Return Nautilus to jungle

PENTRUPER·Nov 8, 2015·24 votes·2,515 views

I was main nautilus wen it was jungle, now that it was debuffed his dmg in jungle went down a lot, and people now never use it, or it has been ages sence i haven seen him. Pls bring back Nautilus jungle.

70 Comments

pripustasNov 8, 20158 votes

If you like him, play him. I don't think he needs buffs. He's very strong as it is. His jungle clear isn't even that bad. MonkeyKing try this guy. He can barely do 3 camps with a good leash..

Sightless66Nov 9, 20152 votes

Ehhhhh... "Very strong" is debatable. Hell, just "strong" would be debatable. Even "doesn't completely suck" would be debatable. He's probably one of the single worst junglers in the game right now. I'd take Wukong over Naut in the jungle any game. Seriously, any game, give me a Wukong instead of a Nautilus.

I'm with OP. I played Naut jungle back when tanks were out of style, but he's actually gotten worse there since then and I just can't do it without feeling guilty for fucking my team. Dude needs help if he's ever going to be a non-troll jungler again.

pripustasNov 9, 20151 votes

Wukong's clear is horrible. Ganks pre 6 rely on your laner setting up ganks. I admit, I don't play Nautilus that much, but he has high base damages, and a shit load of cc. I mean if you want a carry jungler, then yes, Nautilus is not the guy. He's a tank after all. Just like you won't pick Zac if you want a carry jungler.

Sightless66Nov 9, 20151 votes

His base damages have been decreased significantly from when he used to be a jungler, particularly in the early levels.

I wouldn't pick Nautilus if I wanted a carry jungler, and I wouldn't pick him if I wanted a tank jungler. I'd pick Wukong over Naut if I needed a tank jungler, that's how bad I think Nautilus is. Seriously, I can't actually think of a worse jungler (who actually goes to the jungle in real games) than Nautilus.

Wukong is fine. I've played him about 20 times this season. You can handle the first clear fine, and you'll just double jungle for a guaranteed easy clear if you're really that worried about it. The ganks are fine too. You contribute enough burst to make a sizeable difference and you can get in close enough to be able to get off quite a few autos before even having to use E. Invading is easy enough as well.

pripustasNov 9, 20152 votes

Well what is your problem with Nautilus? If it's early clear, then as you said, double jungle. But if it's his dueling power, then I can't help you, because Nautilus has an extreme amount of cc. He's already very strong as a support, we don't need him any stronger.

Sightless66Nov 9, 20151 votes

If it's early clear, then as you said, double jungle.

Even if you double jungle, your poor clear speed actually delays the time it takes for the top laner to get to lane, and you can't follow it up quickly for an ideal level 3 gank. And then of course, you have the second clear, and the third clear, and the fourth, and every other clear ever that takes you years to finish. Low farming speed due to horrible damage is a real problem.

But if it's his dueling power

Uh.... no. That's not it. Mind you, it does hurt him because he's probably the easiest jungler in the game to invade because of his abysmal clear speed and horrible movespeed, but that's not my big problem. My problems are that his map mobility is so limited by poor speed, and his ganks are limited by very poor damage and reliance on an average-reliability skillshot. On top of that, he can't afford to fall behind at all or he loses all ability to impact the game. He can't farm his way back into the game because he's one of the slowest farmers and he, and he actually loses his ability to gank if he gets behind because he contributes so little to an actual fight when behind that you can actually 2v1 him with some reliability. So, if you get behind, which you do regularly because you're weak early game, then you stay behind by so much that you can't impact the game.

So, he's snowball reliant but weak early game, and he's dependent on ganking without amazing ganks and with no fallback pattern if his ganks. The good jungle tanks can do anything Nautilus does better with fewer weaknesses. What's to like?

He's already very strong as a support, we don't need him any stronger.

