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As much as Auto fill is a good concept on paper, it ruins too many games [Diamond 2+ (Diamond+)]

Whiisp··62 votes·17,409 views

  1. Previous Post Was Deleted due to Wrong Board. So here it is again as the previous post brought a lot of traction.

  2. I can only speak for Diamond+ (D2+) As well as for the more Competitive player base rather than the more casual who would rather play game faster.

  3. Keep in mind, this does not mean Auto Fill needs to be removed to fix the problem. It simply is the problem currently and need to be tweaked at the very least and reviewed to better adapt to Diamond+.(Maybe other Elo too, I can personally only speak for what I know.)

But it is a massive problem right now that is not being addressed. I am not joking when I say 3 out of 4 champ select are dodged or trolled because someone did not get the role that they wanted. Toxicity, fine, you can mute. But auto fill just forces you to play with someone locking in troll champions in said role because they are not interested in playing that game. And tbh, I understand and feel what they are feeling because I don't want to play Jungle for example either and get hard flamed by diamond players thinking I can somehow out jungle a D2+ jungle main.

  • The amount of ticket I have placed in the last month alone about champion select held hostage because someone did not get their role, troll picks with ghost/cleanse. People being targeted on Int/Dodge list is disgusting. And I cannot keep making tickets every day because nothing will change.

  • I understand it is for faster queue, but if my queue is 30 seconds, and I get auto filled MID LANE(yes this happens a lot)... Something is clearly wrong with your system if it can't wait an extra minute to find someone in the most played role.(And that translate to other roles too.) The higher the rank, the more this should be looked at.

  • Take the latest CoreJJ Tweet about how NA SoloQ is garbage and needs to be taken seriously by players in order for the region to get better at worlds. Then that certainly is one of the steps to take. By removing auto fill you remove the trolls in that aspect of the game. I can guarantee you, in d2+ we don't care about queue times. We want quality games because at that level, most people don't just play the game just to play, many of us play it because we want to be the best or to hit challenger, some play amateur or even for some with pro dreams. Nothing messes with your mental more than having to lane bot lane with a lee sin support. TBH, lower that to even D4, where people are even worse in their trolling... Ask any high elo players, low diamond is the hardest to carry because of this... People don't try if they are not given what they want. So either u ban everyone, or remove auto fill for #1.

  • At the very least, take the time and dedicate one of you're staff to creating a survey sent to the player base. Put it on the client, if you want to separate rank because the answers may differ ? Then do so. But PLEASE, for the love of..., save your players mental and take at least this one step in the right direction.

  • If most players want auto fill, then look, majority wins. But give your players a chance to voice what they want and please, let us know the results too !?

Keep in mind, Auto Fill does not need to be removed for it to be fixed. It needs to be at the very least tweaked and updated to what is currently happening. If adding a 3rd role to select from is a solution, good, do that. There's a multitude of different things you can do to mix things up and even get an in between that would already be better than what it is right now. It simply needs to be revised.

Auto fill as a concept is a good idea on paper, however, the way the player base responds to it, makes it a terrible implementation. If a good idea brings ; trolling, inting, toxicity and ff's a 3 minutes in the game because the player does not want to play/ints. Is it then a good idea still ? I personally, along with many others, do not think so.

119 Comments

Kyaza23 votes

removing it in Diamond+ seems like a good idea because at that point getting autofilled to a role you dont play is basically asking for a loss. though i think for the lower ranks it is fine because of how quickly the game can turn around

Whiisp16 votes

And the higher the rank the more this applies. A challenger Support main vs a challenger mid lane main is just disgusting skill difference for example.

Whiisp23 votes

I'm Seeing a Crap ton of comment about how the queue time would be this and that and that it would not work etc etc. Keep in mind, this post is mainly to bring attention to the way it's projecting toxicity and trolling in way more games than it should and the fact that 30 seconds queues should not be a thing at this elo if it gives you too many auto fills. It can certainly wait 5 more minutes to give better quality in more games than right now.

This post is not necessarily to debate what stats would do to queue times or whatever, but to make Riot realize that something needs to change in order to remove the negative game experiences happening. If that means keeping auto fill but adding something else that works ? Listen... AWESOME, go for it. But nothing is being done currently to address this issue other than the overwhelmed tribunal and their lack of severity.

A lot of people are fine with being auto filled and will not troll if they end up being filled and this happens to both team so it's ''kinda fair''(What makes it unfair is when you have a jungler filled and they have a top filled, then role power makes a difference). And that is totally fine because game quality if they try is still there.

I don't have a problem with people sucking on a role more than anything. I have a problem with people joining champ select, get filled and then if it is not dodged and they die once, they call gg and leave the game at 3 minutes because they don't like the role therefore don't want to play A GAME, if it's not fun to them.(And that's one occurrence)

The Other Ideas in the vote is mainly targeted for this as I also seen many comments bringing suggestion about different system like role preferences, 3 roles selection etc. Keep bringing those.

Something simply needs to change, and the root cause of it is the way auto fill work at the moment, not how it is meant to work in a perfect world. (Yes it's a player base issue, but all riot can change is their system, they can't change their players. Only listen to them.)

GodHuntrS9 votes

Exactly. Well Said.

Alevity Xiaku2 votes

Riot can't make players play the game correctly. If someone doesn't take the game seriously that was their decision to do so. The only incentive is LP and the prospect of getting banned, as well as leaver buster. If these are not enough, there is no system to make other PEOPLE do what you want.

Whiisp2 votes

Suggest you read it again!

