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Of Veigar and Change

Xaviertrix··31 votes·1,899 views

Update: it's been awknowledged by Riot that his identity as a burst mage is suffering from his lack of reliability. While I don't agree with how they're going at fixing it, I'm glad they're still working on him.

I certainly hope they look at this discussion, if only to see some of the stuff we've come up with. Some of it isn't half bad, I have to say!


Hello. I'm Xaviertrix, coming by the Forums (or, rather, the boards) for perhaps my last post on the champion that has been at the core of my League experience for the last three years.
Some may recognize me as the one who created [a different Of Veigar and Change thread](http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3654954), well over a year ago; that, or the one who tried to give [creative feedback](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback/GiEBNBLB-pbe-bugs-feedback-thread-final-boss-veigar?comment=0078) for [Final Boss Veigar](http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback/GiEBNBLB-pbe-bugs-feedback-thread-final-boss-veigar?comment=0027) where only bugs were being addressed... But most of you won't, and that's okay.

The reason I'm creating this discussion is because, plain and simple, I feel as though what made Veigar a fun and *satisfying* champion to play has been destroyed the recent slew of changes. Believe me, I have tried to adapt, come to terms, and treat the changes as shifts towards a better League, however now that on the PBE we have another slew of changes headed bound the Tiny Master of Evil, I feel as though if I do not make myself heard now I will fade into irrelevancy, simply because (and I hate to use such broad terms, but I must state it as I've found it) I've found no one else seems to care, be it in the community or in Riot positions.

As a means of context, in the aftermath of patch 5.2 (in which the Deathfire Grasp was removed), Riot Jag stated that 
> As far as champions that purchase DFG are concerned, some will get some love now that DFG is gone (I mentioned Ahri; expect Veigar to get attention either this patch or next)
and, at least to Ahri players (as well as Mordekaiser players, as the kit on the whole remained in a similar, somewhat-buffed state) this was true; their kits received apt attention and the players could rest confident in that their champions were sound.

Veigar, on the other hand, lost something that nearly all of his players took for granted, myself included: Reliability.

Baleful Strike has become a quick-moving, double-hit skillshot with the potential to gain twice as much AP (or, in certain circumstances, damage two enemy champions), which as a standalone change I fully support. I recognize the amount of raw damage this has added to his kit, as well, and understand the compensatory nerf on Primordial Burst's ap ratio - even without that extra .2, Veigar does significantly more damage throughout the game with a full combo.

The problem arises, however, in that a full combo is completely unreliable.

With the addition of the .75s total delay (.25s cast time, .5 activation) and extremely blatant .75s activation indicator on Event Horizon, enemies at all skill levels (prominently in low Gold, where I reside) are able to avoid the stun with negligible effort; and to add insult to injury, the majority of champions (even of those without on-demand dashes) are simply able to walk out of the threatened area (even if cast with the champion in the center) with no repercussions, especially when T2 boots are taken into account. As an offensive tool, Event Horizon has been rendered useless outside of being a followup to another champion with heavy cc as Veigar has absolutely no means of 'forcing' the enemy to walk into the stun area or setting up the trap as so they will walk into it naturally. As a defensive tool, it performs slightly better in that Veigar can set it up and walk through the activating walls, leaving it difficult for others to chase him. However, as a clutch stun tool (for example, if a Zed, Xin Zhao or Yasuo leap directly to him) it offers absolutely nothing with regard to defense; even with point-target blinks, there is always enough time for the enemy to sidestep the stun, even if cast immediately upon their arrival (or even before, if the gapcloser has an indicator). Both are pale imitations of the .25s total cast time that it had prior, and the complete lack of compensatory utility buffs has rendered the skill one that feels almost wrong to put points into.