Fuck him as a support. I don't give a single fuck about him there. He's been there for less than a season. Take power away from that and put it back into his jungling. That would be my ideal right now. I know it's unrealistic and Riot won't actually do it because he's balanced as a support (again, very strong is reeeeeeaaaaaaly pushing it), but it's still what I want.

pripustasNov 9, 20151 votes

Well I mean Wukong can't gank level3, I'm left with ~10% hp after doing 3 camps, so I have to back every time. He is just as weak pre level 6, and squishier than Nautilus. Clear is super slow, and extremely mana consuming.

I don't know if I'll be able to take him jungle next season, due to the removal of item 3713

Sightless66Nov 9, 20151 votes

Well I mean Wukong can't gank level3, I'm left with ~10% hp after doing 3 camps, so I have to back every time.

Do a double jungle and you'll hit level 3 at full health. Wukong clears fast enough 1-3 in the early levels to be able to get a gank out at a reasonable time. The problem can be mitigated. That's not saying Wukong is amazing or anything, but he's ok. Nautilus... legitimately sucks.

He is just as weak pre level 6,

Not even. He at least does damage and can kill someone in an invade or counter-invade. Early on, those are at least slightly valuable traits. He's not amazing early, but there's a long way between being just meh early game and being Nautilus-level bad early game. It's not even comparable.

I don't know if I'll be able to take him jungle next season

You will. The removal of trailblazer is minimal when compared to everything making the jungle easier to fight. The jungle monsters are weaker and the new jungle items are quite effective at keeping junglers sustained. If you're really worried about sustain, the jungle potions completely solve that problem no matter who you are. I've tried it out, and it will be generally easier to take junglers with health problems next season.

Silents429Nov 9, 20151 votes

I still consistently play Jungle Nautilus and have for years, trying to argue he is weak and going as far as saying single worst jungler is some serious bullshit.

Sightless66Nov 10, 20152 votes

I played jungle Nautilus for years. I've played as many games on him as anyone. I stopped in season 5. I've played him more than enough to feel comfortable with my assessment. Single worst jungler, out of any champion who actually jungles. Seriously, I'm thinking through the list of junglers, and I can't think of any situation where Nautilus isn't outclassed. Not even one. I could pick a better champion for any game, any team comp, against any enemies.

You can still him work, but he's legitimately bad. It's playable, but you could pretty much always be playing a stronger champion. He had power shifted into the support role, than got universally nerfed to compensate for his strength as a support. His jungle role hasn't dealt well with that.

If you still like him and play him, more power to you. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't make him good though.

Here's a question. Which jungler is worse than Naut? I'm having a hard time finding one. Maokai maybe? Poppy gets jungled sometimes, maybe she's worse? No one else comes to mind.

Professor WardNov 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I played jungle Nautilus for years. I've played as many games on him as anyone. I stopped in season 5. I've played him more than enough to feel comfortable with my assessment. Single worst jungler, out of any champion who actually jungles. Seriously, I'm thinking through the list of junglers, and I can't think of any situation where Nautilus isn't outclassed. Not even one. I could pick a better champion for any game, any team comp, against any enemies.

you have no clue about nautilus, nor do you have as many games on him as anyone, i main naut with over 125k mastery and hes is far far far from weak and far far far from needing a buff, but hell ill take one.

Sightless66Nov 10, 20152 votes

I have over 200 games on him. That's enough to have a valid opinion. I think he's that weak, and if he's going to be a viable jungler, he needs a buff. Why do you think he's strong? What qualities do you think he surpasses his competition in, and how do you think they make up for the weaknesses he has?

Professor WardNov 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have over 200 games on him. That's enough to have a valid opinion. I think he's that weak, and if he's going to be a viable jungler, he needs a buff. Why do you think he's strong? What qualities do you think he surpasses his competition in, and how do you think they make up for the weaknesses he has?

while looking at your profile i dont see that you have 200 games on him unless youre playing him in modes other than sr or on a different account, you dont even have em mastery 5

The problem is, people compare him to carry junglers and post 6 junglers; which of the 2 he is neither, nautilus starts shining at lvl 2. Ask your botlane to let them push and first blood is all but guaranteed. Nautilus is also very very UN-reliant on gold meaning you can be a "dedicated gankster" with nautilus.

he does have his weak spots as any champion does but honestly nautilus is not bad just different to play.

