver is just trash. Especially when you consider that MMR is whats used by MM not the Title. If the population size and skill gap grew to a point that Gold now is represented by the skill of what used to be diamond then inherently the MMR system would redistribute lower skill players down, but... that's its job? Sort the ranked ladder by Probability to win Vs players. All ladder movement is done to reflect the closest representation of your average to reflect when your in a range your at or near 50% odds.

If the population becomes a majority where your now a minority and getting Stomped… then its working properly to move you way from that range. This realistically can happen in situations where some one loses their ability to play in a class interval. Like if a OTP gets their main reworked and sucks at the rework, cant play anything else as well as their old main? That dude can and should sink. If some one buys a boosted account? Can and should happen.

Next up.

The problem is that the K factor slows down at all. It scews ranked progress one way or the other, keeping people too high or too low. It doesnt need to slow down

Lets look at the OG Arpad Elo Formula. Rn=Ro+K(W-We). This is 1v1 chess adjustment. Behold! K factor. Why is K a variable if not to have Variance? What K does is track system uncertainty. A player at 100% win rate out of 1 game is not as impressive as a player at 99% out of 100 games. There is nothing in K or MMR that screws progress in any direction. The results are from match results. People seem to think some how the systems looking to lock you into 50%. when realistically its goal is just to give you a raiting that generates 50% results. When your not near that? your raiting changes to reflect the gap in expectation V reality. Climbing is just expectations not matching reality so you gain points until the two are more in line. Same for sinking.

What high K does is help lower calibration time. Early trends when impacted by luck are covered by large numbers in the end, so you just see the extreme cases where a high K account that has impact get moved more rapidly into a range you find their probability and results be more in line. Its needed for 1v1, its needed for 5v5 with RNG teammates even more, because you do not want clutter. It helps keep folks out of a range off luck by having slowdowns, reduces the impact high uncertainty accounts make on low uncertainty accounts by allowing it to be a variable. The main Error you see people make is the assumption that you can treat a Teams K variable as an average or the same value when its RNG teammates. K is how you protect account raitings when there is uncertainty gaps and thats why you track it by player.

It absolutely needs to slow down, you can also have triggers on a MMR system where it speeds up. Like a soft reset.

I have NO REASON to keep playing because even if i maintain 70% winrate I will get demoted.

No you wouldn't. Don't be dramatic. Your MMR would increase, maintaining 70% would adjust probiblity expectations and your account would shift to the proper range. It takes a massive MMR gap to demote from divisions 4 and last time I checked Riot literally sends players a warning alerting them that they are at risk of dropping down a tier. So as your MMR is always a net gain at 70% this is in effect impossible to achieve.

Your rating is built on a probability model. The formulas run the same for everybody, despite the # of variables the rules are universally the same.

Eonslegacy1 votes

No, sadly it would increase really really slowly. in fact it would take 100 or 200 games for your MMR to increase high enough to change rank if youd played for 400 or so games already even at 65% winrate and thats assuming you can maintain that winrate as it increases through the trolls and what not that would tilt you. You math does NOT account for the people who get mmr DRAGGED up by the smurf, or MMR dragged DOWN by the smurf ona per game bases, ESPECIALLY those with the K factor NOT reduced yet. Those 9 other players are in ranks they dont belong. mmrs they shouldnt be in yet. That combined iwth the 3% per game per rank, results in 9 x 3% 27% or so people getting rank moved by smurfs. Each player that plays directly after that game, that has a person from that game in their rank now, may either have a worse teammate than they should fairly be put with, a better teammate that makes the game unfair for the other 5 enemies, or so on. It starts a landslide effect. Newer accounts(aka smurfs/ newer joining players) suffer the most from this. This destroys ritos new player base as its SUPER unfun to join league with this kinda crap. It ultimately affects every single player when a smurf is made. It might be a really really small amount, but it does affect everyone. So while you might not suffer directly from having faker destroy you in silver, you probably did from faker destroying the guy on the enemy team who was in is first 10 placements and lost the first 1 simply because he was vs faker. Also i have a 49% winrate or so, i achieved a 70% winrate on my Kennen gameplay and spammed it to get to gold. My mmr is lower than gold or right at it, if i lose i lose 21 lp, if I win I win 12, if i maintained 66% winrate winning twice per loss id gain like 2 lp, if i ever lost twice in a row id have to win 4 in a row to compensate, if i where to win those 4, id have to also win 2 more, before i lost to keep that lp. If I did not, and that happened to many times I would demote. End of story. It already happened once. So no. The probability model increases way to slowly for accounts that dont just spam games out for it to feel like a good thing. and is WAY to dramatic early. It honestly makes smurf accounts feel more rewarding than main accounts. Each win from a NON troll source gives way more mmr and lp. Each loss from a troll source is MASSIVE tho. But if trolls are reduced to a really small amount, like you said, and dont affect mmr overall, then making a new account is the fastest way to climb. As winning 10 games yileds 100 games of mmr early. Outside of those that are so far up rank that the K value falls off before you can get there. ITs less a math thing and more a feel thing. Humans arent robots, we dont grind 99k games before we decide if something is balanced or fair.