Alevity Xiaku1 votes

I'm telling you that people will still dodge and troll games. Making longer queue times will not prevent people from being toxic. If anything they could be MORE toxic because they waited 30 minutes to get in a losing game. Also what about one tricks like me who will dodge regardless?

Whiisp5 votes

You missed the point completely. Please read. We're not talking about removing toxicity as a whole here. We're talking about removing it in that aspect alone. Of course people will still dodge... like.... OF COURSE. lmao.

Thing is, people still dodging will be people who will have longer queues over time, so it's up to them. We remove one of the dodge causes and one of the troll aspect.

I'm not gonna write a 1k words text to help you read between the lines here as well for stuff that is grasped and commonly understood at Diamond+. You will have to do that on your own time, once you reach that rank.

Cheers

Alevity Xiaku1 votes

lol queue times don't only exist for diamond players nor does toxicity and autofill. If I had to wait 30 minutes for a game and have to dodge, I'm not gonna wait another 30 minutes. Because the probability someone else dodges is still the same either way. Toxicity isn't caused by autofill it's caused by players who don't want to win the game either way. There's a difference between queuing and getting dodges that accumulate to waiting 30 minutes (which I doubt but lets roll with it mr.diamond), and knowing every time I queue I have to wait 30 minutes. Because that's what low priority queue is like and that makes me not want to play the game anymore. Riot isn't gonna make a change that causes most players to want to quit. And newsflash, the boards are not most players.

I still think you grossly misunderstand how much longer queues would be if autofill was taken out. Especially at higher elos. The distributions of intended roles are not even. Someone else stated it perfectly, if there's 10,000 top laners and supports and the rest are mid, adc, jg players online, then only 10,000 games are possible while everyone has to wait. Autofill allows so any of those thousands of people to at least be put into a game. You already see it in Overwatch where queuing for damage is a lot longer than the other roles.

Someone losing their mental in a diamond game occurs just as frequently it's a coinflip and should just be inherent to playing league at this point. So you'd rather have dodges and trolls AND long queue times? Or shorter queue times, and the occasional bad game or dodge?

Whiisp4 votes

Missing the point. I'm not going to argue on stuff that is not even the main subject discussion.

Whiisp19 votes

Just to add to the point... We are already waiting a long time for games because people often dodge, are forced to dodge, or we are forced into a 15 minute FF right from champ select because someone refuses to just play the game. This turns them toxic towards your players and increases toxicity overall, when in fact, their hatred should be directed towards the system and not the players being auto filled. Surely I am not the only one who can see all those downsides ? How heavy must the upsides of it be for it to overpower all of these negative ones ?

The Bad Touch12 votes

Fill ruins games at all Elo's.

I'd say half of the games I play in silver that have int feeders/trolls come from someone being autofilled.

Jungle mains don't want to play ADC. Top mains don't want to play support. Mid mains don't want to Jungle. Ect.

Personally I'd rather wait another couple minutes than a 40 second queue pop that I'm probably just going to dodge anyway.

IainG104 votes

Gotta agree here; I will admit I know nothing about high Elo, but in S/G any team that has a Jungle Main auto-wins against filled Junglers.

Some of this I'm sure is to do with Riot's frankly stupid jungle changes, making the champs that used to be able to farm and stay relevant non-viable and forcing early fights for Scuttle. But a lot is to do with mechanical knowledge; when to gank which lane and playing around which objectives. Do you take drake or help Top secure/not lose First Tower? Will Elder or Baron help you close out the game vs an enemy turtle in their base?

And it's not like I wait long in the queue... As a Support Main I get in within about 15s. I'd certainly be happier to wait longer if there was a higher chance the people on my team actually knew their roles.

Whiisp4 votes

Precisely. And the higher you go, the bigger the difference between filled jungler as an example is apparent.

The thing is like you say, we are literally waiting no time at all for a game. If auto fill is not removed they can at least extend that by a few minutes to give us better quality more often. There's so many work around they can do.

Spoony Legs11 votes

I hard agree, I say D3+ should have it since D4 is full of boosted players and its population is high enough.

But back to the main point, I'm certain most high elo players would agree to wait an extra 5-10 minutes to have a quality game rather than having a teammate auto filled into their worst role and just ruin the game. It's not the auto filled players fault, it's more of the system letting them down.

Whiisp7 votes

Every single players I asked for, players who are competitive on my D1 Account as well as my D3 Account are heavily in favor of this as at this level, people make time to play and don't just squeeze 1 game a day for fun after work and want quick queue time. They want quality practice/games.

From what I've gathered and from the last post I made that was deleted where we had 32 votes for removal and 5 votes against, the picture is starting to be pretty clear.

I do agree for the Diamond 4 Part. However the splitting of the 2 diamond is why I was hesitant to not put d4 with it as I can't see a way to do it unless it's a different rank all together.

Spoony Legs3 votes

I hope this gains traction cause it is a problem. Auto fill is toxic for the high elo community and does nothing but enable toxicity.

It almost boils down to a quality vs quantity kind of debate.

Imo, I'd rather play 5 games where everyone is on their best role giving it their all, than playing 10 where 5 of them players are auto filled and the quality suffers greatly.

Sign me up for long queue times for actual games, I'll just play runescape while I wait. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Whiisp2 votes

Can't agree more. Auto filled games just force me to take breaks in between because thjey tilt me for no visible reason.

It should just not be a thing. Or be revised and modified.

SMURFF NAME HERE5 votes

Ok, and how the fuck would you match Diamond players with other Diamond players when role distribution isn't a perfect 20% per role and autofill is disabled? Let's take EUW as an example. You've got roughly 100k players who are D4 or higher. Since master+ is around 2 thousand.... ish... they can be ignored since 100k is a nice and round number.

