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New Players Starting at Silver 2-4 MMR

naydoe··7 votes·2,776 views
zorplex - Summoner Stats - League of Legends

I have been playing league for about 10 months now and season 7 was my first season. I got placed bronze 1 when i finished my placements last season and right now I have climbed to Silver 1. I know this may not be an issue for higher elo players (Gold/Plat+) but for me and my friends its a very tilting and frustrating thing that seems to happen way too much. I will queue up for ranked with my friend who is also silver one and it feels like once a day or every other day I get someone who is lvl 30-40 and has never played ranked before on my team. I'm not talking about people who are just playing bad or having a bad game but people who are obviously new to the game and haven't the slightest clue of what is going on. Most of the time these players are jg/support which right now are quite strong and important roles in the game. And most often than not the player with just feed over and over again and cost us games. I am not writing this as a rant or anything I really just want to know if there is a reason that a player who has never played ranked before and lost all of their normal games they have played (yes this was one player, linked above) can have the same MMR as me and my friend. I personally think that someone who is that new to the game should be placed in bronze mmr and be with people who are just as confused about what they are doing. I just don't see how it can be fair to have someone with the game knowledge of a bot be on my team and the other team have gold players. Any feedback/responses would be appreciated.

54 Comments

HouseOfSin5 votes

You wanna know the worst part? He's going 1/1/0 in bot games and he was placed in Silver 4. I mean, I got placed in Silver 5 even though I did one Baron Steal, 2 Full Charm-Knockup combo (Rakan) which won me the teamfight, and then I see this guy that fed all his placement games and got placed in Silver 4... Jesus, I hate myself.

HouseOfSin2 votes

{quoted}

You wanna know the worst part? He's going 1/1/0 in bot games and he was placed in Silver 4. I mean, I got placed in Silver 5 even though I did one Baron Steal, 2 Full Charm-Knockup combo (Rakan) which won me the teamfight, and then I see this guy that fed all his placement games and got placed in Silver 4... Jesus, I hate myself.

At this point, i can go Rakan Top in bot games and carry easy.

Bazooka Blade2 votes

dude i was gold 1 last season somehow started off in bronze1

naydoe2 votes

I just dont like how someone who has never played ranked can be in games and it happens every other day

ARAM ZooKeeper2 votes

They are called Autoloss randoms... riot refuses to fix it and the nerds refuse to admit its a thing

Subdue1 votes

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works. Most players are average, which means they'll basically stay wherever they enter. In this case, that's silver. If they entered in Gold, then Gold would be where average players would stick. That you ended up in Bronze in your first go means in your first go, you were below average. Now that you've gotten better, you're average.

There's always going to be some volatility where people enter the system, because they enter as unknowns. However, because of placement matches, they tend not to stick around as long, unless they actually belong there.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works. Most players are average, which means they'll basically stay wherever they enter. In this case, that's silver. If they entered in Gold, then Gold would be where average players would stick. That you ended up in Bronze in your first go means in your first go, you were below average. Now that you've gotten better, you're average.

There's always going to be some volatility where people enter the system, because they enter as unknowns. However, because of placement matches, they tend not to stick around as long, unless they actually belong there.

idk how to properly explain this to you. but i'll at least try

WARNING: GIANT WALL OF TEXT AHEAD

if you are bronze.. you need to absolutely hard carry your feeding oppoents to get to silver.. and this is possible becuase MOST of the time.. your opponts are "bronze" so even WITH a lead gold they dont make good decisions.. and can easily be outplayed.

now you have finally suceeded into climbed out of bronze to silver. your oppoents are now silver. now your opponent are always good.. they still can make bad decisions.. but if you give them a massive lead on a champ.. they arn't likely to throw it.

now your not silver yourself.. your gold (but you just climbed out of bronze.) so with your skill level you can STILL easily beat the VAST majority of your lane opponents and silver players, but you dont always end up with a giant lead and somtimes you maight go even.. and in a bad case you might lose lane even if you dont feed them.

now... insert random fresh level thirty

ANY silver player is going to crush the hell out of them... that saidf silver player is now fed... now maybe on even gold you could takedown said player.. maybe even if the enemy had a 1k gold lead you coudl take them down.. but your ally is a fresh level thirty. so he keeps throwing himself at the enemy... feeding them more and more kills, not thier fed.. you cant take them down. that lane then snowballs the other lanes. and you lose even if you were winning lane..

yes the AVERAGE player might me silver AFTER A YEAR OR TWO OF PLAYING!!! but NOT when the first start playing ranked

i personally was placing into silver ONE in seaosn 3 posseason after winning the first 8 ranked games in a row. i thought i was good.. i was GARBAGE i fed. i played like trash, i didnt ward.. i took cs as support, sure i knew my champions.. but i didn't know any match-ups, i didn't know what the enemy champs did.

and despite me trying to learn as best as i could i edned uyp going to sites like "mobafire" shudder for builds and skill order

now... back then i had the skill level of a bronze 3 or 4, (believe me i know their skill level, i been down in that hole before) yet riots system brilliantly placed me into silver 1..