haaaaaaalp4 votes

Climbing is never impossible unless you simply aren't good enough to do it. If you are losing more lp than you gain, it simply means that the gap between your mmr and the cutoff for the next division is larger than 100. If you are good enough to get to the next rank, you will be able to sustain a high winrate until your mmr hits the next cutoff. If you aren't, then you don't deserve to climb higher until you get better.

The most common thing limiting a player from climbing is their own skill.

iDarkWind1 votes

Except that in Diamond that doesn't happens and that's because there are so many people hardstuck there. I was Masters and got demtoed from Inactivity and now I am literally Hardstuck D2 because I need to many games to actually climb that's insane.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

{quoted}

Except that in Diamond that doesn't happens and that's because there are so many people hardstuck there. I was Masters and got demtoed from Inactivity and now I am literally Hardstuck D2 because I need to many games to actually climb that's insane.

No, they just redefined what each diamond rank means when they did a partial reset. Diamond now is what masters was at the start of the season.

iDarkWind1 votes

It isn't true. Diamond has always been like this where you even if you maintain a decent win rate you literally have to go on a win streak to upgrade to other division wich is an absurd. At the moment if I win 3 games in a row and after that I lose 2, I'm back to where I was and that discourages any player to try to rank up after hitting Diamond.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

{quoted}

It isn't true. Diamond has always been like this where you even if you maintain a decent win rate you literally have to go on a win streak to upgrade to other division wich is an absurd. At the moment if I win 3 games in a row and after that I lose 2, I'm back to where I was and that discourages any player to try to rank up after hitting Diamond.

That all depends on where mmr cutoffs are set for each division. The cutoffs were intentionally raised so that players who were masters early in the season got pushed into diamonds because a few streamers complained that it was too easy for people to get into masters back in January. That is why it takes so many games at the moment to rank up in diamond, people asked for masters mmr to be higher.

iDarkWind1 votes

We're not talking about the placements LP gains. We're talking about the fact that how you hit Diamond it's a big pain to climb because you literally win 15 LPs and lose 20.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

{quoted}

We're not talking about the placements LP gains. We're talking about the fact that how you hit Diamond it's a big pain to climb because you literally win 15 LPs and lose 20.

The lp gains and losses in diamond right now are a direct result of riot increasing the mmr bar to get to masters after the reset. A few streamers qq’d it was too easy to get to masters so riot decided to significantly raise the bar for mmr across diamond and masters. As a result, a large part of diamond now represents would have been masters early in the season. This in turn means that accounts in diamond will have low lp gains and high lp losses until their mmr hits the new bar for masters.

Remember, lp gains and losses are determined by how far your mmr is to the cutoff of each rank. When the mmr cutoffs move up, lp gains decrease.

Mathgodpi3 votes

{quoted}

Climbing is never impossible unless you simply aren't good enough to do it. If you are losing more lp than you gain, it simply means that the gap between your mmr and the cutoff for the next division is larger than 100. If you are good enough to get to the next rank, you will be able to sustain a high winrate until your mmr hits the next cutoff. If you aren't, then you don't deserve to climb higher until you get better.

The most common thing limiting a player from climbing is their own skill.

If my MMR is in the toilet, then why am I seeing smurfs on the enemy team on a regular basis? https://i.imgur.com/u1iNacH.png

5050BS2 votes

Because HUGE swaths of Diamond and Plat players are hard stuck and so are loading up their smurfs to even play.