Top and support are the least popular roles with 10% of the playerbase picking those roles as primary or secondary. <- This is a guesstimate and might not reflect the actual numbers but it's useful to get the point across.

So now you have 10k support players, 10k toplane players(primary OR secondary) and 80k other players. Let's for a moment assume that players willing to play toplane and support don't play any more games than other roles on average which I believe is reasonable. If suddenly every single diamond player was online and looking for a game which is your best-case scenario you can now make 5 thousand matched games with no autofill(since you need 2 toplaners and 2 supports per game). Now you still have 50k players looking for a game and still need 10 thousand toplane and support players but literally none are left in diamond. Your options are:

1.)Pull lower ranked players, they're plentiful. This will hurt the quality of the games and since you're pulling lower ranked players from only a few roles it will increase the autofill rate for platinum where it's still enabled. If your goal is more competitive games this is really not what you want.

2.)Extend the queue times to a length that's higher than an average pick/Ban + game. So around 35 minutes but only for non top/support players who now get to play 2 games for each 1 other roles play. This also massively hurts the experience for higher rank play. A 5 minute queue instead of 30 seconds is totally fine. A 35 minute one is completely excessive, especially for diamond.

Now realistically you won't ever have ALL of diamond online, you might have 10% of them online at once and that's optimistic. But the ratio problem is still the same unless top and support players somehow spend more time online and looking for a game than everyone else.

There is no magic bullet solution for this problem. Increased queue times help a bit when the matchmaker is limited by computational power, it can't look through and sort all the millions of players looking for a game in all elos and modes. But for higher elo this is much less of an issue so the matchmaker is much more limited by the pool of players currently in queue. So the matchmaker either autofills someone or expands the MMR bracket it's willing to pull from. Or literally does nothing productive and waits hoping that someone with the appropriate MMR and role selection will join the queue.

Now let's say you set a limit on "no autofill queues" at D2 and to fix role imbalance you just pull role-appropriate D3 and D4 players. Not ideal but hey, it happens all the time anyway. Now you've created another problem, D3 and D4 are now completely fucking starved of toplaners and supports since they're all in D2 games. You've now created the "ultra autofill bracket" that's even more cancerous to climb through.

Yenn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SMURFF NAME HERE,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X12pxYhg,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-11-05T05:59:39.410+0000)

Ok, and how the fuck would you match Diamond players with other Diamond players when role distribution isn't a perfect 20% per role and autofill is disabled? Let's take EUW as an example. You've got roughly 100k players who are D4 or higher. Since master+ is around 2 thousand.... ish... they can be ignored since 100k is a nice and round number.

Top and support are the least popular roles with 10% of the playerbase picking those roles as primary or secondary. <- This is a guesstimate and might not reflect the actual numbers but it's useful to get the point across.

So now you have 10k support players, 10k toplane players(primary OR secondary) and 80k other players. Let's for a moment assume that players willing to play toplane and support don't play any more games than other roles on average which I believe is reasonable. If suddenly every single diamond player was online and looking for a game which is your best-case scenario you can now make 5 thousand matched games with no autofill(since you need 2 toplaners and 2 supports per game). Now you still have 50k players looking for a game and still need 10 thousand toplane and support players but literally none are left in diamond. Your options are:

1.)Pull lower ranked players, they're plentiful. This will hurt the quality of the games and since you're pulling lower ranked players from only a few roles it will increase the autofill rate for platinum where it's still enabled. If your goal is more competitive games this is really not what you want.

2.)Extend the queue times to a length that's higher than an average pick/Ban + game. So around 35 minutes but only for non top/support players who now get to play 2 games for each 1 other roles play. This also massively hurts the experience for higher rank play. A 5 minute queue instead of 30 seconds is totally fine. A 35 minute one is completely excessive, especially for diamond.

Now realistically you won't ever have ALL of diamond online, you might have 10% of them online at once and that's optimistic. But the ratio problem is still the same unless top and support players somehow spend more time online and looking for a game than everyone else.

There is no magic bullet solution for this problem. Increased queue times help a bit when the matchmaker is limited by computational power, it can't look through and sort all the millions of players looking for a game in all elos and modes. But for higher elo this is much less of an issue so the matchmaker is much more limited by the pool of players currently in queue. So the matchmaker either autofills someone or expands the MMR bracket it's willing to pull from. Or literally does nothing productive and waits hoping that someone with the appropriate MMR and role selection will join the queue.

Now let's say you set a limit on "no autofill queues" at D2 and to fix role imbalance you just pull role-appropriate D3 and D4 players. Not ideal but hey, it happens all the time anyway. Now you've created another problem, D3 and D4 are now completely fucking starved of toplaners and supports since they're all in D2 games. You've now created the "ultra autofill bracket" that's even more cancerous to climb through.

Add an option to select a third role, done.

Role distribution at Diamond+ actually isn't bad. I get auto-filled to top, bottom, and jungle in roughly even proportions. The only thing I'm never auto-filled to is support.

SMURFF NAME HERE5 votes

Adding a third role would reduce the number of autofills considerably but it probably wouldn't help much with game quality. I see people say they got "autofilled" when they get their secondary role and just look at the number of "suggestions" to queue for only one role with """"slightly"""" increased queue times.

I'm pretty sure that if a third role was added people would endlessly bitch and moan about it and how they're constantly not getting their primary etc. etc. Though there's pretty much no reason not to do it since it's strictly better than random autofill. At that point you could also just give people a full role preference list making sure that outside of really freak occurrences with extremely small player pools(like challenger) you never get your 4th/5th role.