A nautilus buff would do nothing but give me more wins botlane with him and just isnt going to happen.

i have somewhere around 75% winrate in 50 ranked games with naut, hes basically freelo already i dont know why your saying hes weak at all honestly

Sightless66Nov 10, 20151 votes

while looking at your profile i dont see that you have 200 games on him unless youre playing him in modes other than sr or on a different account, you dont even have em mastery 5

If you're just looking at my profile I'm not going to have 200 wins on anyone because I don't play ranked any more than I have to. I've played around 50-75 games on this account and another 100-150 on my main. Also, keep in mind that the mastery system is recent. It started in season 5, around patch 5.6. The change that shifted Nautilus to being a support happened in 5.5. I think that should make it pretty clear why I haven't him much since then.

The problem is, people compare him to carry junglers and post 6 junglers; which of the 2 he is neither, nautilus starts shining at lvl 2.

Assuming no one fucks with you, which they ALWAYS do at higher skill levels. Play Elise against a Naut sometimes and see just how easy it is to screw him. If you start on the same side of the map as him, you're pretty much guaranteed a first blood, either on him or on when you countergank his slow and predictable ganks.

A nautilus buff would do nothing but give me more wins botlane with him and just isnt going to happen.

Agreed. That's why his support role would have to be nerfed if he's ever going to be a good jungler again. It won't happen, but I'd like it to.

i have somewhere around 75% winrate in 50 ranked games with naut,

And I win something like 75% of my Sona and Rammus games. Doesn't make either of them freelo. Just means that I've played them a lot and I'm skilled with them. Same goes to you. I'll go with his 47ish % winrate as a jungler, because that's way more important than either of our experiences.

Silents429Nov 10, 20151 votes

The troll is real.

Sightless66Nov 10, 20151 votes

Dude, that's not a response. Don't just write off someone's opinion as being trolling because you disagree with it. You know that's not right. I've haven't made any kind of assumptions or insults about you. Give me the same treatment.

I legitimately think Nautilus is that weak as a jungler. He's not preforming well either. He has one of the lowest jungler winrates despite being underplayed and his playerbase having an average skill distribution with him. There is not a single statistic that indicates strength.

Who is worse than Nautilus?

Professor WardNov 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you like him, play him. I don't think he needs buffs. He's very strong as it is. His jungle clear isn't even that bad. try this guy. He can barely do 3 camps with a good leash..

i literally just played a jung naut game i main him at support and his lvl 2/3 ganks are some of the best.

naut is one of the most valuable champs as he can still go top jg and supp very effectively

Only Play DariusNov 8, 20158 votes

Return Maokai to the jungle, right now he is literally the worst top laner AND jungler Also return Diana to the jungle too, she is obnoxious as a midlaner (tanky Akali) If you really, really must buff DrMundo , buff his jungling, I hate laning against that buffoon Also buff Hecarim 's jungling without making him an immovable toplaner like last time Make Darius a usable jungler again, god knows everyone hates laning against him anyway While you're at it make Fiora a usable jungler again

SammystormNov 8, 20152 votes

I like mundo top lane though :/

Only Play DariusNov 8, 20153 votes

Maybe I was a little too hard on him, but you can't deny that he is aggravating to deal with.