I am EASILY silver 1 now... sure... 4 out of the five champs i play i woudl EASILY rate myself gold, arguably plat, but that woudl be pushing it becuase my click accuracy mechanics arn't very good. but knowledge wise, i would rate myself EASILY plat.. probably diamond, if i wanted to push it i could even say master.. but there is no way i would ever reach that because my mechanics are bad, and unfortunately i am only getting older.

my point NO new player is a silver.. hands down.. no ifs ands or butts. and becuase of this silver is a hell to climb out of. sure if both teams are all silver with no new players.. its fine... but that happens like once every 10 games or so. normally 1-4 players out of the ten are fresh lvl thirty's with no game knowledge. and w/e has mroe of those new players... get flat out loses... nothing can be done

so yeah you CAN climb out of silver... if you have time play games nonstop.. if you have a plat- diamond skil level that you can crush silver opponents to match how fed your opponents get by stomping the new player. or if u just get lucky and dont get any fresh lvl thirties or you get less than them.

but the fact is winning the game is at LEAST halfway dependent on the team you were given and who has the new player.

sure you can climb but noy only is it slower becuase of random losses.. but those random losses then lower your mmr.

i was getting 29 lp per win and 12 per loss at the start of the season.. i quickly climbed to silver 4, i mad it to 99 lp silver 4 then for w/e reason i get hiut with a stream of bad luck, i get FIVE games in a row where i get afk+ feeders that are completely uncarryable, now i don't feel bad about, losing these games becuase there wasnt shit i can do to stop it. the first game was actaulyl a 3v5... but we sure as hell put if a fight before they won.

but evenuyll i win more.. before going on another random loss streak, due to shit teammates.. sure some losses were games competently winnable, but thats fine... what NOT fine is all the other losses i get from unwinnable games, and yeah i get free wins from it too. i can remember at least 2 free wins in the past week, where the enemy had the shit players. but its all rng... the issue is.. all this up and down from random wins and loses flattened my mmr... so now instead of getting +27-29 per win... im getting 19-22 per win and losing 16-18 per loss. this slows the climb even more.

the better your are thr fastert you climb sure... but that only affects that games you can actually effect the outcome of.

climbing in silver is basically a coin toss ion champ select to whoever gets the new player.. and sindce mmr does not take this into account... your stuck with what you got..

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

idk how to properly explain this to you. but i'll at least try

WARNING: GIANT WALL OF TEXT AHEAD

if you are bronze.. you need to absolutely hard carry your feeding oppoents to get to silver.. and this is possible becuase MOST of the time.. your opponts are "bronze" so even WITH a lead gold they dont make good decisions.. and can easily be outplayed.

now you have finally suceeded into climbed out of bronze to silver. your oppoents are now silver. now your opponent are always good.. they still can make bad decisions.. but if you give them a massive lead on a champ.. they arn't likely to throw it.

now your not silver yourself.. your gold (but you just climbed out of bronze.) so with your skill level you can STILL easily beat the VAST majority of your lane opponents and silver players, but you dont always end up with a giant lead and somtimes you maight go even.. and in a bad case you might lose lane even if you dont feed them.

now... insert random fresh level thirty

ANY silver player is going to crush the hell out of them... that saidf silver player is now fed... now maybe on even gold you could takedown said player.. maybe even if the enemy had a 1k gold lead you coudl take them down.. but your ally is a fresh level thirty. so he keeps throwing himself at the enemy... feeding them more and more kills, not thier fed.. you cant take them down. that lane then snowballs the other lanes. and you lose even if you were winning lane..

yes the AVERAGE player might me silver AFTER A YEAR OR TWO OF PLAYING!!! but NOT when the first start playing ranked

i personally was placing into silver ONE in seaosn 3 posseason after winning the first 8 ranked games in a row. i thought i was good.. i was GARBAGE i fed. i played like trash, i didnt ward.. i took cs as support, sure i knew my champions.. but i didn't know any match-ups, i didn't know what the enemy champs did.

and despite me trying to learn as best as i could i edned uyp going to sites like "mobafire" shudder for builds and skill order

now... back then i had the skill level of a bronze 3 or 4, (believe me i know their skill level, i been down in that hole before) yet riots system brilliantly placed me into silver 1..

I am EASILY silver 1 now... sure... 4 out of the five champs i play i woudl EASILY rate myself gold, arguably plat, but that woudl be pushing it becuase my click accuracy mechanics arn't very good. but knowledge wise, i would rate myself EASILY plat.. probably diamond, if i wanted to push it i could even say master.. but there is no way i would ever reach that because my mechanics are bad, and unfortunately i am only getting older.

my point NO new player is a silver.. hands down.. no ifs ands or butts. and becuase of this silver is a hell to climb out of. sure if both teams are all silver with no new players.. its fine... but that happens like once every 10 games or so. normally 1-4 players out of the ten are fresh lvl thirty's with no game knowledge. and w/e has mroe of those new players... get flat out loses... nothing can be done

so yeah you CAN climb out of silver... if you have time play games nonstop.. if you have a plat- diamond skil level that you can crush silver opponents to match how fed your opponents get by stomping the new player. or if u just get lucky and dont get any fresh lvl thirties or you get less than them.

but the fact is winning the game is at LEAST halfway dependent on the team you were given and who has the new player.

