Thornmill - The most worthless item in game

OmegaVAlpha·Apr 1, 2016·3 votes·1,405 views

Now forgive my comment if it makes anyone who loves this item offended.

However I cannot stand how worthless this is even against champs who ONLY auto attack. Why is it in the current state of the item that it manages to stop not a single auto attack champ at all?

I might be wrong here but wouldn't a tanky champion with this item stand a chance against someone who is auto attack heavy?

Guess ill stop playing around.

Why is it Xin, Yi, and any other auto attack champion can laugh at this item. Ment specifically to counter any auto attack champions? Why is it this item in its state is so worthless. That building it and being tanky on top. Does nothing to stop a auto attack champ? Or is Yi and Xin both ment to leave fights with 50% or more health even though they are having there damaged reflected right back at them?

Can someone explain to me this item or is it just that horrible?

27 Comments

Dominick DestineApr 1, 20163 votes

I somewhat tend to agree.

Thornmail needs a slight buff.

JesseyApr 1, 20162 votes

I feel letting Thornmill inflicts grievous wounds would make a bit better

J E B A ł T E DApr 1, 20161 votes

4% total healing reduced per stack adding up to a 40%, seems good and fair to me.

JesseyApr 1, 20161 votes

their no armor item that as grievous wounds why not put on thornmail just add 150 gold so it' sold 2500g not 2350.

redniwediSApr 1, 20162 votes

Back in the day Thornmail had a role in countering the life steal of auto attack champions. Today lifesteal has a role of countering Thornmail's damage. There are enough lifesteal items out there that give enough to make Thornmail's damage negligible that Thornmail isn't really a damage item anymore. If you want to build armor and have some damage on the side get Sunfire, at least it feels like it does damage.

Even so, Thornmail has a niche as a late game tank item when facing mostly AD teams. It doesn't do much early on due to how the damage scales, but even Yi has to respect it on a fully built armor tank.

Yosuke ApperuApr 1, 20161 votes

Chances are yi and xin aren't building glass cannon and have some mr in their somewhere. With yi, sated devourer damage coupled with his true damage.. and xin with his 3rd auto crit plus healing every two autos once sated. The item doesn't really work that good against them.

OmegaVAlphaApr 1, 20161 votes

Are you telling me a item ment to reflect Auto attack damage is not a good pick vs auto attack champions?

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

Thornmail by itself isn't the greatest item, but when paired with a full tank build it can be devastating. What a lot of people don't notice is that it returns damage based off the damage they deal BEFORE it's reduced by armor, so if you stack enough armor they end up hitting themselves for more damage than you take. Add a randuins to the build and any crit done to you is shrugged off while the enemy cries in the graveyard.

OmegaVAlphaApr 1, 20161 votes

So it basically requires you to build more items before becoming useful?

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So it basically requires you to build more items before becoming useful?

It has it's uses as a standalone item, it just gets a lot stronger the more items you have. Sort of like Infinity Edge or any other defensive item. I've seen thornmail rush work, but only against certain enemies like Yasuo.

JesseyApr 1, 20161 votes

I only rush Thornmail if I'm top vs adc top. you win lane but lose late game

JesseyApr 1, 20162 votes

crit and life steal what make it useless, starting off ok but fall off late game because any assassin's or adc's as crit and life steal to take back the dam that is deal from Thornmill.

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

Lifesteal is less effective vs heavily armored targets, I don't get what you're trying to say. Late game your lifesteal will only be healing for 30% of the damage you've built. Unless you stacked armor pen, then it's closer to 45%

You have 100 AD that crits for 150 damage against an enemy with 50% physical damage resistance. You end up up doing 75 damage and healing for 15% of it which is a total of 11 life stolen while the attacker is taking 15% of the 150 damage you wouldve taken if you had no armor which totals 22 damage reflected, the damage reflected also scales off your bonus armor if you just have thornmail thats an extra 25 damage so the new total is 47 damage reflected and 11 life stolen by the attacker. The total damage taken reflected would be 36 damage and the tank is taking 75 damage per hit. With no health or other defensive items the tank will eventually lose to the attacker if they have a decent health pool, but as you add more health to the tank it gets harder to compete.

OmegaVAlphaApr 1, 20161 votes

Even after reading this over. It still makes thronmill sound even more so useless. If nothing else it makes me think that If they have a yi or Xin. Insta locking a juggernaut is the only way to possible beat them. Just because of there broken state.

OmegaVAlphaApr 1, 20161 votes

So basicly. How to make Thornmill useful is to just be a Juggernaut. Build it then because tey are strong at the moment and can make up for there lack of damage.

And anyone else with it are just doing it wrong?

If any auto attack champ has any healing it counters it pretty hard or if they build lifesteal also makes it useless.

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

did you guys not read what I just wrote? in the scenario i posted you end up reflecting 47 damage, they heal 11. This is early game scenario the damage reflected only gets higher as the game goes on while the amount of lifesteal you're doing is getting reduced because the armor is negating it.

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

by the way xin and yi are probably the only champs that can compete with a thornmail user. Xin because he heals a lot and Yi because of his true damage.