Riot ruined all of Ranked this season but wont restart to to fix it. Just For Challengers and Master players.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

GM player here, we're fucked up too.

Eonslegacy1 votes

that 10 kills karthus game is why im not even gonna chance tryna get my mmr fixed, ima let myself be gold until season resets then deal with it XD. Carrying people that afk and int just isnt possible, and being 2 and 3x punished for it isnt worth the risk.

Boosted Bon0bo4 votes

100% Agree with you on this one. I am currently S4 and have been for close to a month now. I am unable to even get above 40LP because it takes 4 wins to reach that. Where I am losing 21LP and winning 12LP. It's utter horse crap of a system. I placed bronze 1 in my placements. Climbed to silver 4 and had a bad day of games and now I am stuck. YOU CAN NOT TELL ME THAT IT IS REMOTELY POSSIBLE TO CLIMB OUT OF THIS UNLESS YOUR A PRO. 2 GAME WIN STREAK IS = TO 1 LOSE in LP. I am so fed up with this system I am barely motivated to even play ranked anymore because I know its pointless because I am getting nowhere. Also, for anyone who is saying maybe I don't deserve to be in silver then your wrong. I am getting into games with iron 1's, 2's and bronze players AS A SILVER PLAYER. Its utter freaking BS. They need to rework this system. It is way to punishing and leaves no room for coming back. I have a friend who is silver 4 that gets 35 LP for a win and loses 6LP. RIOT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE FIX THIS DAMN SYSTEM. Silver is an elo hell. People that I get put with either don't care about their rank enough to try in games and not feed/troll or have no sense of map awareness. You get teammates picking champions they have 0 mastery in ranked games or getting secondary roll and because someone wont trade with them they instantly afk or int. This may seem like I am complaining just to complain but I love this game and I cant stand making no progress. It frustrating and not fun in its current state with this system.

jng dif victim3 votes

yea i fell ya . u win 2 and u lose one but it seems u won 1 and u lost 2. pretty unfair

eunekid4203 votes

[deleted]

draco77777772 votes

Is this a smurf account you're commenting from? Otherwise I'm kinda confused how a Lvl 27 understands that it takes "like nothing" to reach diamond. Even so, an understanding of the basics can only get you so far. If it was that simple and easy, a lot more players would be plat/diamond, that's for sure.

edit: downvotes cause im right ? lol not tryna be toxic its just hard to believe, interesting you deleted the comment too, oh well

iDarkWind2 votes

Hell nah. He's clearly a smurf from challenger to say that getting Diamond is so easy.

zPity3 votes

The problem with the "always get more LP" on the ladder is rather simple. If everyone was a "winner" and had "fair lp gains" (even when playing above their mmr) the ladder would be in piss poor shape. There would be huge bubbles of players with a monumental variance in skill and then you guys would complain even more than there are "feeders" on your team (see diamond 4 currently).

Diamond 4 has a mix of players who are holding onto their rank (only playing when decay is going to proc), a group of players who are way better than d4 (the good old ranking smurfs) and players who legitimately want to be there. So, if you were in d4 (top 2% of players by the way), you get 13 LP and lose in the 20s. If Riot were to just "fix" the lp issue and let them all gain 20 lp per win and lose 20 lp per loss guess what! This would just happen in diamond 3 or diamond 2.

The point is, win-rate is not always the best indication of your lp gains. Neither is streaking wins anymore (because the ladder was expanded two tiers (iron + grandmaster) which reduced the effectiveness of streaks (because the ladder is longer).

Riot might need to consider being slightly more transparent about what your MMR is, and what the average MMR of your opponents are, to quickly gauge the health of your climb on the ladder (however, if they release any of that, 1,000,0000 x 10^9 support tickets are going to be written in because players just "don't believe they are that bad")

p.s. i'm bad and okay with it.

5050BS1 votes

That is what we have not. Their system is completely broken.

Snowy Neko3 votes

I just want it to be known, that I climbed to diamond 4 before getting stuck for a bit with only 6 played games in diamond and then went on a 13 game winning spree only getting 20lp a game at best with the average of 15lp per win. What is this?

avatarkai3 votes

All games in d4 u win 13-14 yet always lose 19 its hell here

Ragnaveil3 votes

This isn't just a low elo problem, this also an issue in Diamond. It needs to be fixed pretty badly.