sure you can climb but noy only is it slower becuase of random losses.. but those random losses then lower your mmr.

i was getting 29 lp per win and 12 per loss at the start of the season.. i quickly climbed to silver 4, i mad it to 99 lp silver 4 then for w/e reason i get hiut with a stream of bad luck, i get FIVE games in a row where i get afk+ feeders that are completely uncarryable, now i don't feel bad about, losing these games becuase there wasnt shit i can do to stop it. the first game was actaulyl a 3v5... but we sure as hell put if a fight before they won.

but evenuyll i win more.. before going on another random loss streak, due to shit teammates.. sure some losses were games competently winnable, but thats fine... what NOT fine is all the other losses i get from unwinnable games, and yeah i get free wins from it too. i can remember at least 2 free wins in the past week, where the enemy had the shit players. but its all rng... the issue is.. all this up and down from random wins and loses flattened my mmr... so now instead of getting +27-29 per win... im getting 19-22 per win and losing 16-18 per loss. this slows the climb even more.

the better your are thr fastert you climb sure... but that only affects that games you can actually effect the outcome of.

climbing in silver is basically a coin toss ion champ select to whoever gets the new player.. and sindce mmr does not take this into account... your stuck with what you got..

Yea, this wall of text can really just be summarized as "I don't understand how the MMR system and the math behind it work."

Players must enter the system somewhere (Obviously). Most players are average (Again, obviously). Ergo, wherever players enter the system is where most players will stay. That means if Riot arbitrarily moved the new ranked player entry point to Gold, then most players would be in Gold. If they moved it to Bronze, most players would be in Bronze.

This effect is pretty easy to see when you look at the ranked distributions.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution

naydoe1 votes

I understand that it is based on averages, that makes sense. But I don't see how it's fair to silver players to have to be in a 4v5 every 10 games because one team has a new player. No new player is silver level. That's just ridiculous to think. I just dont get why Riot couldn't put the starting MMR at Bronze 1, at least then their tentative rank would be determined if they played well or not. I don't think it's fair to me to have a new player on my team and the other team have someone who was plat last season in my game. I don't see the balance there

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

I understand that it is based on averages, that makes sense. But I don't see how it's fair to silver players to have to be in a 4v5 every 10 games because one team has a new player. No new player is silver level. That's just ridiculous to think. I just dont get why Riot couldn't put the starting MMR at Bronze 1, at least then their tentative rank would be determined if they played well or not. I don't think it's fair to me to have a new player on my team and the other team have someone who was plat last season in my game. I don't see the balance there

Oh geez. Okay, let me try to phrase this a different way.

Your ranking is is entirely based on how you compare to other players. If players started in Bronze, then you, who is currently Silver, would actually be in Bronze too, because relative to the average player, you are average.

You may not feel like it's fair, but objectively speaking, that player who has just entered ranked is more likely than not about as good as you are.

naydoe1 votes

"You may not feel like it's fair, but objectively speaking, that player who has just entered ranked is more likely than not about as good as you are."

This is objectively not true. If you looked at that opgg that I linked originally. That was the support player placed on my team. He had lost every normal game he had played until his first ranked match and since has continued to feed mindlessly. I climbed to silver because I mechanically improved and my game knowledge improved. I play top lane and I continuously think about what counter match ups there are, the correct build path for the game, enemy champion cooldowns, how to use my flash and teleport effectively, how to play around objectives and how to shove and control waves based on my opponent. The fresh new player who has just hit level 30, is still going by the "Recommended" item list for the 450 champion they own, they do not understand how to correctly use their summs, they don't understand how to control waves, they don't understand how to trace a jungler through FOW and try to predict what each lane will do as the game progresses. That opgg I linked, that person has won 1 game in all of the games listed (last I checked), I have a 51% WR over the past 150 games I've played. I started this season in S4 and climbed to S1, this person was "dropped" into silver mmr because that is where riot set the bar and now has dropped down. I'm not trying to argue here but I really do not think that that person is as good as I am. That's just down right absurd.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

"You may not feel like it's fair, but objectively speaking, that player who has just entered ranked is more likely than not about as good as you are."

This is objectively not true. If you looked at that opgg that I linked originally. That was the support player placed on my team. He had lost every normal game he had played until his first ranked match and since has continued to feed mindlessly. I climbed to silver because I mechanically improved and my game knowledge improved. I play top lane and I continuously think about what counter match ups there are, the correct build path for the game, enemy champion cooldowns, how to use my flash and teleport effectively, how to play around objectives and how to shove and control waves based on my opponent. The fresh new player who has just hit level 30, is still going by the "Recommended" item list for the 450 champion they own, they do not understand how to correctly use their summs, they don't understand how to control waves, they don't understand how to trace a jungler through FOW and try to predict what each lane will do as the game progresses. That opgg I linked, that person has won 1 game in all of the games listed (last I checked), I have a 51% WR over the past 150 games I've played. I started this season in S4 and climbed to S1, this person was "dropped" into silver mmr because that is where riot set the bar and now has dropped down. I'm not trying to argue here but I really do not think that that person is as good as I am. That's just down right absurd.