It is important to note that the pending change that will stop dashes from traversing the wall (one that I was initially excited about) helps to address none of these problems. The incredible delay and crippling indicator will still be present, and even if the champion manages to get trapped in the cage, the bulk of Veigar's damage is still constituted by being able to land Baleful Strike and/or Dark Matter; neither of which is guaranteed, now, in that the area inside Event Horizon is more than ample to be able to sidestep both the projectile and the AOE (to think noting of if 2+ minions are also present in the cage). The dash-stopping will manage to prevent edge cases, such as the easily conceivable "Leblanc uses Distortion to hop away/at Veigar," but in all other regards it will continue to function as it was.

The buffs that are available on the PBE address his mana regeneration and Q speed/range - neither of which he needs. His damage is perfectly reasonable - even more than reasonable, I would go as far as to argue. They seem to be forcing him into the role of a mage entirely reliant on poking with his Q throughout the entirety of the game, leaving the illusive 'combo' something that is something wholly out of his control - and from this derives my primary complaint: **the ability to feel satisfied with the champion.**

Before, playing as and against Veigar demanded a good knowledge of Event Horizon to function well. Enemies were forced to take into account the near-instant stun and place themselves in positions and go at attack angles that outsmarted the player - now, they are able to charge directly at him with no repercussions, save for having to take several small steps sideways/forwards to avoid his only defensive tool. Defensive buys such as Banshees and QSS served as your 'get out of jail free card' - a fact that has remained completely unchanged, leaving this as a flat nerf. When playing Veigar, one had to take into account the .25s delay - while much less than the current .75s, it was still extremely pivotal to account for movement in medium-to-high level play. If cast using smarcast, as well, a strong sense of range was needed in order to drop the outer ring on yourself, in the case of gapclosing Veigar-murderers. Even when fighting Veigar, I understood that the instant-stun was core to his kit, and knew that even if the indicators weren't a grossly over-tuned .75s flashing red light to move or else (again, apologies for the language), there was indeed solid counterplay to Event Horizon that I could use to my advantage - and when I was caught, **I didn't see it as mechanical weakness, I saw it as the enemy outplaying me** - something which I was perfectly fine with (even if a tad frustrating at times).

I feel as though the changes Riot is attempting to force on Veigar fail to address the consistency issues that losing a reliable stun did to his kit. **It feels genuinely horrible even if you got a kill, because you feel less like you did something awesome and more because the enemy was stupid enough to walk into the extremely obvious, almost stupid traps you set down.** I feel like I have no control over the situation, and no amount of individual skill will ever allow me to succeed.

It was mentioned at one point that you had the desire of making Event Horizon into a spell that trapped the enemy without directly affecting them - I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but Riot, in this instance you have failed spectacularly in terms of assessing worth. No amount of potential indirect trapping can ever relate to the real threat of CC, especially on a kit so unforgivably reliant on actually landing your skills. You've made Event Horizon into an Equinox without a silence; a Gravity Field without a slow. You've given him an Event Horizon into a skill that has use cases so monumentally situational that it's almost rendered him without an E. It brings me no pride to play the champion I've cherished and loved through my entire development as a League player, and that's the worst feeling in the world.


And that's what I wanted to say. There are my qualms and my reasonings and my passions about what has been done to my favorite champion. I'm sorry for being angry and accusatory and blatantly direct in my arguments, but if I'm to be the only one to say them, so be it. I'm just a voice among millions, and I hope that some will consider it worth listening to.

With love,
- Veigar's biggest fan.

27 Comments

Xaviertrix7 votes

In the case anyone wanted to hear of what I would do to fix the problem, here are the three ideas I had thought up: 1 - Revert Event Horizon to 5.2 functionality 2 - Revert Event Horizon to 5.2 functionality, with an indicator for the .25s cast time (akin to Xerath's spells) 3 - Grant soft cc upon being trapped within Event Horizon 4 - Remove Event Horizon and give veigar an E that grants even semi-reliable cc

Champion Skin1 votes

Or they could completely rework Veigar's E though that would also require W to be reworked as it just doesn't function on its own

SmokingPuffin3 votes

I feel as though if I do not make myself heard now I will fade into irrelevancy, simply because (and I hate to use such broad terms, but I must state it as I've found it) I've found no one else seems to care, be it in the community or in Riot positions.