PrimaquariusNov 8, 20151 votes

As a Mundo user, I can say a good way to counter him is with heavy-AD champs like Darius. Anything you can do to delay his Visage powerspike is well worth it

Spacesuit SpiffNov 9, 20151 votes

Ive only had that matchup once, but i kept running out of mana before i could even get close to killing him. Dont think i used r in the first 25 minutes of the game

ChaoticPineconeNov 9, 20151 votes

its a free lane for Vladimir

Asayake 5150glowNov 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUJpXOpn,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-11-08T22:11:46.843+0000)

Return to the jungle, right now he is literally the worst top laner AND jungler Also return to the jungle too, she is obnoxious as a midlaner (tanky Akali) If you really, really must buff , buff his jungling, I hate laning against that spam-happy idiot Also buff 's jungling without making him an immovable toplaner like last time Make a usable jungler again, god knows everyone hates laning against him anyway While you're at it make a usable jungler again

Diana is a mid lane assassin that scales into a fighter. She's nowhere near as bursty as Akali in lategame.

DrMundo jungle. Doesn't his Q chunk for 25% of their current life? Guess there's a max on minions/monsters.

Only Play DariusNov 8, 20152 votes

Akali has a weaker laning phase and her lategame isn't as good as Diana because she sucks at teamfights, since she offers no CC, no (significant) AOE damage, no survivability, and her energy costs are going to creep up on her, whereas level 18 Diana has absolutely no mana concerns. Who cares about late game burst? The current meta is based around what you can do in teamfights at that stage of the game. Instabursting one squishy then dying is not nearly as impactful as jumping into the middle of the enemy team, shielding yourself, hitting hourglass the moment they focus you, then cleaning up the survivors.

Asayake 5150glowNov 8, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUJpXOpn,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2015-11-08T23:32:32.878+0000)

Akali has a weaker laning phase and her lategame isn't as good as Diana because she sucks at teamfights, since she offers no CC, no (significant) AOE damage, no survivability, and her energy costs are going to creep up on her, whereas level 18 Diana has absolutely no mana concerns. Who cares about late game burst? The current meta is based around what you can do in teamfights at that stage of the game. Instabursting one squishy then dying is not nearly as impactful as jumping into the middle of the enemy team, shielding yourself, hitting hourglass the moment they focus you, then cleaning up the survivors.

Have you ever played Diana? She has huge mana issues lvl 7+. That's why I always start with double item 1004 , and my last item is always item 3040 . After killing a single target, she will have less than half mana after 7.

Plus, Diana does best when she's not an initiator. Sure, she can be a good one, but she's better off flanking and charging the back line a little after the fight has started.

Only Play DariusNov 8, 20152 votes

I'm just saying her late game is underrated. Her ratio on her passive is pretty damn high considering it has no cost and hits in an AOE. Her shield is obnoxious and scales hard with her items. And of course she is one of the biggest abusers of item 3157 , seeing as she is pretty difficult to kill in the first place, but that's more of a problem with the item itself which I despise.

Asayake 5150glowNov 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUJpXOpn,comment-id=00070001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-08T23:49:35.639+0000)

I'm just saying her late game is underrated. Her ratio on her passive is pretty damn high considering it has no cost and hits in an AOE. Her shield is obnoxious and scales hard with her items. And of course she is one of the biggest abusers of , seeing as she is pretty difficult to kill in the first place, but that's more of a problem with the item itself which I despise.

I know, actually. I love building Diana fighter and still being able to 1v1/burst squishies xD She's best mid lane though, cuz I never take Lich Bane on her, so I don't wanna be forced to take Runeglaive. They just aren't good enough for their cost. Or rather, there's better stuff which only costs ~500 more gold.

Only Play DariusNov 9, 20151 votes

I can't pick Katarina or Yasuo thanks to people like you QQ.

In all seriousness her passive forces her to shove the wave so she theoretically should be bad at mid since she has no escapes either, but I rarely see her get punished for overextending, and I find her poke to be a bit too good for how much she overpowers you once she does decide to dive.

Also in my experience 4/5 players who take Diana mid are trash talkers and bad sports who gloat in allchat after winning lane and never forget to say "gg ez" in post match, although that could be due to Diana mid being FOTM, Diana jg players are usually friendly.

Asayake 5150glowNov 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUJpXOpn,comment-id=0007000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T18:36:03.785+0000)

I can't pick Katarina or Yasuo thanks to people like you QQ.