This is just confirmation bias. You saw someone do poorly and went to check their level. Do you check everyone's level? Probably not.

This fresh level 30 did better then you in a game he played against you:

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=XiaAndyX

A player new to ranked isn't necessarily new to league. It takes almost 200 games to get to level 30.

naydoe1 votes

Yes I check every player I play against as I load in. And that game was only a loss because of a fed voli bear. Jax did nothing in that game. He inted the vlad 7 kills during laning phase. The jax was still going the reccommended build of hextech first item, he was completely unaware of probuilds or anything meta on jax. That's how I can tell he was a bad player, I also had more CS than him and more gold.

naydoe1 votes

also that jax didn't even think to build Executioners Culling into a vlad or any MR other than merc treads into veigar and vlad. his score is irrelevant because he was carried by a volibear

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Yes I check every player I play against as I load in. And that game was only a loss because of a fed voli bear. Jax did nothing in that game. He inted the vlad 7 kills during laning phase. The jax was still going the reccommended build of hextech first item, he was completely unaware of probuilds or anything meta on jax. That's how I can tell he was a bad player, I also had more CS than him and more gold.

So, the enemy team had a noob level 30 and carried him to a win?

That guy is at a 50% win ratio so far in your bracket.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=greatihmc

This level 37 held his own against a level 62 Victor in one of your games too.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

So, the enemy team had a noob level 30 and carried him to a win?

That guy is at a 50% win ratio so far in your bracket.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=greatihmc

This level 37 held if own against a level 62 Victor in one of your games too.

ok first off your a bloody fucking moron if you think levels mean ANYTHING past lvl thirty

levels were JUST FUCKING INTRODUCED, im sure there are people with more free time than me who started playing last last last year who are a higher lvl than me. yeah becuase the first FIVE YEARS I PLAYED, they didn't have this "level past thirty" thing

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Cheetah Nidalee3 votes

{quoted}

ok first off your a bloody fucking moron if you think levels mean ANYTHING past lvl thirty

levels were JUST FUCKING INTRODUCED, im sure there are people with more free time than me who started playing last last last year who are a higher lvl than me. yeah becuase the first FIVE YEARS I PLAYED, they didn't have this "level past thirty" thing

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

you lucky bastard... i had to go through riot's global underground mind wipe process to delete all game knowledge from my mind i obtained in every season prior to season 8... now i have to start re-learning the game from scratch.. how did you avoid this?

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

ok first off your a bloody fucking moron if you think levels mean ANYTHING past lvl thirty

levels were JUST FUCKING INTRODUCED, im sure there are people with more free time than me who started playing last last last year who are a higher lvl than me. yeah becuase the first FIVE YEARS I PLAYED, they didn't have this "level past thirty" thing

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

From the original post :

"I will queue up for ranked with my friend who is also silver one and it feels like once a day or every other day I get someone who is lvl 30-40 and has never played ranked before on my team."

There is the definition set by the original post for this discussion.

The person I linked is level 37 and hasn't played ranked in any previous seasons.

As far as I can tell he fully fits the description as set by the original post.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

Yea, this wall of text can really just be summarized as "I don't understand how the MMR system and the math behind it work."

Players must enter the system somewhere (Obviously). Most players are average (Again, obviously). Ergo, wherever players enter the system is where most players will stay. That means if Riot arbitrarily moved the new ranked player entry point to Gold, then most players would be in Gold. If they moved it to Bronze, most players would be in Bronze.

This effect is pretty easy to see when you look at the ranked distributions.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution

you don't seem to understand that a new player.. regardless of mechanical skill they might have.. has next to zero game knowledge. and therefore is bronze because they will mindlessly feed.

i have been in silver.. i have been in bronze..and i can tell you with absolutely certainty... the difference between a player who placed into silver and a player who climbed out of bronze is so large it would be laughable if it didn't ruin the game for silver players

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

you don't seem to understand that a new player.. regardless of mechanical skill they might have.. has next to zero game knowledge. and therefore is bronze because they will mindlessly feed.

i have been in silver.. i have been in bronze..and i can tell you with absolutely certainty... the difference between a player who placed into silver and a player who climbed out of bronze is so large it would be laughable if it didn't ruin the game for silver players

Oh I do understand that. What I'm saying is that the veteran silver player is not much better than the new player who placed into Silver. Here's how I know that:

Let's say that there were no other veteran Silver players in Silver, just you and a bunch of New to Ranked accounts. Under your premise, that those new players are way worse than veteran Silver players, you should win just about every game, because you're much better than everyone else. Right?

Well, obviously that's not a real scenario. The real scenario is that most Silver players are actually Silver veterans, and new players are sprinkled into the games. But here's the rub: if you're not the new player, then statistically the new player is 11% more likely to be on the other team. So if these new players are really dragging their teams down in Silver, you should expect an 11% boost to your wins, and while you may not see it in 1 or 2, or even 10 games, this effect should basically carry you right out of Silver over a large number of games.

But that's not what has happened, is it? In reality, you've spent almost 100 games in Silver in this season alone, and you've been in Silver since S5.

