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The biggest issue with the 2019 ranked format

Giliorius··40 votes·15,324 views

Unless I've missed something, it seems to me that since you'll be ranked for each role, and that matchmaking will reflect your skill in the role you are assigned, players swapping roles in champ select will really screw over this system.

First, if I say play Mid primary and Bot secondary, and am given Bot (or filled somewhere) in a game, but I ask if I can mid, and the mid person says ok (as happens from time to time) I'm going to be playing mid but the game will count to my bot rank. This could be fixed I guess by having the game work out where you're playing, rather than what you were assigned, but the next issue is the real killer.

Second, if matchmaking takes position to account, if I am say, a Diamond level Mid, but a gold level adc, and get given bot, my skill for matchmaking will be taken as that of a gold player. However if I swap roles to mid, I am now a diamond player, playing in a gold game, which is a real screw up for the system, and would make for a horrid experience for the 5 enemies, especially the mid.

Another issue I see with this, is as for me, I play mid pretty much exclusively, except when I have to play another role because im placed in my secondary or filled, and the mid didn't want to swap, so with this system, when I'm filled or given bot, the game has significantly less meaning for me, since it won't contribute to my mid main rank. This not only makes the game feel less engaging for me, but also means im less likely to try as hard as I would usually, since its almost like a normal for me, not affecting the rank I care about.

Please riot don't go ahead with this rank per role thing, its really dumb and has many flaws, 2 I've mentioned but others in other posts too

44 Comments

DerMangoJoghurt12 votes

Those are all problems Riot is aware of

One more thing: we know competitive intent is a big deal in Ranked, so we’ll be rolling out new systems to help combat situations where players don’t take games in off-positions seriously. One plan grants bonuses for winning secondary and autofill games that apply the next time you play your primary position. We’re also looking at new penalties to help ensure Ranked stays hardcore.

We’re solving a number of other edge cases like these, including position swapping in champion select or in game, and we’ll talk more about our solutions for those in future updates.

Source

sKz Aaron D24 votes

I have no faith in Riot's ability to figure this stuff out after a year of, "Solo queue is coming back. Solo queue is never coming back. Solo queue is coming back. Here's a half hour video explaining that solo queue is never coming back. Solo queue is back! It was just a prank, LUL!" and then a year of Ardent Censer being broken, and known to be broken the entire time. Month after month of people in plat being thrown into master level games after half an hour queue times for the masters.

No faith at all that they can figure this stuff out.

The past few months have been characterized with, "Why can trolls get away with inting and afking so much?" and Riot's big response is that they'll be rolling out new systems next season to try to combat that. This season isn't even halfway over yet. And the solution to this issue is to wait until next year?

I repeat, no faith at all.

Giliorius7 votes

I mean riot has fixed a lot of its mistakes, a quote from Churchill goes:

"Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.”

Which can also imo be applied to Riot, it was the case with SoloQ vs Dynamic, with the rengar and Leblanc reworks, with runes, and I hope with all this as well, riot does fix most of the problems with league, but only after they've created said problems and then let them fester for a bit

sKz Aaron D8 votes

Do you want them to repeat that process of creating a problem and letting it fester for a year or simply admit that they may not have it right from the outset and just not do it - or at least delay it - if it seems like it could do more harm than good?

MatthewTh05 votes

For the record, that's not a legitimate Churchill quote. Also, it originally referred to "men and nations" not "Americans", but it was co-opted for Anti-American sentiment. By the way, Americans really aren't that bad if you get to know some :P.

DarkSoul19942 votes

You had me at "I have no faith in Riot's ability".

Honestly, Riot needs to stop fucking with the Ranked System. Every. Fucking. Year.

haaaaaaalp10 votes

You have to remember that we aren't comparing the new ranked mode against a perfect ranked mode. A perfect ranked mode doesn't exist.

You have to compare it to the current ranked mode which is completely unprepared to deal with autofill. The new ranked system isn't perfect but it will at least handle autofill and off roles far better than the current one.

Beast Brawler1 votes

A perfect ranked mode doesn't exist because nobody's made it yet ;)

Mig892 votes

A perfect ranked mode doesnt exist because its not possible. No game has it. One person having an off day can make you think a teammate doesnt deserve to be in your game. Human perception and emotion are the reason it cant happen. Chess is the only thing close imo and thats because its the same game every game with no changing variables.

Call Me Nana4 votes

Im more concerned about 'hey im a mage mid main, but you've given me support. Guess im taking my mage to the bot lane'

isnt helping us getBrand out of the support role anytime soon.

