Deathfire Touch feels weak

BreadWithButter·Nov 17, 2015·40 votes·4,662 views

In the early game you hardly do any damage by Deathfire Touch. If the enemy has at least 40 MR, the mastery does literally 0 damage.

I wouldnt say anything if it was supposed to be a late game mastery that needs time to grow up. But its quite the opposite. In custom game with 881 AP I was doing 34 magic damage per half second (on bot with 30 MR, actually 0 bacause i penetrated it with MP), which feels rather unsatisfying, not to say that aoe abilities deal half the damage.

My suggestion is to increase the AP scaling and let aoe abilities to do full damage because this mastery is used mostly by mages whose majority of abilities have aoe nature anyway.

60 Comments

1000angrybeesNov 17, 20159 votes

Not if you're

RocketRelmNov 18, 20152 votes

Deathfire touch is absurdly weak because Brand is a champion that exists. Deathfire touch cannot be strong for normal champions because then it would be warped on Brand.

Of course, this leaves AP mages that don't super synergize with it sad, so we're just waiting for Rito to introduce something for the AoE mages that doesn't need to be balanced around the red hot edge case.

1 800 MID LANENov 18, 20151 votes

Thunderlord's Decree?

RocketRelmNov 18, 20152 votes

Thunderlords Decree is more for Burst mages, I feel. More importantly it doesn't actually scale with AP. It 'says' it does, but it takes 900 AP to increase the Base Damage by 50% (from 180 to 270).

1 800 MID LANENov 18, 20151 votes

I posted a reply to another guy in this thread regarding it.

From my experience, the CD of Thunderlord's isn't bad in regards to how much extra damage it actually deals. From my experience, it's actually stronger late-game because of the AoE. With mages, I don't really bother with the hybrid pen and go for the higher CDR cap instead.

Essentially, what I do is if I'm using a champ with already good poke, but less about spamming abilities in lane, I go cunning. On champs that have the mana pool to spam abilities easier, I use ferocity. Either way, I've tried both, and I really don't notice a huge difference between the two trees outside of the extra utility in cunning. That CDR cap is amazing for lane bullies.

It's honestly more about how you play rather than what you play. Unless I plan on building it to 40%, I almost exclusively use CDR/lvl glyphs along with 1 CDR/lvl quint for my AP pages. I go nuts for getting that CDR cap without building an item 3174 and item 3165 . It sacrifices a fair amount of damage, but it helps even "burst" mages do decent DPS later on. I'm sure this strategy would be frowned upon by a lot of people, but after doing it so long, my mage pool just seems so clunky without it.

Blue Moon WolfNov 19, 20151 votes

Honestly from the stuff you have to pick to get it, I assumed it was for supports who are semi-damage dealers or for really mana hungry mages... which would probably be mostly burst mages now that I think about it .__.

ForgotToShootNov 17, 20153 votes

Wow.. That's. Really not a lot. Considering at that point of the game you already do so much damage from the AP burst itself, there's no reason to get DFT instead of the lightning keystone. Unless DFT is meant for tanks to deal more damage? But it doesn't sound like it. . .

YumaS2AstralNov 17, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Wow.. That's. Really not a lot. Considering at that point of the game you already do so much damage from the AP burst itself, there's no reason to get DFT instead of the lightning keystone. Unless DFT is meant for tanks to deal more damage? But it doesn't sound like it. . .

Thunderlord's Decree has a rather high cooldown. I usually get Deathfire Touch because getting it allows me to get the percentage penetration masteries from the ferocity tree. The flat penetration masteries from the cunning tree are extremely small and do not scale well.

To be honest there aren't any amazing options for mages on the masteries. They really feel like they were designed mostly with AD champions in mind.

BreadWithButterNov 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thunderlord's Decree has a rather high cooldown. I usually get Deathfire Touch because getting it allows me to get the percentage penetration masteries from the ferocity tree. The flat penetration masteries from the cunning tree are extremely small and do not scale well.

To be honest there aren't any amazing options for mages on the masteries. They really feel like they were designed mostly with AD champions in mind.

I would say the flat pen (8,4 at 18) outscales % (7%) until like 120 MR.

YumaS2AstralNov 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I would say the flat pen (8,4 at 18) outscales % (7%) until like 120 MR.

The problem is that you have very little flat pen (3,3) early game. Until it is able to outscale the 7% penetration on enemies that don't buy magic resistance, enemies will already have built magic resistance.