That basically means that objectively speaking, you are not better than the average new player.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

Oh I do understand that. What I'm saying is that the veteran silver player is not much better than the new player who placed into Silver. Here's how I know that:

Let's say that there were no other veteran Silver players in Silver, just you and a bunch of New to Ranked accounts. Under your premise, that those new players are way worse than veteran Silver players, you should win just about every game, because you're much better than everyone else. Right?

Well, obviously that's not a real scenario. The real scenario is that most Silver players are actually Silver veterans, and new players are sprinkled into the games. But here's the rub: if you're not the new player, then statistically the new player is 11% more likely to be on the other team. So if these new players are really dragging their teams down in Silver, you should expect an 11% boost to your wins, and while you may not see it in 1 or 2, or even 10 games, this effect should basically carry you right out of Silver over a large number of games.

But that's not what has happened, is it? In reality, you've spent almost 100 games in Silver in this season alone, and you've been in Silver since S5.

That basically means that objectively speaking, you are not better than the average new player.

yes.. MOST silver players are... like 80% of them.

the issue is there is TEN players in a game... so there is a pretty damn high chance that one or two (sometimes even up to four) are complete noobs. and ANY game they get put in is effectively unwinnable w/e team has more of them.

if you get both on your team... unless your bot lane and jungler happen to be crushing it... your screwed.. if you actaully deserve to be mid gold, you can climb at about a 60-70% winrate in the winnable games the issue is... that is the WINNABLE games. about 50% of the time you game is NOT winnable, (based on if their team got the new player or yours did)

and yeah you WILL eventaulyul climb given enough games.. but its literally hell trying to do so, becuase it takes so mnay games... and you can easily go from 99 lp to getting demoted in one bad RNG streak, (i proved this myself last saturday), and yeahj i climed back up.. got to 93 lp.. then rng gets be down to 0 lp again.

new players belong in BRONZE until they can climb out, becuase a new player and bronze player have effectively the same skill level, a new player and a silver player who climbed out of bronze, do not have REMOTELY the same skill level.

and the fact that they put new players in silver not only inflats the silver player number buy putting more people in... but my exponentially slowing down how long it takes to get OUT of silver.

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

I stopped reading after you said 80% of players are in silver. Where did you get this number? It's blatantly wrong, lol.

EDIT: I went ahead and got some more accurate values on rank distribution.

Challenger: 0.03% Masters: 0.04% Diamond: 1.4% Platinum: 7.4% Gold: 19.6% Silver: 48.9% Bronze: 22.5%

These may not be 100% accurate, and I also rounded everything under masters. It's a lot better than just "80% of players are silver hurdurr" though.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

I stopped reading after you said 80% of players are in silver. Where did you get this number? It's blatantly wrong, lol.

EDIT: I went ahead and got some more accurate values on rank distribution.

Challenger: 0.03% Masters: 0.04% Diamond: 1.4% Platinum: 7.4% Gold: 19.6% Silver: 48.9% Bronze: 22.5%

These may not be 100% accurate, and I also rounded everything under masters. It's a lot better than just "80% of players are silver hurdurr" though.

clearly reading isn't your strong suit.. as i didn't saying 80% of players are in silver.. i SAID 80% of the playter IN silver are NOT new fresh lvl thirties.

yes the your correct is stating that what you ASSUMED i said was wrong, except that's not remotely what i said.

so maybe if you actually payed more attention to what people ACTUALLY write, instead of going "oh i stopped reading after X" you might learn something. because clearly you never STARTED reading...

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

So I went back and read your post because you made a valid point here, and I was about to apologize, but NEVER did you make it clear that you meant 80% of players IN silver. So instead I'm gonna have a good laugh about how you claim reading isn't my strong suit when writing clearly isn't yours.

Also,

about 50% of the time you game is NOT winnable

*your

This is a crock of shit, lol. EVERY game, ESPECIALLY in lower ELO is very much winnable. I've said it before and I will say it again;

In solo queue ultimately your performance is what matters most. You don't play solo queue for good teammates. You play solo queue to improve your own play.

Having a teammate you perceive to be 'bad' is going to happen. It happens to everyone, get over it. Newer players are going to be introduced to ranked by being placed at the average, because by definition, most people will be average. (Average being around Silver 3-ish give or take)

so maybe if you actually payed more attention to what people ACTUALLY write, instead of going "oh i stopped reading after X"

All in all I think I was much better off not reading your poorly written and grammatically incorrect post, and I regret giving you the benefit of the doubt. Even though I have provided valid points and explanations for things you deem 'unfair' you'll probably still complain because you are hard-stuck mid-low silver and want some sort of excuse as to why you can't get out without accepting that you may need to work on improving your own game-play.

Cheers.

[sg-ahri-2]

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

So I went back and read your post because you made a valid point here, and I was about to apologize, but NEVER did you make it clear that you meant 80% of players IN silver. So instead I'm gonna have a good laugh about how you claim reading isn't my strong suit when writing clearly isn't yours.

Also,

*your

This is a crock of shit, lol. EVERY game, ESPECIALLY in lower ELO is very much winnable. I've said it before and I will say it again;

In solo queue ultimately your performance is what matters most. You don't play solo queue for good teammates. You play solo queue to improve your own play.