Are you sure about this? On the community side, I see a ton of interest in Veigar. On the Riot side, I watched the 5.4 patch rundown where they just wrecked Veigar, and they clearly felt bad about the state they had left him in. They've also followed up with at least two consecutive patches of Veigar buffs -- while I agree that he's still in a bad state, it doesn't look like they've given up or stopped caring.

Veigar, on the other hand, lost something that nearly all of his players took for granted, myself included: Reliability.

You shouldn't have taken this for granted.

Reliable CC has been disappearing at a rate of about a champion every other patch. Riot had explicitly noted Veigar E as the skill holding him back in the past.

Both are pale imitations of the .25s total cast time that it had prior, and the complete lack of compensatory utility buffs has rendered the skill one that feels almost wrong to put points into.

There's no question it's a shadow of its former self. It has to be. Old E was better than most ultimates and had a tiny cooldown for the effect.

I would still prefer New E over most CC buttons in the game. For example, it's better than Nami Q, Thresh Q, Vel'koz E, or Viktor W, and all of these champions see play. The way I see it, the problem is that the rest of Veigar's kit has not been buffed by enough to compensate for the loss of what was effectively a targeted damage play pattern.

the bulk of Veigar's damage is still constituted by being able to land Baleful Strike and/or Dark Matter; neither of which is guaranteed,

Veigar Q is now pretty comparable with Ezreal Q. I wouldn't be too worried about landing it.

On the other hand, Veigar W is pretty unchanged, and I think that's dumb. Very much want to see them make it work more like Xerath W, and I think that would really help the kit play better.

They seem to be forcing him into the role of a mage entirely reliant on poking with his Q throughout the entirety of the game, leaving the illusive 'combo' something that is something wholly out of his control - and from this derives my primary complaint: the ability to feel satisfied with the champion.

If your goal with Veigar is to reliably land E then press all the buttons to kill something, I don't think they are going to support that play pattern.

If you want Veigar to be about more than just landing Qs, I think that's a goal Riot will back you on.

Before, playing as and against Veigar demanded a good knowledge of Event Horizon to function well. Enemies were forced to take into account the near-instant stun and place themselves in positions and go at attack angles that outsmarted the player

I don't really understand how to outsmart Old E. It had a giant range and no particle. It strikes me as Veigar's mistake whenever it misses. I watched support Veigar see play in Korea and thought "I see no way for the defending team to respond to that siege".

I feel as though the changes Riot is attempting to force on Veigar fail to address the consistency issues that losing a reliable stun did to his kit. It feels genuinely horrible even if you got a kill, because you feel less like you did something awesome and more because the enemy was stupid enough to walk into the extremely obvious, almost stupid traps you set down. I feel like I have no control over the situation, and no amount of individual skill will ever allow me to succeed.

Do you feel this way on other delayed CC champions? Concretely, if you play Vel'koz, do you feel like you have control of the play?

Xaviertrix5 votes

A fair assessment of what I've said, and I really appreciate how you took note of Dark Matter's relationship to Event Horizon (I wasn't that thorough on that topic, in hindsight). However, several things you said were a bit concerning:

I would still prefer New E over most CC buttons in the game. For example, it's better than Nami Q, Thresh Q, Vel'koz E, or Viktor W, and all of these champions see play. The way I see it, the problem is that the rest of Veigar's kit has not been buffed by enough to compensate for the loss of what was effectively a targeted damage play pattern.

In this instance, I fail to see the logic, simply for how the CC synergizes with the kit of the respective champion.