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

So what you're saying is a champion designed to kill tanks shouldn't be able to kill tanks? Sounds like you want xin and yi to be useless

OmegaVAlphaApr 1, 20161 votes

Ill be honest.

I am not a fan of the Xin that can just flash into his charge into 3 hitting any adc.

I am most definitely not a fan of a yi or a Xin who can just charge into a tank, and kill him with in a matter of seconds and walk away like it was basicly killing a jungle creep.

However this post was made to talk about Thronmill. A Item made specificity to give tanks a chance against auto attack only champs.

You are rather smart so Ill put this one to you.

If a full build..hmm..Lets say Garen vs a full build yi fight happen. Who would win?

Now lets say Vi, or Voli, or any other tank who isnt a juggernaut vs a Yi. Who wins?

I have a strange feeling someone will bring up "You shouldn't fight you should run" or "Cc beats them easily". However this whole section is most likely just due to the fact of Sated / Rageblade being far to great right now and one of the few counters being worthless.

CTG SgtScootsApr 1, 20161 votes

Garen will win because he ignores 30% of damage taken for 6 seconds. He is probably the best champion with thornmail for that fact alone. The problem with what your asking is Yi is meant to be able to deal with these tanks in a 1v1 situation. He doesn't kill them fast but eventually he will come out ahead simply because he's able to ignore your armor with his True Damage and even then I believe the tank has the advantage as they usually have a stun or something to help reduce Yi's combat effectiveness such as Malphite's attack speed slow. I feel like Xin might be easier to deal with for tanks and might just end in a stalemate.

Tomo7182Apr 1, 20161 votes

Thornmail is a item you use for certain matchups like if your singed/rammus tanky toplaner and your verse a vayne or quinn top building thornmail first just stops them snowballing (like jesus im a quinn main and the enemy toplaner rushing that stuff is cancer to deal with). if they have armor tank busters why even think of buying it, if they have a yi or xin its better to build frozen heart for the attack speed decrease. unless your playing rammus, malphite or other top tanks i wouldnt buy it, (dont buy if your a tanky support its not worth, frozen heart and such are so much better for your team)

JesseyApr 1, 20161 votes

I face many top lane adc and your right it dose stop them but after that and mid-game come around when they build att speed, crit, and life stole that Thornmail is nothing more then just +100 armor with a useless passive unless your rummus or taric who make the item a bit better.

Tomo7182Apr 1, 20161 votes

but the more important thing is rushing it prevented them snowballing in the first place (which adc's need to do either snowball or farm), so they will either become that annoying little fly in teamfights with a odd 90 cs compared to a monster who stomped lane with a massive cs lead. If im verse an adc top i just farm up till i can get thornmail and then buy bamies cinder then do a mr item (this is my rammus top build vs adc's btw)

Thornmail does fall off late game when people build lord dominics regards but still thornmail is an underated item. 100 armor is useful for many champions that run in and tank everything while dealing alot of damage (singed,rammus,malphite) or most bruisers.

JesseyApr 1, 20161 votes

That is a good point but only adc your going to see top are Graves who more ad burst, Quinn is weak at start but when she get a few items their no 1v1 her, and Vayne same as Quinn but all she need BotRK and her true damage will be too much for thornmail.

AlwaysByMySideApr 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Now forgive my comment if it makes anyone who loves this item offended.

However I cannot stand how worthless this is even against champs who ONLY auto attack. Why is it in the current state of the item that it manages to stop not a single auto attack champ at all?

I might be wrong here but wouldn't a tanky champion with this item stand a chance against someone who is auto attack heavy?

Guess ill stop playing around.

Why is it Xin, Yi, and any other auto attack champion can laugh at this item. Ment specifically to counter any auto attack champions? Why is it this item in its state is so worthless. That building it and being tanky on top. Does nothing to stop a auto attack champ? Or is Yi and Xin both ment to leave fights with 50% or more health even though they are having there damaged reflected right back at them?

Can someone explain to me this item or is it just that horrible?

You're not meant to 1v1 Xin or Yi as a tank, nor should you be allowed to.

OmegaVAlphaApr 1, 20161 votes

Hmm...After reading this...

Thornmill Is only useful in early games to stop adc who go top lane. Thought it scales with more items it falls off late game. Its passive ability late game, which is were it should be the most important, falls off and becomes basically worthless.

The item does not allow anyone, except maybe Garen, to counter a auto attack champ expect in the early game.

So this whole point of these post was to prove that Thornmill is in fact worthless in any thing expect early game. It does not do its job because it does not help give a edge to those facing auto attack champs.

So I stand firmly by my statement. Thornmill is in fact the most worthless item in the game. Besides the 100 armor its passive might as well not exist.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 1, 20161 votes

Besides the fact that it deals magic damage, which is countered by Spirit Visage, which is core on those champions you mentioned? In Yi's case, he deals true damage, which isn't countered by Thornmail's armor. In Xin's case on the other hand, about 1/3 of his damage is actually magic damage, which, guess what, Thornmail's armor also doesn't counter.