Having a teammate you perceive to be 'bad' is going to happen. It happens to everyone, get over it. Newer players are going to be introduced to ranked by being placed at the average, because by definition, most people will be average. (Average being around Silver 3-ish give or take)

All in all I think I was much better off not reading your poorly written and grammatically incorrect post, and I regret giving you the benefit of the doubt. Even though I have provided valid points and explanations for things you deem 'unfair' you'll probably still complain because you are hard-stuck mid-low silver and want some sort of excuse as to why you can't get out without accepting that you may need to work on improving your own game-play.

Cheers.

[sg-ahri-2]

... PERCEIVE? teammates as bad.

if they're a brand new player THEY ARE BAD!!!

im not going to bother looing you up because it doesn't matter.

and no I'm not "hardstuck silver" because i didn't even make ANY attempt to climb out of it seasons 5-7. i climbed back out of bronze to silver 5 or 4.. and i stopped playing ranked. if you don't believe me... check the dates of the ranked games in my match history.. you will likely notice a gigantic absence in me playing ranked game from about march /april to about December.

seaosn 5 it was becuase they removed nidalee from lane and i got pissed and boycotted league for 8 months until they released challenger nid skin seaosn 6... i botcotted ranked becuase of dynamic boost season 7.. i actaully had every intention of playing ranked but was unable to solve internet packet loss and ping spike issues until last last year after i moved.

season 8 i am again trying to climb yes, but i explained why its annoying to do so in my VERY long post that has the "warning wall of text".

im not "hardstuck" in silver the last season i actaully TRIED to climb out of was season 4 and i made it to silver 2, and back then i still didnt have even one TENTH the game knowledge i have today. (even if the game was more balanced back then)

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

No, I'm not going to bother looking at your past ranked games because I simply don't care. All I really needed was a quick glance to see you already have 80+ games this season with a 48% win-rate stuck at silver 4 0LP.

The 'I didn't try to climb' thing is an excuse, refer to the last paragraph of my previous message. "you'll probably still complain because you are hard-stuck mid-low silver and want some sort of excuse as to why you can't get out without accepting that you may need to work on improving your own game-play. "

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

No, I'm not going to bother looking at your past ranked games because I simply don't care. All I really needed was a quick glance to see you already have 80+ games this season with a 48% win-rate stuck at silver 4 0LP.

The 'I didn't try to climb' thing is an excuse, refer to the last paragraph of my previous message. "you'll probably still complain because you are hard-stuck mid-low silver and want some sort of excuse as to why you can't get out without accepting that you may need to work on improving your own game-play. "

ok if by "choosing to not play ranked games after i went for silver" the past 3 seasons is "hardstuck" by your own definition, then yes.. by YOUR definition i am "hardstuck". [zombie-brand-facepalm]

if you want to make up your own definitions for things sure

im sorry you feel like people are shit when they have trouble winning a game where and ally feeds the enemy 8 kills in 5 min im you think you think I'm bad sorry i have trouble carry 4v5 and 3v5 when i play a champion that is based on team co-ordination.

if a game is not winnable i dont feel bad for losing it, like you i play support, you can lead a horse to water... you can't make it drink... there happens to be a LOT more stupid horses down here...

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

No, my definition of 'hardstuck' is having a ton of games with a poor win rate. Which I believe is the general consensus on what hardstuck is.

And I never said you were shit, you assumed that. You're around the statistical average, that's not really bad, its average.

if a game is not winnable i dont feel bad for losing it, like you i play support, you can lead a horse to water... you can't make it drink... there happens to be a LOT more stupid horses down here...

I placed bronze 1 last season btw. Now I'm currently sitting at Gold 3. Because instead of focusing on how 'bad' my teammates are, I do everything in my power to give my team an advantage. Every game is winnable. Trust.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted} Every game is winnable. Trust.

no every game is not winnable, and my entire long post in this thread is explaining in detail precisely why not. im not going to waste time typing that again.

because you clearly didn't bother reading it the first time

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

And you are wrong, lower ELO is volatile and extremely unpredictable.

And no, I didn't bother reading past the part about 'now you're gold' or whatever because your points are weak and have zero merit. It is a useless giant wall of text that pretty much can be summed up as 'the incoherent ramblings of a salty silver player'.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

no every game is not winnable, and my entire long post in this thread is explaining in detail precisely why not. im not going to waste time typing that again.

because you clearly didn't bother reading it the first time

I think the one key fact that you are conveniently ignoring is that placed in the same situation as these new to ranked players, you fell like a rock straight into Bronze. How many games did that take?

So if these players have gone 10, 20, 30 games and haven't fallen like you did, that says something.

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

Wait what do you mean, lol. I placed bronze 1 my first season playing and climbed out ez. Yes, it says something. I am willing to learn and improve. I haven't been back in bronze since those placements.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Wait what do you mean, lol. I placed bronze 1 my first season playing and climbed out ez. Yes, it says something. I am willing to learn and improve. I haven't been back in bronze since those placements.

It wasn't your post that I quoted.

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

Oh, well the post was directed towards me. "in response to: TheUrbanKitsune" Sorry for misunderstanding but you replied to my comment.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

But that's not what has happened, is it? In reality, you've spent almost 100 games in Silver in this season alone, and you've been in Silver since S5.