  • Nami's Q serves as a clear zoning tool in a kit that is built around zone control (via cc and harass range in lane, primarily) - additionally, it synergizes well with her autoattack-based-slow and ultimate, both of which are easier to land and allow better consistent cc. Also, it does damage.
  • Thresh's Q is a single-target, minion-blockable cc-tank-focused grappling hook that lets him get in range to land the rest of his spells. There's no way Veigar would want this, but there's no doubt that it serves it's purpose relative to the kit far better than Veigar's CC does. Also, damage.
  • Vel'Koz's E functions akin to Nami's Q in that the extreme slow from one of his other abilities (Q) allows much easier landing. Furthermore, it isn't necessary to land this in order to land your other abilities (Q, W and R can all function without the knockup, that just serves to create a 'combo' feeling). Also, it serves as a self-peel in that the projectile lands faster the closer the target area is, knocks targets back as well as up (both of which cannot be reduced or cleansed), and does damage.
  • Viktor's W would be the closest parallel, but the biggest qualm is the one I alluded to in the argument: even if the stun never triggers (which, in all honesty, is the most common scenario, given how obvious it is), it sets up after the standard .25s and provides immediate benefit: all enemies within are slowed. This allows Viktor to either peel or get in range to land his point-blank combo (guaranteed E-Q-AA-R, or some variant). This is hardly a fair comparison, however, in that Viktor is able to impose a strong, consistent poke with Death Ray and flash-EQAAR without ever needing the stun. Veigar does not have this reliable poke (unless you're willing to give up Q farm; his mana is much more of a limitation than Viktor's due to the age of his kit), and if he tried the same flash combo, the only guarantee would be for his R to land. Q is still impeded by minions, and there's no way in hell that his W will land if he tries a flash play with it.

It's the idea of reliability again, in a nutshell. If I cast a spell to the best of my ability, it feels wrong to me that it will give me no benefit, aside from the brief thought of "Wow, if that champion had stood still for .75 seconds I would've had them" Case in point, I played against a Zac earlier today. He had 100 health and was escaping, and upon casting Elastic Slingshot I dropped Event Horizon as to stun him at the takeoff point as well as stun him if he launched off in the direction he was charging. Without needing to cancel his Slingshot and step backwards, he charged up fully enough to leave the Event Horizon area without getting stunned. Needless to say, I felt genuinely cheated that my only cc ability refused to actually provide cc.

I don't really understand how to outsmart Old E. It had a giant range and no particle.

In this case, I agree. I was applying the logic more to a player attempting to attack Veigar, rather than one at the edge case. However, in repurposing Event Horizon into an area trap rather than a clear cc (as Riot has been doing with the changes), you lose the ability to use the spell entirely on fleeing characters. If anything, this is where I'd push for my #2 suggestion (below) - I'm perfectly fine with the champion being able to avoid the stun because their reaction times were quick and they were forced to hit 's' and stop moving (completely possible against the compensation present in old E) for a split second and proceed to juke the hell out of my Q and W (their just reward for dodging my one CC), but when it reaches the point of "If Veigar casts his stun just keep walking away you'll be fine" it just seems wrong to me.

Do you feel this way on other delayed CC champions? Concretely, if you play Vel'koz, do you feel like you have control of the play?

Again, apples and oranges. With Vel'Koz, I feel as though landing my low-mana Q from extreme range and ridiculous angles gives me the ability to control my playstyle until I feel the need to commit with my other spells. The range on my skillset is sufficient that, so long as I keep my R (with it's innate slow) focused on the enemy (an act entirely player-controlled, with minimal mechanical limitation), I feel confident that I achieved control of my playstyle and used the champion to the best of my ability. The issue arises in that with Veigar, no matter how well I poke with Q, there is no way that I can realistically commit. If I drop down Event Horizon perfectly, the enemy is just going to walk out and there is absolutely nothing I can do. Case in point, this also removes my ability to poke with a W-E-Q (my preferred method of harass when I have a blue buff in lane), simply because there's no way I can land W. It fails to serve as a trap or a stun, and in that it feels horrible to even put points into the skill.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

In this instance, I fail to see the logic, simply for how the CC synergizes with the kit of the respective champion.

I was simply comparing the buttons directly. For example, New Veigar E is better than Nami Q.