And role distribution is pretty bad, mid is heavily over-represented(which means midlaners get autofilled to other roles all the time) while top is definitely under-represented. I have, no joke, not been autofilled or even got my secondary(mid) once in like 100 games when I queue top and lane against autofilled players all the time. It's obvious that the system is starved for people queuing top.

Xintium3 votes

Disclaimer: I am not high elo myself, but I know (in-real-life) some Diamond+ players.

[{quoted}](name=SMURFF NAME HERE,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X12pxYhg,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2019-11-05T06:44:06.214+0000)

Though there's pretty much no reason not to do it since it's strictly better than random autofill. At that point you could also just give people a full role preference list making sure that outside of really freak occurrences with extremely small player pools(like challenger) you never get your 4th/5th role.

This. High Elo needs full role preference. Full role preference is strictly better than Autofill. The fact that it isn't a magic bullet doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented, leaving a strictly worse system (aka autofill) in place.

A note on role-distribution: this is Riot fault, no matter how you look at it. Considering the huge number of high elo players (across the globe), the fact that some roles are consistently viewed as "bad", except by a relatively small percentage of dedicated players, simply means that Riot balancing of that role is flawed. Top Lane seems to be the main issue, nowadays. I do not know the specific role-distribution now, but back in the day, being a support (also called a "ward-bot") just felt miserable, yet a necessity, and Riot publicly admitted that support was the least played role, causing insanely long (30 minutes is a joke, do you suffer from long-term memory loss? 1+ hour Q-time says hello!) Q-times at the very top of the ranked ladder.

Full role preference can mitigate (careful: not "solve") all of this.

And how can you prevent 1+ hour Q-time at the very top? Simple: add a MAX_TIMER (say, 30 minutes), which players can see while they are queueing. After (Q-time > Max_timer), two things happen:

  1. The player-in-queue gets an alert, saying that Q-time exceeded the max_timer;
  2. This means that the MMR range for the match-making will get slowly extended as time passes.

If the player is fine having to play against a larger MMR range, he just needs to keep waiting. Most likely, after 5-10 more minutes (35-40 minutes total Q-time), he will find a match. Not "the" perfect match, but likely a somewhat fair match nonetheless (MMR isn't perfect anyway, it's already an estimate with a bad variance, so...). If the player isn't fine and really, like really wants that "perfect" MMR match, he will wait 1+ hour. His choice.

When you get to Grand Master (or even Master, depending on the average number of active players, but only Riot has the data to decide this) and above, let players pick the MAX_TIMER between the following options:

  1. Zero: you are willing to play a match where the algorithm will search with increasingly large MMR from the very beginning - you don't care playing against Faker in midlane as a GM, since you think getting trashed by him is a learning experience in itself - and one day you may actually snatch a win against him! who knows;
  2. 10-20-30-40-50 minutes: the usual deal, with varying degrees of allowed waiting;
  3. Infinite: you don't care about waiting 1 day or more, just get that perfect match.

After a transitory phase, where players will learn (at their expenses) that trying to abuse the settings only to get their 4th role after 3 hours of Q-time wasn't such great of an idea, the situation will just be a strict improvement compared to now.

Conclusion: Full role preference is strictly better than Autofill (fact #1). Q-Time and Game quality have an inherent trade-off (fact #2) and this is exacerbated at the top of the ladder (fact #3). Instead of having the system arbitrarily decide what is the priority and having autofill ruin games, let the players pick that. At most, the players will ruin themselves. But after a transitory phase, where players trying to abuse the system will get trashed by it, the situation will significantly improve.

The numbers/ranks given here are purely made up. I don't know if MAX_TIMER needs to be 20 minutes or 30 minutes. I don't know if it needs to be tunable from Diamond 1 or from Grand Master. Only Riot, having full datasets, can make these precise fine-tunings. But if you have the full picture, iteratively tuning this system is very doable. And it can only get better.

SMURFF NAME HERE1 votes

Here's the big problem with too much player choice in how you queue. Splitting up the queues and making them essentially incassesible to eachother makes for longer queue times and worse game quality for everyone. If people are queueing for a fast game and there are 8 other role-compatible players queuing at the same time you could just put 2 slightly lower role-compatible players or 2 "autofills" in that game and start it up. But now if 3 of those 8 people are in the "1 hour good matches only" queue you suddenly need 5 extra players instead of 2. This decreases game quality for "fast queues". And since fast queuers are constantly being snatched up there's hardly any players to match with those 3 1 hour queuers.

It also really fucks with the matchmaking as outside of happy coincidences where fast queuers just happen to be availible and role-compatible at the perfect time they won't be matched with/against slow queuers, essentially creating 2 different ladders. Maybe you suddenly realise that if most people are fast queueing that by slow queueing you'll dodge most of the best and most practiced players, being able to earn Elo against worse players and inflate your rank.

At high Elo the absolute last thing you ever want to do is segregate the playerbase, you want all the best players playing against eachother whenever possible.

As an added negative it would also be insanely abusable for duo boosting/wintrading, it would be so much easier to snipe games together and either get a "free" duo or end up against eachother and decide on who's gonna trade the win.

Xintium2 votes

[{quoted}](name=SMURFF NAME HERE,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X12pxYhg,comment-id=00100000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-05T11:47:55.670+0000)

Here's the big problem with too much player choice in how you queue [...]

I strongly believe everything you have written:

  1. already happens now;
  2. can be solved by fine-tuning.