5050BS3 votes

Its a systemic flaw in the programming.

Riot really needs to fix it. The longer they dont the more Smurfs and Trolls and Scripters will play creating a cascading effect that WILL ruin the game completely.

Saevum2 votes

Ok, i think you need vacations buddy, you just crossed the paranoia-hyperbole line of sanity into insanity.

Kai Guy1 votes

Nah, Murder just needs 26 back to back wins to fix his MMR and win% back to 50% And to make less unsubstantiated claims.

Fella Air1 votes

who?

Fella Air2 votes

This is what happened to me last season. I did eventually go on a twenty game winstreak by playing yuumi with my duo's fiora, and that cracked me out of it. Then I ran into an entirely different problem- Their "Self balancing" algorithm that requires you to lose an equal or greater amount of games after a winstreak. Because otherwise it wouldn't be fair to the other players. You're doing too well. You need to be nerfed.

I know it sounds weird but I'm not the only one convinced that matchmaking is intentionally designed this way. I've suspected it for several years and after watching many different videos on it, I'm convinced that riot does this so people don't feel like they've "won" or "mastered" the game and move on to another one. Additionally, I've started going several months at a time without playing this game and I've noticed that whenever I come back after one of those I win my first couple games pretty much no matter what no matter how rusty I am.

They're scared of permanently losing players to disinterest, and so they have to keep you on a treadmill of equal wins and losses. The matchmaking is not designed to facilitate you growing in skill and prestige, it's designed to just keep you on a ratwheel running in place. It's very disingenuous, and it's one of the many reasons that I'm switching over to the card game as my main riot experience for now. It's that, and the fact that people can still move and cast while stunned. Ezreal, Trist and Jarvan can still jump while rooted. The whole system just feels imprecise, and in such a skillbased game there's nothing less appealing.

Kai Guy1 votes

Quick Question before I respond in depth. If I asked you between Highest, Med, Lowest for the current season, which of those do you think your K factor is?

Zettaí nö Truth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XtqYJIlG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-04-06T06:54:56.406+0000)

Quick Question before I respond in depth. If I asked you between Highest, Med, Lowest for the current season, which of those do you think your K factor is?

So long story short if you want to be happier just uninstall?[zombie-brand-facepalm] ??

Sorostaran1 votes

Basically, your hidden MMR is what's important in the long run. It determines where Rito wants you to be rank-wise (which is why dodging troll games in Ranked helps you in the long run even though it's guaranteed LP loss). There are several "feel" mechanics in Rito's rank system which cause your hidden MMR and your rank to diverge.

If your hidden MMR is higher than the "intendned MMR" for your current rank, then you gain more LP in wins than you lose in losses; if your hidden MMR is lower than the "intended MMR" for your current rank, then you lose more LP in losses than you gain in wins.

Essentially, based on your hidden MMR, Rito doesn't think you deserve your current rank. Your LP gain/loss will level out when:

  1. You fall back to a rank more commensurate with your hidden MMR.

  2. You prove Rito wrong by improving your hidden MMR (or, as you say, WIN MORE).

[sg-soraka]

Hurricane Munroe3 votes

I understand this mechanism but I have gone on extended win streaks only to see my LP win/loss gain rate remain the same or get worse. Whatever goes into MMR is certainly NOT just winning or losing and if it is then it's definitely not working as it should.

Kai Guy1 votes

Each game adjusts your MMR. Your starting MMR on a fresh account with 0 games is the same starting MMR as all other fresh accounts. Old accounts starting MMR value related to prior season and the soft reset. You can also make some pretty dramatic changes to your starting MMR during preseason.

End result your at first non placement game, your at your accounts "base" value for MMR. There is wiggle room, it might be high, might be low. Regardless you don't have to care about that. Instead You can make a rule of thumb now for your total MMR gains and losses by tracking the net result of your accounts matches in a que. Each win will add to your Base. Each loss will decrease from it. The exact amounts are variable because mmr is a variable system.

If your win streak does not counterbalance the # of losses on an account your not climbing, your returning to the starting value you had for your first game that season. As LP changes are slower then MMR adjusments if your win% starts bad your going to only be below your current Tier. If you start the season with a loss streak or run into some bad luck you have to recoup the MMR by matching it with wins. To climb you need to ultimately put more MMR on your account then is subtracted.