To me, your comment points at the solution here. I don't think New E is broken. I think the parts of Veigar's kit that expected E to be reliable CC need to be adapted to the new world where he doesn't. I'm pretty happy with Q, but not at all happy with W.

It's the idea of reliability again, in a nutshell. If I cast a spell to the best of my ability, it feels wrong to me that it will give me no benefit, aside from the brief thought of "Wow, if that champion had stood still for .75 seconds I would've had them"

Casting a skillshot CC to the best of your ability, and having it miss, is a very common instance for almost every CC champion. I don't believe reliable CC is coming back to Veigar, and the question is what to do with the kit now.

Again, apples and oranges. With Vel'Koz, I feel as though landing my low-mana Q from extreme range and ridiculous angles gives me the ability to control my playstyle until I feel the need to commit with my other spells.

Here again, I'm mostly hearing that Veigar's other buttons aren't good enough to survive E being unreliable. I agree with that take.

Here's a thought experiment for you. Suppose that we replaced Veigar W with a verbatim copy of Xerath W. Would you feel sufficiently in control of the fight?

Xaviertrix1 votes

I think that's a nice way of putting the issue: Veigar's kit was intended for use in a combo. Individually, his skills are all mediocre, but the ability to land three flat damaging abilities in quick consistent succession made it work to magnificent degree. Without that, he's such with several lackluster abilities with no synergy.

I guess that's what the Event Horizon nerf did; removed his ability synergy. Now the innate weaknesses of his kit are showing.

With regard to replacing the skill with Xerath's W, I again bring up the car of ability mesh. I would just become a zone mage with two long-range, semi-reliable medium-high damage skills (Veigar Q and Xerath W), never put a point into E and just play the poke game. He'd become a mini worse Xerath.

On that topic, though, I think looking at other skills may be the key to a happy solution. If the Event Horizon idea remains as horrible as I believe it to be, I'd look to Swain's Nevermove. That ability presents a clear counterplay (move out of the thing) but in return offers the valuable CC that Veigar's QER relies on. I'm not sure how it would translate into the ring (though at this point I'm not against the idea of scraping the ability, iconic it may be), but something along the lines of a reward proportionate to the warning (zoning potential be damned) is something I think would better fit his kit than the ridiculous semi-trap that it's currently trying to be.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

{quoted}

I think that's a nice way of putting the issue: Veigar's kit was intended for use in a combo. Individually, his skills are all mediocre, but the ability to land three flat damaging abilities in quick consistent succession made it work to magnificent degree. Without that, he's such with several lackluster abilities with no synergy.

Good take.

With regard to replacing the skill with Xerath's W, I again bring up the car of ability mesh. I would just become a zone mage with two long-range, semi-reliable medium-high damage skills (Veigar Q and Xerath W), never put a point into E and just play the poke game. He'd become a mini worse Xerath.

My theory here is that a landed Xerath W, if you hit it in the center zone of heavy slow, would make a followup E quite reasonable to land, or at least force some panic move from the opponent. It's not going to catch LeBlanc, but you'd have a good chance landing such a combo against an opposing Xerath.

I do think your concern about Veigar becoming too pokey a mage is reasonable. I think he wants to be more like Syndra than like Xerath. I think her design proves that Riot is still willing to support a mage with big burst damage, so long as there is some setup work involved.

On that topic, though, I think looking at other skills may be the key to a happy solution. If the Event Horizon idea remains as horrible as I believe it to be, I'd look to Swain's Nevermove. That ability presents a clear counterplay (move out of the thing) but in return offers the valuable CC that Veigar's QER relies on. I'm not sure how it would translate into the ring (though at this point I'm not against the idea of scraping the ability, iconic it may be), but something along the lines of a reward proportionate to the warning (zoning potential be damned) is something I think would better fit his kit than the ridiculous semi-trap that it's currently trying to be.

I think you're way too down on New E. It's still a button with a lot of uses. It remains amazing for objective control and while it's not good at initiating anymore, it is totally fantastic as followup CC.