That basically means that objectively speaking, you are not better than the average new player.

your rightm thats not what happened... i quite for 8 months in season 5 becuase they destroyed laning Nidalee in season 6 i rejoin with the release of challenger nid, but once i climbed back to silver i boycotted ranked due to dynamic boost, and reaching gold that season would mean nothing. season 7 the start of the season was fine i climbed back to silver, but then i had to move cross country.. and my new place had crazy internet issue (read as stupid high packet loss and lag spikes up to 600 ms every 20 seconds) that took me until about a month before the end of the season to resolve so i didn't waste time with ranked because unranked is so much more fun (because there is no stress) so season 8 is here.. i quickly climbed to silver 4. 99 lp.. before rng took hold.. now that we are further in the season the rng is getting worse. (it was MUCH easy to climb when at the start of the season there was higher elo players on both sides and people fed less). i still plan on reaching gold this season, but i have to start for a new job because the site I'm working at is getting shut down in a month.

EddardStark843 votes

This is absolute bullshit btw. Vet silver being the same as a fresh brand new player. My goodness...

naydoe3 votes

Thank you. Someone else who understands lol

naydoe2 votes

And this is exactly why I think riot should put fresh lvl 30s at bronze mmr and see if they actually can climb to silver after their placements. At least in my head this makes sense. but all of that text is exactly how I feel and I really just don't get the reasoning behind the silver 2-4 MMR on fresh players.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

And this is exactly why I think riot should put fresh lvl 30s at bronze mmr and see if they actually can climb to silver after their placements. At least in my head this makes sense. but all of that text is exactly how I feel and I really just don't get the reasoning behind the silver 2-4 MMR on fresh players.

yeah the most obvious solution is 50 lp per win 10 wins would then net you 50 lp bronze 1 if you cant CLIMB to silver.. you dont belong there.

this would fix the issue of silver and it would really cause an issue for bronze because, a new player IS bronze so both sides are going to have bad players. so you can easily match and beat any lead your opponents get, the new player also has a higher chance of not feeding because they arn't vs as good of player, and even if they do feed, it the person they fed likely is nearly just as bad, and you can still easily beat them.. even if somehow you could match said gold lead.

there is literally NO downside to this except how it would affect smurfs. but even they they would likely be placed into bronze 2 or 1, and would VERY quickly climb out. to silver in less than 20 games.

so there really is absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be done

i mean. come on riot... season 9 do a hard reset for gold and under, and a soft reset for plat+ like normal.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

I don't think you understand the point of bronze and silver.

Silver represents the average skill level of a fresh account just starting ranked. Bronze represents accounts which have proven they are worse than this average. Silver is not a rank that players need to "prove" they belong, it is used as a default zero point.

naydoe1 votes

I still don't believe that new players, regardless of if they are unknowns or not should be starting at silver MMR. Bronze 1, maybe because then how they play determines if they rise or fall. But look at it like this: Other competitive esport games have an MMR system that starts you at the lowest ranking tier. Ex: Rocket League Bronze is where you start when you go in with a fresh account, R6 Siege you begin at copper MMR when you do your placements, CSGO you start at at silver MMR while doing my placements. So my question is, why does League start freshies a tier above (almost 2) when they START their placements. I understand that most players are average but it takes some ounce of game knowledge to hit silver which new comers do not have.

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

I have been playing for a little over a year, myself. Last season was my first ranked season as well, and I also initially placed bronze 1. This season I was placed silver 2 and have managed to climb to gold 3.

I've only ever had a handful of games where I felt someone had absolutely no idea what they were doing.

Something important to keep in mind is that your opponents are just as likely to get bad teammates as you are. (Even though it may not feel that way at times) And in solo queue ultimately your performance is what matters most. You don't play solo queue for good teammates. You play solo queue to improve your own play.

Blaming losses on teammates is the easy way out (I'll admit I'm guilty of this, too). But there is ALWAYS something YOU could've done better.

Hope this helps.

naydoe2 votes

Oh I know I have things to improve and work on as a player. I started this post by saying that I understand loss is part of the game and I've accepted that. What I can't accept/understand is why a fresh lvl 30 player has silver 2 MMR. No new player is going to be at the same skill level as a veteran silver player and that person will just feed profusely. I just think that the starting MMR of a new player should be Bronze 1 and their performance should determine if they hit silver 2 MMR. That's just me though

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

As another person pointed out in this thread though, that's just the way the MMR system works. Normal and ranked MMR are separate, when a player plays ranked for the first time the system is going to want to initially place them at the average and see what happens from there. And for League, the average sits around the silver 3 range.