Karunamon1 votes

Dumb question: what's wrong with Brand support? Wasn't it a stated goal to have more champions in different roles?

IainG101 votes

Leaving his item-less damage aside, because the balance issue is not the question here; the problem is that (at least in lower tiers) it is not uncommon for someone to take a mage that can support (e.g. Brand or Lux ), get a item 3303 , then never upgrade it and build full damage, until the point where they can farm on their own, and then they sell the item 3303 and continue building like a midlaner

Karunamon1 votes

Right, but that's a viable strategy isn't it? I don't see immediately why it's a problem that must be fixed is what I'm saying.

IainG101 votes

I mean, you end up with fuck-all vision, and a mostly dead and certainly behind ADC and/or midlaner because the 'support' has decided they are a carry. Oh, and a lot of 4v5s because the 'support' is off in a sidelane catching up on farm....

Building a damage-based supp is fine if you actually supp, deciding that 'fuck Riot, I'm the carry here' is a problem; it's the player not the champion that's an issue.

Mig891 votes

The ranked changes wont fix people not understanding how to play the game and thats not the intended fix. The fix is where you play against these low ranked "supports' who dont know how to build, youll get matched against equally low skilled people. The proposed ranked changes wont change the way people play support.

IainG101 votes

No, but it should hopefully get them out of games with people who are competent and take their roles seriously

Call Me Nana1 votes

{quoted}

Dumb question: what's wrong with Brand support? Wasn't it a stated goal to have more champions in different roles?

i cant tell if this is a troll question, or you're just legitimately ignorant to how cancerous this champion is.

WiegrafOfValor4 votes

My problem are duos, let's say I'm a D1 support and my friend is a D2 ADC, but I never play ADC and he never plays support.

What will hold us for duo queueing for the opposite roles (Me as ADC and him as Support) and them just swapping roles every game, meaning will be essentially been boosting our off roles by being two Diamond players playing against a bunch of silver and gold?

Mig891 votes

How's it any different than now...

TheGreatNinx2 votes

You repeated yourself twice in here. So it's really just two problems. Asking for a role that your placed higher in but you are in role that is lower in rank. Which I would just look at as smurfing with out actually needing a second account but there is another problem with this which I will address in the answer for your second concern. Now about the auto filled thing. They are giving out rewards for winning a game on your secondary or auto filled role which is supposed to (To what extent of a reward I am not sure they didn't say anything specific) to give you more incentive to win that game. Now this causes a problem, let's say you are auto filled or got your second dairy role and you asked to switch and they are okay with it. Now you are getting rewarded for playing a role you're higher ranked in while being auto filled or secondary role which shouldn't happen. There obvious exploits they are going have to look at on this reward system which riot is always keen on. Now if you have problem with smurfing then that's another problem all together since riot doesn't look at that as a problem.

Venomar3 votes

{quoted}

You repeated yourself twice in here. So it's really just two problems. Asking for a role that your placed higher in but you are in role that is lower in rank. Which I would just look at as smurfing with out actually needing a second account but there is another problem with this which I will address in the answer for your second concern. Now about the auto filled thing. They are giving out rewards for winning a game on your secondary or auto filled role which is supposed to (To what extent of a reward I am not sure they didn't say anything specific) to give you more incentive to win that game. Now this causes a problem, let's say you are auto filled or got your second dairy role and you asked to switch and they are okay with it. Now you are getting rewarded for playing a role you're higher ranked in while being auto filled or secondary role which shouldn't happen. There obvious exploits they are going have to look at on this reward system which riot is always keen on. Now if you have problem with smurfing then that's another problem all together since riot doesn't look at that as a problem.

I'm sure there's a very easy way to track where a player spent most of thier time CSing for the first 7 minutes of the game that would prevent all of this. Give minions different tags and codes so when you kill them they register as top mid jungle or bot to determine final role played. If you buy a support item and don't CS much, obviously a support, jungle item and camps etc. There's multiple analytical systems(builds, initial lane opponent, and CS location come to mind first and foremost) that COULD be Implimented too, when working together, very accurately determine the role you finished the game in, as opposed to the one you started with in champ select.

Whether or not riot will do this is another thing.

SweedishGunner2 votes

The system is just dumb and seems completely redundant.

Venomar2 votes

You are missing something. LP is LP. MMR is MMR. Your MMR in an off role will be less stable to begin with, and probably lower than your actual role because smaller sample size, unless you always Stomp your off role. In which case if you do Stomp your off role, the loses against higher opponents will correct it much quicker becuase of the smaller sample size.