It's just that the rest of his kit was built around E being unbelievable, and now that it's just another good CC button the rest of the buttons aren't able to pick up the slack.

Xaviertrix1 votes

Agreed on all points; and I suppose I am biased. I've always treasured Veigar's ability to pick his target (just like every other assassin and burst mage), and I'm having trouble believing that Riot is making to remove his ability to do so - as such, I'll probably keep pushing for an E that lets him actually single out a squishy for as long as I have hope.

All I know is that it brings me mental and physical discomfort to play with the current unreliable E - while it may just be a gut/habitual feeling that I've developed over these three years, I think it unjust to remove the feel-good aspects of a champion in the name of an ideal that it didn't need to fit under. No rework (save for Karma, and for a time, Soraka) has done this, I see no reason to destroy a fan base because a compromise can't be made between a passionate player base and a group of people who have the power to dictate balance.

Hell, look at Lee. A slew of nerfs were in the pipeline for him, and when everyone was dissatisfied they were modified. I still hold hope for Veigar's CC, in this regard.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

{quoted}

Agreed on all points; and I suppose I am biased. I've always treasured Veigar's ability to pick his target (just like every other assassin and burst mage), and I'm having trouble believing that Riot is making to remove his ability to do so - as such, I'll probably keep pushing for an E that lets him actually single out a squishy for as long as I have hope.

All I know is that it brings me mental and physical discomfort to play with the current unreliable E - while it may just be a gut/habitual feeling that I've developed over these three years,

I feel for you. I really do. At the same time, I'm pretty sure reliable E stuns are a thing of the past. It's just not compatible with Riot's modern League design philosophy.

The silver lining here is that New Veigar has a much higher chance of being able to stay legitimately good. Possibly you'll see another Cassiopeia situation, where many of the core playerbase are upset about the feel of the kit, but the power level is quite a bit higher than the old kit.

I think it unjust to remove the feel-good aspects of a champion in the name of an ideal that it didn't need to fit under. No rework (save for Karma, and for a time, Soraka) has done this, I see no reason to destroy a fan base because a compromise can't be made between a passionate player base and a group of people who have the power to dictate balance.

Champion reworks often rub the core fanbase of a champion the wrong way. These all happened in the past year.

Cassiopeia poison mage players are still flipping tables on boards almost every day. Xerath became a better champion, but his core playerbase from pre-rework really hates that his reliable stun into burst combo (sound familiar?) is gone. Sona was the aura champion. She's totally different now. Many upset Sonas still exist. Turns out she's probably weaker too, so they're doubly unhappy.

Kaxi2 votes

I do believe that Veigar will never see any significant play unless they dump the delay and go to what you've described in Points 2 or 3. Point 4 might just kill his identity, and they're trying too hard to make it "fair". If the enemy can see the Horizon as it's coming up for .25 seconds, that should be enough time to avoid the stun and either be trapped inside or barely getting outside. It's still a HUGE area inside the gate, making it still easy to dodge skill-shots (Q and W) or even just blink out (ie Zed, Ezreal). I'm hating the E change; he needs RELIABILITY, and I completely agree with your point: "It feels genuinely horrible even if you got a kill, because you feel less like you did something awesome and more because the enemy was stupid enough to walk into the extremely obvious, almost stupid traps you set down."

Riot, make me feel whole as a Veigar player, again, please....

Kögâ2 votes

Its fine for champs to have instant dashes. But not okay for immobile champs to have instant cc.

Rito logic

SquatingDuck2 votes

Just an idea:

Q: fine W: shorten drop time R: alright

E: leave it at the 0.75 sec delay, but during that .75 seconds it applies a slow ( let's say 15% plus 1% for every 50 AP)... That way you can maybe catch them for easily the stronger you get.