The nice thing about MMR systems is this can be done with anything over 50% wins. The down side is its gonna eat a lot of your time to make small %s matter. Riots system will thankfully play catchup if the MMR to Tier gap gets to large.

So you personally had a pretty nasty looking debt from the season start. Your currently sitting at basicaly 50% overall. You had a nice 10 game streak, you can see the impact from this on the average MMR for teams in your games. Prior to the streak you got placed in Division 2 and division 3 matches. After the streak your div 2 and div 1 average matches. If you keep playing MissFortune with your current win % your gonna be climbing pretty fast.

Your record right now stands at 60W 59L. To put this in perspective, if MMR Was a Static number of say 30. your net gain in MMR from every single match played this season is 30 MMR more then your Base value. Right now you should have no expectation to have climbed because your effectively only looking at a single wins worth of MMR. (honestly its probably less cuz many MMR systems for games like lol have the K factor in the MMR adjustment decrease with # of matches played with directly lowers the total MMR gains/losses per match.)

Hurricane Munroe1 votes

Thank you kindly for your explanation. However, even with this explanation I find it still does not explain the existing gap between LP won and lost with each match. According to what you said, presently, I shouldn’t expect there to be much of a gap at all in LP even if it doesn’t allow for climbing. However, my LP differential continues to be negative by a fairly wide margin despite the changes in my MMR and having a 50% win record. Many people say ignore LP but LP is the single most important factor to progression as without gaining enough you stay stuck! It is incredibly frustrating to play games and win 14LP and then lose one game and lose 20LP. The cycle of promotion and demotion is real and unlike some suggest its not about just winning more. Perhaps if they did away with LP and made MMR transparent there would be less frustration but right now it doesn’t make sense.

Kai Guy1 votes

I don't have riots system so all I got is a guess.

I feel the most likely culprit for this would be K factor slowdown. This would be the adjustment for an account changing so after X games your K variable gets lower. K is a variable that multiplies the MMR stake of a match. Thus having a Higher K = More MMR gains and losses. So if there was a slow down and If your losses > Wins when it lowers it takes additional wins to break even that's off how ever much K Riot shaved of. Thankfully the exact opposite is true for wins into losses.

There's also the bit where most MMR stakes are off system expectations vs actual results. Its compensation for uneven/unfair games when matchmaker give up and builds to be faster. Even with no slowdown if your luck sucked and the system made constant incorrect assumptions about your teams odds then youd be below your starting MMR,

Could be something completely different. I don't have riots system, I can honestly only make guess.

Now for a lot of functional MMR systems I can say that you can be below average tier with a 50% rate. You can above with a 50% rate. Yet you cant expect to see a dramatic climb or fall if you always averaged 50%.

Hurricane Munroe1 votes

And that I think is the issue. Dramatic falls are taking place and no gains at all. I would much rather be stagnant at 50% than losing progress where two wins are negated by one loss. The system as it stands right now is far too punitive to make the climb even remotely enjoyable. It is quite frustrating. If MMR is basically controlling where you even are or should be in the first place, why even have a progressive ranking system since it fights so hard to keep you progressing?

Z3SIeeper2 votes

The problem is moreso that the MMR is invisible to us now. OP.GG used to be able to show it to us but ever since the ranked changes at the start of this season that system has been gutted.

If we could atleast see our MMR, we could better understand why stuff like 4 wins 2 losses is setting us back rather than ahead.

Cuz I don't think they've actually touched the system at all besides reverting it to pre-positional.

Kai Guy1 votes

Getting a good guess on your MMR is not that complicated. Look at your # of games played. Subtract your losses from your wins. The fact MMR gains are a variable and we have 0 information on what Riots K factor looks like in their adjustment make it impossible to have a 100% accurate guess but lets walk thru some math so you can see why this makes a good rule of thumb for players.

Example. Starting MMR = 1450. Obeying the standard MMR rules so a Loss is a MMR loss. Win is a MMR gain.