MMR differences between roles will not be huge anyways, a division or two, three at the VERY most when it comes to primary vs secondary. And so, is there much difference between a silver 3 Support and a silver 1 support? Ehhhh... Mechanically, I'd say not, that should come down to game knowledge wich has nothing to do with what role you play, you should understand the entirety of the game. When you get higher up, and the games are tighter, sure, but there's also the caveat that the higher you go the more willing (usually) players are to switch around and get everyone on to a comfortable role.

LP sets your general placement on the ladder, MMR fine tunes it. All these changes will do is prevent a 1424 MMR game vs 1430 MMR game from becoming one where Top is 1380 mmr vs 1480 mmr, and vice versa in say, mid for the other team. It will shrink the MMR differences of the opponents in the lane. So instead of top getting shit on on one team, and mid getting shit on by the other (and two players basically having thier game fucked by the matchmaker) the "high MMR" players in that game will be in the same lane against each other. You'll still have a stronger and better opponent on the other team( and teammate on yours) but won't have to deal with them directly from the start of the game and auto lose/win becuase of it.

I'd imagine, LP will still be aggregated based on the total team MMR to protect abuse by duo smurfs and boosters. Overall MMR Will and has to still be a factor or you'll end up with several divisions of difference across the roles and a total cluster fuck of games. The games are probably going to be exactly the same MMR wise as far as total allowed difference goes, with tighter limitations on the difference of who is allowed to opposite you're role. If it isn't, then there's literally no point to this change. If it is, then swapping roles with somebody in champ select will be functionally exactly the same as it is now given there's a cap on the total difference allowed on the overall MMR of the team. Currently you run the risk of being up against a main or smurf and someone significantly better than you in said role that you're Autofilled into or swap with. After that change, the risk will be the same, but with more emphasis on when you do get games in your own role, it will be more consistent and enjoyable.

That's how I understand it anyways.

One last edit. Maybe MMR is factored across all roles, so of you do get Autofilled as a ~1300 support against another ~1300 support, when you're usually a 1400 midlane. Would that still also not Improve the game quality instead of just getting paired against an enemy 1400 support because "overall MMR"? To the people saying these changes pigeon hole people Into roles, wouldn't that encourage you to play off roles if you're opponent isn't going to be miles better than you EVERY single time you get filled? Maybe you don't get as much LP if you win, but you enjoyed the game more and still won?

Karunamon1 votes

But only MMR is used for matchmaking, right? My understanding was that the LP system is kind of bolted on as a "less volatile" depiction of your skill, but the hidden MMR is actually used for determining who you play with.

Mig891 votes

Exactly. You might get your off-role that has 200 MMR lower than your main. Next year it will try to match you skill wise against someone equal. They might have a higher rank but their mmr in that role will be closer to you.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

Unless I've missed something, it seems to me that since you'll be ranked for each role, and that matchmaking will reflect your skill in the role you are assigned, players swapping roles in champ select will really screw over this system.

This already exist with people that are autofilled into roles just in reverse. This is a neutral change.

Another issue I see with this, is as for me, I play mid pretty much exclusively, except when I have to play another role because im placed in my secondary or filled, and the mid didn't want to swap, so with this system, when I'm filled or given bot, the game has significantly less meaning for me, since it won't contribute to my mid main rank. This not only makes the game feel less engaging for me, but also means im less likely to try as hard as I would usually, since its almost like a normal for me, not affecting the rank I care about.

There is plenty of people who already passive int and hard feed when autofilled i don't think this really changes anything. Moreover the solution riot already said they're tossing around is giving you bonus LP on your main role for the game after your off role wins. Which too me already solves the problems

Please riot don't go ahead with this rank per role thing, its really dumb and has many flaws, 2 I've mentioned but others in other posts too

Disagree it's much better then the current system and is one of the best ideas Riot has had in years

T4underbolt1 votes

Maybe because it will be easier for you to get duo boosted as this system supports and encourages elo boosting. Maybe stop for once praising riot whenever they sneeze. Unless you are biased to the roots and there is no hope for you to think logically.

Mig891 votes

How does the new system encourage duo boosting more than what we have now. If you duo'd with someone in the future youll get boosted until you stop playing with them. If you get boosted now you get boosted until you stop playing with someone. Next year you can see easir if someone is boosted from playing bnecause one role will be much higher than the others. Right now if you get boosted your overall rank is just higher than it should be. I dont see any difference other than next year itll be obvious when someone is a diamond support and silver in every other role.

T4underbolt1 votes

Whatever. It even sounds stupid when saying "silver in mid, diamond in jungle". There is no point in having separate ranks. I don't need to be told that for example Janna abuser in supp can be diamond but in other roles he is actually bronze. It's a fact that I don't need to know. This system will just add an excessive amount of useless not needed info that will only make it dumb to climb with because the moment you get your secondary role or autofill you will get rank for that position. So it forces you to climb in other roles too if you want consistency in displayed rank.