And how about little bonuses to E, to torment the people inside:

  1. when your Q hits a minon or champ in the horizon on its first or second hit, it keeps going it's full range hit everything in its path (might need to cap the amount of AP you can get on one Q or this could make it so you can scale very fast if you do it on minon pools)
  2. gain a stack of W for each champ "caged" that is free mana and deals 10-20% damage of W.

Just my thoughts

Xaviertrix1 votes

I really like the idea of a medium-strong slow in the area! The other suggestions are interesting too, but don't really serve to tackle the issue of an unreliable QW that has arisen since E was olaf'd.

And while I'd be loath to reduce the drop time on W, I understand how it doesn't fit as well, anymore (I'm just so used to it).

SquatingDuck1 votes

{quoted}

I really like the idea of a medium-strong slow in the area! The other suggestions are interesting too, but don't really serve to tackle the issue of an unreliable QW that has arisen since E was olaf'd.

And while I'd be loath to reduce the drop time on W, I understand how it doesn't fit as well, anymore (I'm just so used to it).

yea .... true, it was fairly nice to hit a stunned target, haha

What if (keeping what I said above) ... but add in: while casting W in the horizon makes it have a fall time of damn near instant and a slightly increased area, that way it could be a bit more reliable and that the only people who could avoid it (if they have good reflexes) would be those who can poof away (like LB). It's not the same as having them stunned and dropping a W, but it'd be better then what we have now

Hyrum Graff2 votes

I think RIot needs to take a whole pass at Veigar from a thematic perspective, putting aside his current kit for the moment, and ask, "What is compelling about Veigar? How can we preserve that in a healthy way?"

I don't claim to have the answers to those questions, but here are my thoughts:

  • Strong, single-target ult burst is important. Veigar is the quintessential burst mage.
    • Secondary here: in order to be a burst mage, Veigar must be able to combo every one of his damaging skills.
    • Third: I'm not sure whether the damage on enemy's AP is necessary. It's certainly fun, but while it does create some interesting interactions, I'm still going to ult whatever squishy I catch first, not necessarily the apc.
  • Q stacking minigame is important. Veigar is the quintessential late-game champion.
  • Veigar is the Tiny Master of Evil (not a short joke, I promise)
    • What does this mean? I think it means he has to feel scary and simultaneously vulnerable. I think this is best achieved with a glass cannon build -> that needs to be incentivized.
    • I'll buy into the fantasy of "Trap your opponents and torment them," if that's something worth going for.

I'm not going to try to build a kit from these right now because I don't have the time, but thoughts on the ideas?

Xaviertrix1 votes

A well-phrased assessment. Again, my primary concern is that from a gameplay perspective, the current E is crippling Veigar's ability to feel satisfying as a burst mage, however the thematic argument brings up valid points.

  • The 80% AP scaling on the ultimate has never been something I was extremely proud of. To me, Kassadin was anti-mage, and Veigar was raw damage. I'd honestly prefer a removal of that bonus, kind of random power to bring back a mediocrum of reliability in control.

  • The combo, as was mentioned, is pivotal. His QWR do literally nothing but damage, leaving them mediocre as standalones. Only when you can nail all three does it actually work. Even if Riot despises the idea of giving control back to Veigar payers, they can't deny that "pray your E lands" is a fun or healthy play style.

  • I'm not against the trap idea itself, it's just that the execution currently is, frankly, rubbish. It only works under very specific circumstances and most of the time fails to actually trap anything. Burst mages need some degree of reliability in landing their damage, and if Event Horizon could give at least an 80% success rate if used perfectly it would be all he needs. The suggestion below about an internal slow sounds like a great idea to try out!

Thanks for the insights!

Xaviertrix1 votes

And by success rate, I don't mean stun - I mean the use of the ability allows him to execute the rest of his combo, regardless of whether or not hard cc is applied to the target. To me, zone xontrol - while lovely - didn't tie into Veigar's identity as much as the ability to explode a given target.