The queues are not "inaccesible" to each other, I don't know how you reached that conclusion. Queue times are also not necessarily longer. But game quality is significantly improved (not worsened).

Probabilistically speaking, "slow-queuers" (the ones who select a high Max_Timer) are realistically only being matched with "fast-queuers" (low Max_Timer) with the same MMR range. To match 10 slow-queuers in a dynamic environment, the probabilities are astronomically low, especially considering that those 10 are likely all in Q for Mid Lane, so the system won't match them together until they expire the Max_Timer and then start looking at 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th roles.

The end result is that the "slow" and "fast" ladders will constantly get mixed. Note that players who select 1 hour as Max_Timer are willingly doing that: the system isn't forcing anything upon them.

You say that they are matched against better practiced players. That's impossible, since better players have higher MMR and the system, to begin with, just discarded those. The whole purpose of having 1 hour Q-time is to get inside the appropriate MMR bracket, not only to get your primary role, which likely won't happen anyway if the primary role is already "saturated" by the playerbase (with or without this system, this is a fact which is system-independent).

If the MMR bracket is essentially random (due to MMR being a random number), like it is now, that's a different story and I may be inclined to agree with you, but it is not the fault of a match-making algorithm.

Finally, I think we already established that waiting 5-10 more minutes is worth if the game quality (i.e. the MMR bracket) is better.

"Rank inflating" already happens now. Hello, negative winrates high elo players! How have you been?

Rank inflating, which is simply a by-product of imperfect MMR matchmaking, is unavoidable in any system, except the "infinite-Q-time" system (are you happy to wait 1 year for a game? yeah, have fun waiting for that "perfect" match), which is trivially bad. Do not think that Autofill magically makes you immune to rank inflating: that's, mathematically speaking, nonsense.

IainG102 votes

{quoted}

A note on role-distribution: this is Riot fault, no matter how you look at it. Considering the huge number of high elo players (across the globe), the fact that some roles are consistently viewed as "bad", except by a relatively small percentage of dedicated players, simply means that Riot balancing of that role is flawed. Top Lane seems to be the main issue, nowadays. I do not know the specific role-distribution now, but back in the day, being a support (also called a "ward-bot") just felt miserable, yet a necessity, and Riot publicly admitted that support was the least played role, causing insanely long (30 minutes is a joke, do you suffer from long-term memory loss? 1+ hour Q-time says hello!) Q-times at the very top of the ranked ladder.

I strongly agree with your post, but to expand on this bit right here; if you actually stop to think about it, there were ways for Riot to combat this that they either missed due to not really playing the game for pleasure or just missed through sheer ineptitude.

Why are they making people learn roles via Autofill in Ranked games, rather than giving incentives to learn in Normals? Why not have a weekly mission to win a Normal matchmade game in the previous week's least popular Ranked role for some not completely useless reward, like a Key fragment or 25 OE, or even an Honor Booster that doubles your received Honor for x games? I honestly thought Role-based Ranks were a good idea on paper, but the implementation not only killed that iteration, it killed any chance of any other iteration because there was not sufficient reason to actually try in your off-role games (be it a lack of carrot or a lack of stick, though IMO it was both).

Riot saw that some roles were a punishment and instead of deciding to at least give some compensation (but not LP gain boost, because that would 100% fuck up the system and even I, a Support Main, am against that) and maybe make the role more attractive and therefore more populous, they just decided that everyone should suffer more equally.... This is a serious step on the road to game design by numbers rather than feel, and it kills games almost as hard as being bought out by EA does.

Xintium2 votes

Well said. At this point, it is sheer "ineptitude". But not only in the sense of technical ineptitude, which they publicly admitted ("spaghetti code") anyway, but also in this sense: LC$ above all.

P.S. I'm also a Support (I mean, ward-bot) main.

Whiisp4 votes

It would not be 35 minutes for Diamond. Because for one, the higher you rank up, the more players in support and top you will find simple fact, just play at those rank and look up everyone before every game. There's not really that misconception that every 1 get's support. Every single role other than mid, gets auto fill thrown into them, because the system does not wait to find people, it throws everyone in ASAP.

Second, Current dodges occurrence already put queue times at around 30 minutes. Why not get a first queue pop at 30, which won't happen, and go into game rather than wait for 5 dodges in a row(No exaggeration, this happens a lot).

Take the Master+ Bracket, queue times aren't long/fast because of auto fill. The queue time is defined by the amount of players camping LP, no denying that.

Again, Auto fill itself does not need to be removed, if it is tweaked in a way that works, awesome. Add a 3rd role for example to choose from. Better than getting your 5th role. There's compromises. Work Around. Those incentive in D2+ Makes people want to play on those accounts, maybe not this alone, but it's a start, therefore queue times get better.

You would be surprised how many people don't play games other than decay games... Pros also barely play in NA, and do in house instead or don't play cause soloQ is garbage. Just keep up to date with high elo players complaining about how little player actually play in that elo and you will get my point.

Current queue time on my D1 account is 1-3 minutes at peak hour(4pm to 12am). with 1-2 auto fill. Wait 5 more minutes and I guarantee you, it finds all on roles players. That's not long at all. There's enough player on any role to fill it. Queue times would be very high in the morning for EST though, that yes I can see it as it is already long with auto fill on. It's a thing to tweak for certain hours. Maybe enable no auto fill for 6 hours a day at peak hour... Who knows what magic can happen.