ZioviNov 17, 20153 votes

Actually, if we are talking aboutmagic damage, the flat pen works better than what you would think. The enemy needs to have 47/51/56/60/64/69/73/77/81/86/90/94/99/103/107/111/116/120 mag res at lvls 1-18 for the % pen to be better than the flat one. Once you buy Void Staff it's 72/79/87/94/101/108/115/122/129/137/144/151/158/165/172/179/185 at lvls 1-18 Many enemies in mid lane will have only 30-42 mag res (depending on runes) for most of the match. If they buy abyssal scepter, they gain another 50 mag res, getting to 80-92. However, i think that at the time they get it, their level will be high enough to let the flat penetration still be better or more or less equal to the % one. And with more levels, the advantage of flat penetration gets bigger unless they buy even more mag res. Some melee champions that are played mid will have their base mag res increase with their levels. If they also build abyssal (or maybe maw, if they are AD), than there could be a part of the game where the % penetration mastery is slightly better than the flat one. Late game when you have void flat penetration is still better in most cases, because it's not very common for champions to get more than 185 mag res. Also, the flat penetration is both magical and physical, which means that, even if only by a little bit, it helps with AA poking early game, especially against melees.

That said, the difference is not that big, actually, so it depends more on what keystone mastery you want to get.

RocketRelmNov 18, 20151 votes

40 MR * 7% 2.8, so even against enemies with flat MR blues at lvl 1, the flat pen is better.

Also note that the flat pen is Mixed, and that for early landing phase Auto attack harass can actually be relevant.

1 800 MID LANENov 18, 20151 votes

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20152 votes

DFT is better on some mages who can't easily land 3 spell shots/attacks on the same enemy, or mages who have DoT.

NahuiNov 17, 20153 votes

Everything related to AP is weak right now. Currently they're trying to push ADCs and AD. It'll get buffed later, however for now, Riot is putting AP down for whatever reason.

PartholonianNov 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Rand0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XV2gVfco,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-17T14:51:52.786+0000)

Everything related to AP is weak right now. Currently they're trying to push ADCs and AD. It'll get buffed later, however for now, Riot is putting AP down for whatever reason.

They made Warlord's OP by accident and are nerfing it next patch. There is no grand plot to screw over mages, it's just preseason craziness.

PartholonianNov 19, 20151 votes

Self-replied to add: I was wrong about this... because Riot didn't actually wait for next patch to nerf Warlord's. They hotfix nerfed it. That's how badly they wanted to make ADCs OP.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20153 votes

It's not weak, it just feels weak. It's still unsatisfying to use, but it's not weak.

BergkNov 17, 20152 votes

[deleted]

ZzEslIolZQNov 17, 20158 votes

wtf the hell are you talking about teemo's shrooms are bugged they don't proc anything

BergkNov 17, 20154 votes

[deleted]

Phil FlyNov 17, 20151 votes

"What the fuck? The hell are you .."

crazydanddgnatNov 17, 20152 votes

You obviously haven't seen how much obscene damage malzahar does right now.

His E, W, and ult now have crazy scaling (110% on e alone), to the point that with a rabadon's deathcap and RoA you immediately do 3/4ths of a squishy's health with your e alone.

VoodooGunmanNov 17, 20151 votes

Does DFT proc if Malefic Visions jumps to a new target, or does it only trigger on the initial cast?

runedaraNov 17, 20151 votes

It triggers on damage

crazydanddgnatNov 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Does DFT proc if Malefic Visions jumps to a new target, or does it only trigger on the initial cast?

It refreshes itself on every tick of most DoTs, so on space aids it will be reapplying constantly, for 10% AP in damage every 1.5 seconds, regardless of how many times it jumps.

Shas ONov 17, 20152 votes

I think it's more of an early game mastery for so more dps in lane

AbyssphereNov 17, 20152 votes

The problem with DFT is just the fact that it's so easy to be applying it to up to 5 people, and you can potentially be applying it continuously too. The damage has to be mediocre because it can be so constant on so many people, that if it were strong when used just once on one person it'd be ridiculous in group situations.

That said, 68 magic damage per second isn't too bad. That's a Liandry's tick on someone with 3400 HP, or an amped Liandry's tick on someone with 1700 HP. And the Liandry's passive isn't bad.

RebonackNov 17, 20152 votes

Deathfire Touch is outrageously over-tuned on DoT spells.

Its value probably needs to be nerfed on DoTs and improved elsewhere.

DJ Di0Nov 17, 20152 votes

I think it's more of a satisfactory issue than balance issue.

If you want noticeable and quick bursts of damage, Thunderlord's Decree is for you Annie Leblanc Ahri

If you want to slowly widdle down an enemy with sustsained damage, then Deathfire Touch is really good. Zyra Swain Anivia (well she can use either one imo)

qetzelNov 17, 20152 votes

And that is the problem. 34 damage per half second is equivalent to 200 damage by the time the spell finishes if it is a single target spell. Or it is 100 damage on up to 5 people for an AOE spell

These are not small numbers. They make a big difference. It is a strong mastery (except on burst mages/assassins who don't care for DOT and would rather burst one person down).