In all seriousness her passive forces her to shove the wave so she theoretically should be bad at mid since she has no escapes either, but I rarely see her get punished for overextending, and I find her poke to be a bit too good for how much she overpowers you once she does decide to dive.

Also in my experience 4/5 players who take Diana mid are trash talkers and bad sports who gloat in allchat after winning lane and never forget to say "gg ez" in post match, although that could be due to Diana mid being FOTM, Diana jg players are usually friendly.

Really? You just gotta have ur jungle gank when she dives you. The only problem is that she may be able to 2v1... except she won't have her W up (again), so probably not.

She doesn't really push the wave too much, because her passive stacks do fall off. If you aren't continuously auto attacking when you don't need to, her wave clear is bad. Until you get Nashors, you have to use Q+W to wave clear, because your autos are just too slow.

junglerboy16Nov 9, 20152 votes

If you are running out of mana after killing a champ, you should be going for item 3174 instead. The mana restore on kill/assist is huge, not to mention the CDR allows her to kill another champ more quickly because her rotation comes up so much sooner.

Asayake 5150glowNov 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you are running out of mana after killing a champ, you should be going for instead. The mana restore on kill/assist is huge, not to mention the CDR allows her to kill another champ more quickly because her rotation comes up so much sooner.

Seraphs gives additional burst, giving 110 AP just from it's maxed out and base stats. I kinda need the burst, since my other items are Zhonya's, Rylai's, Abyssal, and Nashors.

junglerboy16Nov 9, 20153 votes

May give better burst, but Diana is terrible at stacking it and needs to have a strong early-mid game so that she snowballs well into late game. Sitting on item 3070 , which does very little for her sustain issues until close to max stacks, also leaves her woefully lacking in burst damage until you complete other big ticket items.

If you are against a really weak early game champ and can afford to waste time stacking it, be my guest, but in a normal matchup Tear into Seraph's is too big of a risk for a small reward relative to her mana alternatives.

Asayake 5150glowNov 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

May give better burst, but Diana is terrible at stacking it and needs to have a strong early-mid game so that she snowballs well into late game. Sitting on , which does very little for her sustain issues until close to max stacks, also leaves her woefully lacking in burst damage until you complete other big ticket items.

If you are against a really weak early game champ and can afford to waste time stacking it, be my guest, but in a normal matchup Tear into Seraph's is too big of a risk for a small reward relative to her mana alternatives.

Meh, I always sit on the Tear for a while. I just buy it if I find myself dead/forced to recall without enough gold for anything else. I think it gives plenty of mana/mana regen, I have a lot less problems with my mana. I didn't have enough mana to kill two people. And I build Seraph's last, so I'm in no hurry.

Besides, like I said, I build Diana fighter. She's got extremely high bases (due to being an early-game assassin), so Q+R+W+Q+R is enough to take out about two-thirds of your opponent's life (with little risk to yourself as well, because they know if they try to fight, you get more passive procs off. And that fat shield). Even without building Diana full assassin, she can still oneshot/clean up the back line, so I prefer a bit of durability and dueling potential of extra burst. Not sure if I already posted my build, but my first item gives only 70 AP (but the flat MR break is really good, especially against squishies). After that, it's Zhonya's, which gives armor as well as that active, and 100 AP. From there I go to Nashor's, for more auto attack damage, clear speed, and taking turrets. It also gives a handy 20% Cdr, as well as 60 AP. That's only 230 AP so far. Then I take Rylais, which is 100 AP, life, and a pretty heavy slow. After that, I get 139 AP from Seraphs, (it's more because of Diana's base 977 AP at lvl 18). So in total, my build only has 469 AP and 0 AD (technically I have Nashors, but still). It makes me deceptively tanky (while building damage, everything still helps me do damage - slow, MR break).

By the time I actually grab Seraph's, I'm usually at least 700/750 of the way there.

After all, you'll need to kill people without your Blue buff, and as strong as your passive is, I don't wanna have to rely on it.