If they don't deserve it they will fall.

naydoe1 votes

Right but I don't think your point about "not needing to prove being silver" is valid. I worked hard to get to silver and I'm working my way toward gold. No new player is at silver level when they start. They don't have the game knowledge or mechanics to do so. If you are still tunnel visioned on the new account MMR starting in silver, can we at least agree that maybe, just maybe, it should be silver 5 0LP. Because I was in my silver 1 promos, with Gold 5 MMR. and I was getting these team mates. So with that in mind these players were getting into games over S1-G5 average MMR. I don't believe that is fair to any player, me or my opponents, to have on their team because it really does just unbalance the match enormously.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Right but I don't think your point about "not needing to prove being silver" is valid. I worked hard to get to silver and I'm working my way toward gold. No new player is at silver level when they start. They don't have the game knowledge or mechanics to do so. If you are still tunnel visioned on the new account MMR starting in silver, can we at least agree that maybe, just maybe, it should be silver 5 0LP. Because I was in my silver 1 promos, with Gold 5 MMR. and I was getting these team mates. So with that in mind these players were getting into games over S1-G5 average MMR. I don't believe that is fair to any player, me or my opponents, to have on their team because it really does just unbalance the match enormously.

You STILL don't get it. Your rating, Silver, is RELATIVE to other player's ratings. The AVERAGE player will remain at the entry point, because there will be as many players better than him as there are worse than him... Because he's AVERAGE. If the rating of the AVERAGE player goes down, then so to does everyone else's. Literally the only place this isn't true is at the very top of the ladder, where there is no one above you to compare to, so you just keep going up.

Let's say you and two friends, we'll call them Bob and Larry, play some hypothetical game. Larry is better than Bob, who is better than you. Every time Larry and Bob play, Larry wins, and every time you and Bob play, Bob wins. The three of you start a ladder. The entry point of that ladder is a rating of 1000. Each time you win, you get +10 points, and each time you lose, you get -10 Points. The three of you all play each other.

Larry wins twice: 1020 (+20) Bob wins once, Loses once: 1000 (+0) You lose twice: 980 (-20)

Makes sense so far right?

Let's say the entry point is moved to 2000:

Larry wins twice: 2020 (+20) Bob wins once, Loses once: 2000 (+0) You lose twice: 1980 (-20)

Let's say the entry point is moved to 300:

Larry wins twice: 320 (+20) Bob wins once, Loses once: 300 (+0) You lose twice: 280 (-20)

Seeing a pattern yet? It doesn't matter WHERE the entry point is. Your rating is always RELATIVE to the entry point.

TheUrbanKitsune1 votes

Subdue and Unker139 have explained it pretty nicely. The system is going to start them off at the statistic average, and that's just whats going to happen.

I can appreciate that you've worked hard to climb but you just gotta keep working hard. People will always find things to complain about; feeders, trolls, AFK's, smurfs, noobs, ect. Its always tempting to blame others (and I am guilty of this myself sometimes), especially when you do get genuinely toxic players in your game. But remember your opponents are just as likely to have to deal with that kinda stuff as you are. Gotta suck it up and keep trying. If you deserve it and are improving, you'll climb.

Unker1391 votes

MMR is a net zero system. Every game have the same gains and losses, so the average MMR for all ranked players is exactly the same as the entry point for new players. Riot has determined that the average player should be around silver 3.

You are right that a veteran silver player is probably better than a new ranked player, but what is the solution?

Riot could move the base but an average player would still be at the base wherever that might be. For visual, lets say you move the base the the bottom of bronze 4. Since the base is also the average MMR, you will have half the players at bronze 5 and half at bronze 4 or higher.

Riot could leave the MMR for matchmaking but start everyone at bronze 5. This would fix the problem of having unproven silver players.....but for the OP, you would still get the same teammate since you have a similar MMR but instead of a new silver 2 on your team, it would be a new bronze 5.

naydoe1 votes

Im not saying put it at like, 0 MMR and everyone goes from there, but I think it should be Silver 5, not silver 2. The player in the OP that I linked, their first ever ranked game was the game they basically ran into their botlane and at that point they had silver 2 MMR. That is what I'm saying the issue is. The unbalancing of teams because of this is what makes silver elo hell. But a player shouldn't start at the "average" of player base. they should have to prove that they are average, because no new player starts as "average" at league. Thats why I think it should be silver 5, because at least at that MMR they can hit average very easily if they acutally belong there

Sonny5461 votes

Well this is really problem from riot's part... i think riot should make a survey for 3 months in which they look at stats of every elo and put average cs and stats of new players and stats of all ranks(averages of all games)... Then riot would be able to determine where these players are supposed to be... Because if silver elo is average mechanics and average game knowledge and bronze is people who don't know difference between ad and ap then we see where new noobies should be put... After all alot of veterans(people who play game for 5+ seasons(me personally from season 2 till now)) have problems with silver cause while their game knowledge and mechanics can trade and fill the holes of their mistakes they can't do it for 2-3 people on team... After all today when standards and silver is much different then few seasons ago and players are better noobs impact games much more cause it is easier for enemis to comeback... I think rito should either do test play like a survey or simply put everyone from iron 4 and then for next 20 games give them increased game wins AND LOSSES so that consistent people can get to silver and from there learn in a healthy environment(let's be honest silver skilled players are not problem noobs are cause it is not tilting to loose one game but to know that out of set of games which is equal to 3 you get two games with people who don't understand the game to the point of knowing rotations like most silvers do today...)... I don't see why such test play or system would destroy current ranks apart from the fact that everybody would be maybe 1 division lower... That way it is even easier to filter gr8 players who can get to challenger...

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