It is a feel problem. The solution is not to buff the mastery and make it OP. That would be foolish. It would just have to be nerfed again.

So what options are there? You can delete the mastery - this seems unnecessary given that it is doing an important job and would remove keystone variety for mages. You can make the DOT instant - not a good idea as there would be overlap with Thunderlord's. You can leave it as it is - probably the best option.

Weasel KenseiNov 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And that is the problem. 34 damage per half second is equivalent to 200 damage by the time the spell finishes if it is a single target spell. Or it is 100 damage on up to 5 people for an AOE spell

These are not small numbers. They make a big difference. It is a strong mastery (except on burst mages/assassins who don't care for DOT and would rather burst one person down).

Yeah thats a really good result.... adding up to 200 damage pff... I mean it only takes 881 AP.... wait wut? Yeah, that was what the OP said it took to get those numbers.

Id be more than happy with 34 damage on my ticks, but I dont remember the last time I hit 881 AP in a live match.

In a custom like he said, where you build NO cooldown reduction items, and NO boots, then you could hit some crazy AP.

Otherwise, its a bit meh. Iv actualy been using it on my Jungle assassin champs. The way I see it, if I just graze you with a few abilities with Yi or Rengar and you flash over a wall, youre still going to burn for half my AD bonus. Been working pretty well on Rengar, mostly in the early game right after I finish my Warrior enchant on my jungle item.

Honestly though for mages, Thunderlord is just better, you can proc it with auto attacks also.

TheGr8WhiteDNov 18, 20152 votes

Welcome to the League of gtfo AP!

7ha7guy777Nov 17, 20151 votes

It's like spellvamp. Weak on most mages because if it wasn't the abuse cases would be incredibly broken. Dot mages essentially get a bonus 36% ap scaling on their poke. Because of the Thunderlord glitch where only one person per team gets to actually use it, DFT is the best damage option for mage keystones for now. The biggest issue is that you need high ap for the base to be good on DFT but you also need high mpen for it to actually do that damage.

ChaosThiefNov 17, 20151 votes

Half the damage AND half the duration, if I recall correctly.

AuryielNov 17, 20151 votes

No just half the duration, so overall half the damage

Kuma No NekoNov 17, 20151 votes

Thunderlords decree scales worse and is on a 30 second cooldown + 3 hits to proc The only advantage it has is it's instant + aoe, how is DFT bad?

Dan AbnormalNov 17, 20151 votes

thunderlord has a base damage. 10*level. so 180 at level 18, not factoring the scaling. for DFT to deal as much damage over 3 second you need 900 ap

SoMNiaNov 17, 20151 votes

Don't forget the decent base damage. At level 10, Thunderlord's Decree is basically a free Luden's Echo passive. Also, the cooldown is being lowered to 20 seconds.

SoMNiaNov 17, 20151 votes

Nah, it does about 1 damage every half second at level 1, from what I've seen. AP scaling is lower than AD because items give more AP than AD. And AoE does apply full damage, just for half the duration. Cassiopeia makes quite good use of it, because she can continually reapply it and builds high AP totals.

MarhsallLee67Nov 17, 20151 votes

It's mostly suited for DoT champs such as Malzahar and Brand as opposed to burst mages (who benefit more from Thunderlord).

Jason the otherNov 18, 20151 votes

No its not zero more like .01 which is desplayed as 0

FakeGravityNov 18, 20151 votes

If you can use three spells on an enemie thunder lord is better if you have constant damage like anivia últi DFT is quite good but I still question it on anivia since might want the speed surge

Woodsy2575Nov 18, 20151 votes

Play Brand, you'll see how wrong you are

WolfBVNov 18, 20151 votes

DoT mages are good right now so megh.

MunchauzensNov 18, 20151 votes

Buffing it would honestly be a super bad idea. It may not be great on every mage, but its actually really broken on dot mages like and Anivia already. They're both sitting at over 55% winrate already and deathfire is largely to thank for that. Does it need to be changed? Maybe. But straightup buffed? Absolutely not.

Blue Moon WolfNov 18, 20151 votes

I equiped and bought item 2033 thinking that I was going to have s' passive in mastery/ item form... I was very disappointed :(

LlaniteNov 18, 20151 votes

All mastery are lacking if you ask me, besides the heal on crit and 300 HP.

Tis a nice dayNov 18, 20151 votes

They aren't supposed to completely destroy people by themselves in the first place.

Chuck CharlesNov 18, 20151 votes

deathfire touch is mostly ass on anyone who wants to chunk, but you put this on a damage over time champion like malzahar, brand, cassiopeia, etc....and you will see what it does. Pair it with the new corrupting potion, liandrys, rylais and you can just put your dot on someone and it does a shit ton of damage.