Make a 4-6 record. Loss loss win loss win loss win loss loss Win. MMR gains are variable but they should not be all that dramatic in size. Lets turn this into numbers. Starting value 1450. Games from the season -15 -15 +18 -15 +20 -13 +18 -15 -13 +20. You will note that I made the wins always higher value then losses. Heres the players MMR progression. 1435, 1420, 1438,1423,1443,1430,1448,1433,1420,1440
The end result of the combined sum of the account is -10. If the MMR value was say exactly the same for each game? The end result is the account -30 MMR. If the Losses are valued higher then the wins? even higher MMR drop.

If we completely rearrange the wins and losses? Make it a "streak" 1 direction then the other? You get the exact same number.

Don't get it twisted game MMR systems are way waaaay more complex then what im explaining but the core concept does not drastically change. End of the day, starting value and its adjusted following the rules that Wins + lose -

Sorostaran1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurricane Munroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XtqYJIlG,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-04-07T01:40:49.399+0000)

I understand this mechanism but I have gone on extended win streaks only to see my LP win/loss gain rate remain the same or get worse. Whatever goes into MMR is certainly NOT just winning or losing and if it is then it's definitely not working as it should.

Win streaks don't necessarily bring your hidden MMR closer to your Rank; gaining more hidden MMR than you gain Rank does. Uninterrupted win streaks can actually make things worse. See, it all depends on how much Rank you are gaining relative to the hidden MMR you are gaining from the wins. How much hidden MMR you gain or lose depends on how likely MM thinks your team is to win based on you, your allies, and your opponents' hidden MMR.

Win streaks often happen when you get a sequence of games with many of them being lopsidedly MMed in your favor, for which you gain little MMR, not even worth the reduced minimum LP you gain for those wins, thus exacerbating the phenomenon.

[{quoted}](name=Hurricane Munroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XtqYJIlG,comment-id=000d00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T23:09:09.559+0000)

And that I think is the issue. Dramatic falls are taking place and no gains at all. I would much rather be stagnant at 50% than losing progress where two wins are negated by one loss. The system as it stands right now is far too punitive to make the climb even remotely enjoyable. It is quite frustrating. If MMR is basically controlling where you even are or should be in the first place, why even have a progressive ranking system since it fights so hard to keep you progressing?

Yes, it ultimately comes down to the question of why have a "progressive" ranking system instead of a transparent equilibrial MMR system. The short answer is to create the illusion of "progress" for players whose skills aren't actually progressing because players generally enjoy the feeling of "progress."

Mechanics such as seasonal resets and (failed) promotion series allow for the ephemeral illusion of progress even if you aren't getting better. Once you play enough, however, you eventually reach your equilibrium point. If you continue to play, you may luck far enough above your equilibrium point for some more feelings of progress, but then lucking out further becomes astronomically unlikely. The illusion of progress ultimately does not survive the reality that the "progressive" Rank system is not actually progressive underneath.

That is ultimately the cause of the stall: The "progressive" Rank system is not a progressive system at its core. Don't focus on grinding further. That's counterproductive once you have lucked way past your equilibrium point (as your LP gain/loss screams this fact in your face). Focus on improving your game if you want to progress further. Credit where credit is due though, the "progressive" Rank system has succeeded in lying to you about its "progressive" nature all this time, but now you stand close to the very limits of its power to obfuscate.

The only probable way forward for more progress is to prove Rito wrong about how good you are by being better than you have been.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

Thanatoszane1 votes

I have been dealing with same problem. I started LOL about 4 years ago and would not play ranked for almost a year till I felt confident to do fair. Finished bronze is 2017, silver in 2018, and gold in 2019. Thus I seem to gradually be doing better. Now opening season for 2020 I won 6 of 10 games and got placed to bronze 1. My problem is bad team mates , afk's, or just beginners not knowing how to play or pick champs well ect...and I know we all deal with it, but it's to the point I cant amke any ground and have dropped to bronze 3 fixing to be bronze 4. Point is, the matchups are unfair, the placements for new season is unfair and should be same rank you left off from prior season . If you was in gold, you have better chance not getting bad team mates, but to be in bronze and not be able to climb due to actual bronze or iron team mates in your game, then you are certain for failure and helpless to get away from bad teams to climb out of rut. I'll be first to admit I'm not best player and barely consider myself advantage. I too make mistakes and have bad games, but not every game. Honestly, I just want to quit and find a more satisfying game if these issues will never be resolved.....Oh, and I'm not just a whiny baby, I'm probably one of the oldest players in game at 50 years of age....Please help

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