ChaoticPineconeNov 9, 20151 votes

no offense, but your build sucks. Youre either giving up deathcap and its multiplier or void staff, and youre buying it as your last item.

item 3027 item 3001 item 3157 item 3089 item 3135 is my "tanky" diana build. substitute item 3100 for ROA if you want more burst, item 3115 if you want more CDR and sustained damage.

Asayake 5150glowNov 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

no offense, but your build sucks. Youre either giving up deathcap and its multiplier or void staff, and youre buying it as your last item.

is my "tanky" diana build. substitute for ROA if you want more burst, if you want more CDR and sustained damage.

Eh. Really, I don't need Deathcap or Void Staff. Personally never found those armor/MR pen items to be too good, anyway. Plus, new Rylai's is definitely worth it for the stick (40% each skill). Nashor's is great for dueling, so you can actually duel. My build works pretty well, 400 AP is nothing to laugh at on a fighter.

With that build, you will definitely be outdueled by anyone. Remember, as a fighter, you wanna duel people (as well as burst-dueling ADC/APC). And, that build has 0 CDR. Diana is all about chaining together kills, and cuz she has no resets, she needs the CDR. RoA also feels much weaker early game, taking 10 minutes to stack up.

And btw, I build Vi assassin(TriForce, BT, Rav, LW, TBC, etc) xD

junglerboy16Nov 9, 20152 votes

Preach it! Maokai was my most played jungler for the whole year leading up to his rework, and they didn't do him any justice as a jungler.

Wind WhistlerNov 9, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUJpXOpn,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-11-08T22:11:46.843+0000)

Return to the jungle, right now he is literally the worst top laner AND jungler

Don't you mean: Return him to the FOREST?

TitanOfTheDeepNov 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XUJpXOpn,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-11-08T22:11:46.843+0000)

Return to the jungle, right now he is literally the worst top laner AND jungler Also return to the jungle too, she is obnoxious as a midlaner (tanky Akali) If you really, really must buff , buff his jungling, I hate laning against that buffoon Also buff 's jungling without making him an immovable toplaner like last time Make a usable jungler again, god knows everyone hates laning against him anyway While you're at it make a usable jungler again

Darius can honestly jungle pretty well, his first clear makes him low but he can still full clear the jungle, and Cinderhulk is insanely good on him due to have crazy Tanky it makes him, his ganking is lackluster though. Diana can jungle well to, as it removes the problem of being useless in the laning phase by farming up the jungle till your six and you can gank your heart out. Hecarim is also still good in the jungle with wonderful ganks. And Nautilus isn't a bad jungler at all, he becomes a unkillable tank that can kill squishies without too much problem and offers so much Cc for the team.

Silents429Nov 9, 20151 votes

Basically push our problems in the Jungle.

I just want Maokai to have a better clear and I'd pick him up again, Hecarim has deeper problems where he needs to be ahead or he falls off.

alasarcherNov 8, 20154 votes

Just because people dont use it, doesnt mean u shouldnt. Just because he isnt meta, if u are loyal to him, u will play him and own with him.

Snake TownNov 8, 20154 votes

I still main him, he's not great, but fuck it he's my boy

AuroramancerNov 8, 20154 votes

He's still very strong in the jungle

KONO RUBICK DANov 8, 20153 votes

he is still viable in the jungle

Big LincolnNov 8, 20152 votes

i don't see why he's bad in the jungle, I've snowballed very well with him mot games I use him

people just play him bot because Riot's balancing now favors tank supports with tons of innate CC because they don't need high amounts of gold

TTUPhoenixNov 9, 20151 votes

He's not bad. His clears are kind of slow, but they're actually quite safe as far as tank junglers go, since he can spam the shield and the hook can help him escape counter jungling. His base damages are also good.

Naut's problem is that his cc is pretty single target focused and he can have trouble locking down highly mobile targets (ie, this guys Fizz ) and his damage falls off pretty hard after mid game even if you build some AP, so you need to hope your team is doing alright by then to follow up on your CC.