Pandeonor1 votes

{quoted}

This already exist with people that are autofilled into roles just in reverse. This is a neutral change.

..... giving you bonus LP on your main role for the game after your off role wins. ......

This seems a bit confusing in terms of not being a neutral change. There is a possibility of screwing the system?

I enter top and my duo-mate sup for queue. In champ select we change the role. We will both get LP for the role and bonus LP for winning off-role? Or not?

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

It will probably only affect solo queue. The system is only on solo/duo queue anyway so chances are if you are seen as constantly role swapping with the same person then it will probably go against you. Also, chances are you are going to make more LP in the long run by just playing your main roles instead of 1 win off role 1 win main role (despite both games you going mid for example).

Pandeonor1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X5KTPBWl,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2018-04-26T09:16:40.711+0000)

if you are seen as constantly role swapping with the same person then it will probably go against you

How?

Can´t be seen imho.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

The system knows what role you're going. The mastery system knows proves riot code knows if you are solo laning, jungling, support, whatever. Also, the game knows who you are premade with since the honor system also proves this. Another sign they can keep track of this stuff is the end of season thing they showed everyone had a section of who you played the most with meaning that IS something that is kept track of.

Also, as said in my comment was chances are it isn't going to affect duos at all and if it does it will be at a reduced rate similar to honor. We have 9 months before this stuff goes live. It's in alpha stages. It could get scrapped or heavily altered. Let's not jump to abuse cases when riot has acknowledged they exist in the very post talking about these systems.

Pandeonor1 votes

The system only knows wich lane I logged in. There is no chance at all for the program to see which role I was really going if I swap in champ select. ;)

Such obvious cases are the ones wich have to be discussed before introducing.

Spoofghoul2 votes

i fondly remember pick order

You didn't know which position you got until it was your time to pick a champ/position

You had better enter ranked prepared to play any position

this catering to casuals, here is the role and champ you want to playmade it so nobody plays the current least favorable position which drived up queue times and then we got autofill which gets bitched and moaned about because said casual can only play yasuo mid but now he has to support so now we get a system which tries to fix that and make him play vs real crappy opponents so he can pad himself on the shoulder for being awesome as yasuo support Meanwhile people are trolling the system with laneswaps and the people who can't play 100 games a day anymore cause life happened are now deincentivized to play anything but their otp in their otp lane or be stuck in woodleage

this ranked system is getting more retarded everyseason

trunoob4131 votes

Not entirely sure how it works but my understanding is you have your ranks for each role but you also have an overall placement similair to what we have now but I'm not sure how it takes those into account or if/ how they affect your overall placement

D4M2X01 votes

gonna be fun as a fill/knowledge player, being chal in role and D5 in another even if my D5 role is my best role, D5 is impossible to get out of even in my main role unless i LUCK my way out of it, i can play any role in high elo cause people know what to do.

pointless changes aimed at people that dont want to learn the game and not give a fuck in their low elo role which makes it harder for people that just want to enjoy the game and get better.

riot, SCRAP THESE CHANGES. you didnt listen to us about dynamicQ, LISTEN TO US THIS TIME. but wait, you wont. youl just revert it half way through season 9.

Lauchmelder1 votes

The notes sounded** to me** like they'd like to guarantee your primary or secondary role next season.

Aka autofill might get removed

Karunamon2 votes

The only possible way that's going to happen is if they decide to say "screw it, 10 minute queues but no more autofill"

I'd be fine with this - better ten minutes in queue than half an hour in a doomed game.

Zed genius1 votes

inb4 they make role swapping reportable and bannable offence lul

Spârky1 votes

The way around this issue would be that if you position swap it still gives you the mmr for the role you got. So say you got bot like in your example and swapped with mid you would gain rank in your bot role still. That way after a few games even if you get your off role it wouldn't matter if you swap roles since your "off" role is similar rank to that of your main role.

EyasHawk1 votes

That would basically completely negate the purpose of role specialisation to begin with (which they claimed to be making the game fair for players who get auto-filled to a role they are worse at).

sKz Aaron D1 votes

"After a few games" How many lower elo games do you want that player to ruin. You don't magically climb from Silver 2 to Plat 5 after a few games. Even if you win like 95% of them, it will take like 30 wins.

Verxint1 votes

People really need to read that thing before they comment. The ranks aren't 100% separate, you're not going to get a diamond player in a gold game

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