Thryale1 votes

problem is, if veig does lose that .8 ap ratio, his ult will literally have nothing that makes it worthy of being called an ult. (other than being a point and click, and liss has that with no travel time + hard cc + aoe dmg)

Xaviertrix1 votes

At the same time, however, I feel as though that was a rather unfair, situational means of adding power to a spell it honestly didn't need. Perhaps a return to the 1.2AP scaling, but I never felt like that random .8 enemy scaling is what defined Primordial Burst.

Thryale1 votes

it doesn't define it now. But back when there was only 50-70 champs, it was one of the defining features that made veigar veigar. Back then he was the anti-mage mage. And kassaden was the anti-mage assassin.

But now, the game has evolved where burst isn't nearly as unique, and mobility is king. Which is why veig's stun has become the core reason you play veigar, cuz it stops all, mobile champ or not (or used to at least).

Thryale2 votes

I wish I had 20 or 30 smurfs so that I could upvote this more. But I hope my meager 1 upvote will suffice.

That being said. I never took his reliability for granted. His reliability was the whole reason I played him! He was simple and straight forward, with relatively little mechanical hurdles to jump over. And that's how I like my champs.

Honestly, to those saying that his E was "holding him back" don't know what they are talking about. Ever since riot removed DFG, I actually felt like I was performing better with veigar. I adopted a 9% spell vamp runes and mastery set up and rushed morello's, this allowed me all the sustain I'd ever need, which in turn let me farm my q easily. By the time I hit lvl 9, I could easily trade with my lane opponent and get easy kills, all while getting 4-6 stacks per wave (depended on whether my creeps were jerks or not)

But now with veig's reliability gutted, I don't have anyone to go to. I've been trying all kinds of champs lately, but nothing fills that hole like old veig did. I miss the extreme joy that veig's old RQ combo onto a squishy mage/adc brought.

Yes the stun is a shadow of it's former self, but what I really want back right now is the point and click Q. I hate the new skill shot. It shoves my lane when I don't want it shoved, and it's greatly pushing veigar into a poke mage role instead of his identity as a single target burst mage.

Chespin20131 votes

couldn't have said it better myself its sad that riot is just favoring some champs and leave the other ones people love to play left behind i honestly just feel like going on strike in front of the riots building dressed in veiger cosplay of course and state my mind as a concerned player. The whole idea of riot lying to us veiger mains when they said he would get compensated for his dfg loss just irk me something fierce and than they go and gut him and say he needed rework when his whole kit was fin. His kit is what attracted me to him in the first place and being able to punish people out of position and make immobile champs a nightmare to show kid your not getting out of here unless u have some get out of jail free item like you said. Maybe I'm asking too much but I think and many other players were definitely fine with veiger before he was never a real problem to begin with and now i hear there's gonna be more nerfs alone the way i guess veiger is becoming the new elise of the midlane now. Hope your happy riot your proving to us all what you want to happen in your game but let me tell you guys something just because you made the game doesn't just make it only yours this is the communities game we play, we laugh, we socialize, and we connect with it sorry riot maybe I'm talking crazy here but this game belongs to everyone its not just your cash wad its part of peoples lives.

Curling Veigar1 votes

I want them to buff his W or R. His E and Q are fine.

Saianna1 votes

What if Veigars event horizon expands from the center to its normal 5 walled cage?

Also Q imo requires: a.) Huge range buff or b.) huge range buff after 1st baleful strike hit. So it would have the range to hit someone behind.

LoRdJeSuS69694201 votes

Agreed. His ability to trade in lane has been completely destroyed--how can he even get near an annie, orianna, swain, malzahar, etc. the way things are now? Even if you "trap" them inside the circle AND get lucky enough to hit the w, they are simply going to out trade you. The safety of the stun was needed for him to survive in lane, and I feel like it was well balanced by the fact that it was 1) unreliable (difficult to land on a randomly moving target, even though it had almost no delay), 2) his only defensive spell, meaning that when it was on its 20 second CD he was very vulnerable to ganks and zoning from farm, and 3) cost a large chunk of mana.

And don't even get me started on champions like katarina or leblanc who just blink to you...

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