The main problem right now, is that the system does not try to wait long to find people. You can see by the amount of time people get autofilled mid lane and say ''how the fuck am i auto filled mid'' As obviously the most played role should give you a big enough number of population to be able to give you an on role mid laner every single game,.... RIGHT?!.... Nope, that does not happen all the time.

SMURFF NAME HERE6 votes

the higher you rank up, the more players in support and top you will find simple fact, just play at those rank and look up everyone before every game

Played in diamond just today. And there are definitely way more toplaners in plat and below than diamond+, the popularity of that role drops off a fucking cliff in high elo. As long as role selection is imbalanced you'll either need autofill or game-long queue times, try to balance the role selection by adding more roles to choose from(meaning the more popular your primary is the more you'll get secondary or tertiary) which, while somewhat helpful, would still make people dodge all the time. You think all the dodges are from people getting literally their worst role? Some even dodge if they get secondary and aren't even autofilled, plenty of people only play 2 main roles and dodge everything else. Adding a third role would only help for players that are actually competent at 3 roles.

Even if you have more players playing that just means you need more matches. Expanding the pool of players does not help with a ratio issue. If the ratio of most popular: least popular roles is 2:1 you're back to 35 minute queues or autofill. Let's say it's "prime time" or masters players start playing again and now you have three times as many players to choose from. Great!, you can make more fully on-role games. But you also NEED three times the number of games in total which means you again need to fill three times as many top/support slots(or whatever happens to be the least popular role).

Yordle Gunner3 votes

First I want to see real penalties for people dodging and at high elos I want to see a crack down on multiple account dodging.

Whiisp15 votes

Dodging is too important in a competitive environment where the system flaws need to be fixed by players action... ie dodging. Without dodges, too many games with 4 support mains/filled roles would happen and this is just unplayable and a waste of time at this level.

Idk about you in gold, maybe it is a problem in a certain way, I can't tell, and this is why my points are mainly directed at players above the Diamond 2 Range because the game is not the same at all. 4 Support main/filled roles in lower rank is much easier to win than in higher elos.

scuzzerton9 votes

Why would you want this at a rank that literally does not affect you? This does not make sense ? Unless I'm missing something ?

Yboat2 votes

A better question is not rather or not it should be removed, but how long are you willing to wait for a game. It would not be hard for rito to run a simluation to see just how long it would add to the que time. The other side of that is now how does time effect the mmr spread. Ie after 5 mins we expand the allowed mmr range by 100 for every min in que. I don't know how lol handles extended que times, but all mmr based que systems do this to some degree. It's also one of the main reasons most games don't show mmr. They are afraid( rightfully so) that pthe player base can figure out the mm system and then abuse it. It's not that hard to do actually, just takes a decent sample size and time. Ranks don't really work that way as rank/=/ mmr.

You are correct in that is not autofill that is the issue, but the player bases reaction too it that is.

I would recomend cracking down on smurfs and multi account dodgers. I bet removing that would cut que times down by a significant margin. The sad reality is dodging can significantly increase your win rate if you are doing it correctly. It's been tested in many mobas and the ammount you can increase your win rate is shocking. I have seen numbers as high as 30% in win rate increase. One way to help combat dodging is to remove names and account info from draft lobbies and loading screens. That way people can not check on other players and then dodge accordingly. I don't like it, but it has proven successful in other games.

Whiisp22 votes

Dodging is necessary in a competitive environment like Diamond+ (D2+) because at this level, I don't want to have 4 support mains play vs on role players as at this rank, it's a guaranteed loss. And that just creates massive frustration within high elo that I personally can't handle anymore. There's a reason why so many people above Masters Create Smurf. Because at this elo, No kidding, you get your role way less often and therefore can't practice, especially mid laners. (That's excluding streamers because they don't want 20 min queue time on stream)

I've also seen comments on previous post about Adding a 3rd role to choose from. Which IMO is way better than being filled on your 5th role and would reduce queue time if auto fill is removed.

Yboat1 votes

{quoted}

Dodging is necessary in a competitive environment like Diamond+ (D2+) because at this level, I don't want to have 4 support mains play vs on role players as at this rank, it's a guaranteed loss. And that just creates massive frustration within high elo that I personally can't handle anymore. There's a reason why so many people above Masters Create Smurf. Because at this elo, No kidding, you get your role way less often and therefore can't practice, especially mid laners. (That's excluding streamers because they don't want 20 min queue time on stream)

I've also seen comments on previous post about Adding a 3rd role to choose from. Which IMO is way better than being filled on your 5th role and would reduce queue time if auto fill is removed.

So once again it's a player base issue, not an autofill issue. How many lobbies does it take to get into game? Each one after the 1st is 99% becuase of a dodge. Wby not take the step of removing identifying plyers until in game 1st? While it wont stop dodging, it will help. It will also improve mmr as a metric of in game skills, rather then how good you are " stacking thd deck"

The other side of that is if you deserve your mmr/ win rate you can do it by not dodging. I know that sounds harsh, but it's true. Same with otp that have a 60% + win rate on thier otp, but drasticly lower on anything else. You could have a 100% win rate over 500 games in lets say mid lane in korean challenger on your otp, but a 0% at the same elo on any one else. That does not mean you make faker look bronze, it means you are not well rounded in lol. You willnot be playing at the pro level, not matter how good of a otp you are.

Whiisp7 votes

Ofc it's a player base issue as mentioned in the post as it is a good system on paper for lower ranks.

Removing that ability to look up people would make games unfair as the system does not care at higher rank if its 3 support and 2 junglers in a game. This removes game quality aspect that is seeked by higher elo players. Deserving a rank or not at this elo does not matter, people just want to improve and playing vs an auto filled just is not cutting it or having to lose 100% because of auto filled teammates is not cutting it either.

There is a reason other than Ping(ms) that pro players/ high elo players do in house. SoloQ quality in north america is not cutting it on a high elo/ pro aspiring level.

Yes you can achieve a deserved rank without dodging ofc. But that just requires more games, bad quality games that could be eliminated.

Not sure I understand the 1tp point the way you worded it however.

Face it12 votes

I understand you trying to back this up with stats. But stats oriented systems don't work. You have to listen to what players want and make an in between. As stats alone is never well received as the player base does not act according to data, they act on feelings.

Fail to answer the feelings/ desire the players want and you game becomes a dead game, as high elo is currently with a lot of people camping LP.

But that feeling part you can't grasp and neither can I as I'm not that rank. And you only play normal so you have no idea same as me.

High elo is a much different beast, same with pro play. Riot has been making changes for high elo only in the past like the removal of duoQ. This is because high elo/ 0-1% of the player base does not interact the same way the other 99%c does. And for competitive sake, Riot must act in order to raise the region to a better level. That CoreJJ post about NA SoloQ quality is something of a GEM, and a cry from the hearth of a player trying to raise ideas and thoughts about how this can be improved.

Don't get me wrong... Stats needs to be used in that process. Not just used alone as you are placing it.

Visualized5 votes

I like that point a lot. I can only think of games like WoW that did not listen to their players in the past and their game going to shit. Mainly their competitive scene. Or the cry from the hearth of pro HotS players about making the game better on a competitive level. Riot Should learn from some Competitive Blizzard games mistakes.

Whiisp6 votes

Good point. That's exactly what I mean when I point out the system being good but people making it bad because they don't want it / comply to it. They have to listen in order to fix something.

Something needs to change.

Yenn7 votes

{quoted}

So once again it's a player base issue, not an autofill issue. How many lobbies does it take to get into game? Each one after the 1st is 99% becuase of a dodge. Wby not take the step of removing identifying plyers until in game 1st? While it wont stop dodging, it will help. It will also improve mmr as a metric of in game skills, rather then how good you are " stacking thd deck"

The other side of that is if you deserve your mmr/ win rate you can do it by not dodging. I know that sounds harsh, but it's true. Same with otp that have a 60% + win rate on thier otp, but drasticly lower on anything else. You could have a 100% win rate over 500 games in lets say mid lane in korean challenger on your otp, but a 0% at the same elo on any one else. That does not mean you make faker look bronze, it means you are not well rounded in lol. You willnot be playing at the pro level, not matter how good of a otp you are.

This post is absolute garbage and shows no knowledge of how the game works at high elo. I feel like we should have Diamond+ restricted boards to facilitate actual discussion of high elo issues without this uneducated spam.

It doesn't matter that I know how to play every role. If auto-fill only gives me top in 1/30 games, I'm going to be completely out of practice with it. This isn't a big deal for some roles, where trades are cut and dry, but it will absolutely make you lose in top or jungle, where a single misjudged interaction often results in death.

Also, at high elo, it only takes a single player performing poorly to completely sabotage the game, which is a reality you're either ignoring or completely ignorant of. One player being auto-filled and feeding will cause a loss for the other four players on their team, regardless of their performance.

Whiisp3 votes

Yeah, I'd love to see something like this.

As I'm pretty sure a lot of votes also come from people not in diamond which just alters the point I'm trying to make.

Yboat2 votes

So lets play the what if game.

Lets just say auto fill is gone, but the que times stay the same as it removes the autofill dodges. Now the limiting factor is the lowest played roll.

How long will it take the player base to start dodging based ob the draft? Which means we are back at the same point we are at now. Its a player base issue.

So what do we do when dodging based on match up( or even pick order) becomes the norm?

Ask any diamond + player on rather or not they want 1st pick or counter pick.

Like it or not, as long as we can pick our rolls, autofill will not go away.

I am not saying the system works, becuase it clearly does not. Rather then re ove the system, we need to tweak it.

There are lots of people in thus thread that do not understand that player based issues will not change. The best thing we can do is try and mitigate it. Removing autofill will just mean it goes to anothrr reason to dodge.

Look, i get it, its frustrating too lose over something tjat is not your control. Yes, the mm sucks. Yes, autofill sucks. Niether if those things are going to change.

Any mm based of the elo system will fail in any multi player game that does not have fixed teams. Autofill will always be a thing when you can select your roll. One roll will always be the limiting factor.

This thread really has showed me alot about why lol is in the state it is in. Things like " dodging is needed to keep it competitive " think about that statment in reguards to the player base. It does not paint a pretty pic.

What i am saying here, removing autofill will just lead to more problems that need to " be fixed" later. I wpuld bet $100 that with in 6 months of removing autofill, player base actually drops 20% and dodges still happen 50% as often as thry do now. Dodging is thr symptoms of the player base issue, not the cuase

Whiisp12 votes

You are missing too many point and dumming down too many things / Interpreting things I said in the wrong way. No wonder it's hard to keep up with what you are saying... You don't play ranked or know how the system work...

Let me make 1 point clear to you. I'm talking about game quality. Auto fill problems cause toxic problems. If it's remove and people dodge, the toxicity is removed because no one has to be mad at anyone for not having a role. Will they rage at comp ? Not more than they do now and now is not a problem that is even close to be big enough to even lay a thought over because dodges over comp never happen unless it's full ad. Which is once every 50 games (But you wouldn't know cause you don't play).

When I say dodging is good for comp, I'm basing this on the fact auto fill is active. It's in essence not good. But HAS to be there to balance the bullshit caused by Riot system. Remove auto fill and remove dodges because you essentially don't need them anymore because no one will troll unless they decided to do so even before getting into champ select. That removes your toxicity factor right there. And by toxicity, just to make sure you are still following, means trolling as well.

Listen, this thread is for diamond players, not someone trying to debate stuff he does not even play himself as someone pointed out earlier. Insight is good but when you start going over the classic bullshit of ''this is why the player base is like blah blah'' you just lose all credibility.

I don't get why you try to spend your time on something that if it changes won't ever touch you or 99% of the player base... You are literally missing the first 2 lines of this post, in BOLD too... Like dude... lmao u make me think of a dude i went to college with and that's not a compliment...

Yboat1 votes

{quoted}

You are missing too many point and dumming down too many things / Interpreting things I said in the wrong way. No wonder it's hard to keep up with what you are saying... You don't play ranked or know how the system work...

Let me make 1 point clear to you. I'm talking about game quality. Auto fill problems cause toxic problems. If it's remove and people dodge, the toxicity is removed because no one has to be mad at anyone for not having a role. Will they rage at comp ? Not more than they do now and now is not a problem that is even close to be big enough to even lay a thought over because dodges over comp never happen unless it's full ad. Which is once every 50 games (But you wouldn't know cause you don't play).

When I say dodging is good for comp, I'm basing this on the fact auto fill is active. It's in essence not good. But HAS to be there to balance the bullshit caused by Riot system. Remove auto fill and remove dodges because you essentially don't need them anymore because no one will troll unless they decided to do so even before getting into champ select. That removes your toxicity factor right there. And by toxicity, just to make sure you are still following, means trolling as well.

Listen, this thread is for diamond players, not someone trying to debate stuff he does not even play himself as someone pointed out earlier. Insight is good but when you start going over the classic bullshit of ''this is why the player base is like blah blah'' you just lose all credibility.

I don't get why you try to spend your time on something that if it changes won't ever touch you or 99% of the player base... You are literally missing the first 2 lines of this post, in BOLD too... Like dude... lmao u make me think of a dude i went to college with and that's not a compliment...

So answer my question. How long are you willing to wait for said quality game?

It is what it all boils down too.

I understanf all to well. You think lol roll que is bad. You should have tried hots when they still had max que. Whats that you ask? Its when after x ammount of time you get the next game no matter what. Imgaine being rank 1( the elo you are talkng about in this thread) and getting stuck in a game with 9 rank 40s( bronze) or in season one where you make gm( challenger) and get stuck in a gold 5 game. I have been at the extreme end of bad mm systems.

What i am saying, is that autofill will always be part of the system if you get to select rolls. Removing it is not the answer, it will not work. Making it better is the only solution. I can think of 2 other 5v5 games that removed all player info until the game luanched. I did noy improve the game play, but in both cases it cut the draft dodges in half. Which ment que times droped to 40% of what they were.

So once again, how long are you willing to wait?

Whiisp10 votes

Alright listen...

We are willing to wait a lot more than the current 30 seconds to 5 minutes. Constant Dodges cause of the auto fills makes the queue last 30 minutes already.

Don't bring HotS into this lmao... Game is out of the portrait for a reason.

Read what face it said. HIGH ELO PLAYERS AKA CHALLENGER don't even play the game right now. I don't know on what planet you live, but these players, the top 1000, play in houses, scrims anything to save them from SoloQ. ANYTHING. Ask anyone. I'm not taking this out of my butt either. I know wayy too many people who would rather not play league than play SoloQ at Master+. Thus why they camp LP and play amateur.

Listen because this is the last reply... As Face it said it... You don't know what High elo is and it's not league games as you normally see it. At higher Rank it's pro players and upcoming talents etc. We're talking professional paid sport here. Things need to be different.

As mentioned, if they tweak it and it works, perfect. It just needs to change. Period. Get to Master, try it out for yourself, and let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Yboat1 votes

5 mins is a short que. Give me a number.

Face it12 votes

He already told you. He's already waiting 30 min for a good game. Do 1+1... If it takes this long he's ok with it as long as it's a good game, regardless, without auto fills and dodges it would be lower than this because theres a lot of support main in these elos... Jesus you are getting into the petty game right now. Pathetic.

Whiisp6 votes

Lmao Face it chill he's got a family.

Yes as he said to make a point clear to you... once again.... A lot more than 5 minutes. Above 20+ is starting to get a bit long IMO. So in between that is ideal. 5 more minutes won't kill me either.

Currently Challenger players wait about 10 minutes before 1st queue pop, then 1-4 minutes between each dodges. That's with more than half of the player base not touching their accounts in those ranks. Give them incentive to play high end SoloQ. This goes down a lot. Adding Decay games does not do that job.

Your false assumption that queues are long and removing auto fill would make it more so, is unfounded. Because at this rank, people play a crap ton and have a lot of time. Thus making queue times a lot faster than even lower ranks if people play the game. But they don't.

Hope this answer suffice you, and yes, your falling into petty arguments. So please. Take a breath. Good day.

Face it15 votes

Dude jesus christ. For one, you don't even play ranked and you try to change something that will never touch you ? You don't even know what your talking about, betting money on unfounded assumptions. Making shit up that just makes absolutely no sense in ranked environement.

What are you even basing all your information off of ? I'm not sure I'm getting the level 250 vibe of only playing normals and trying to appear as a know it all on how ranked at high elo should work... lmao. High elo is not even the same as SoloQ literally.

Anyway, it's undeniable that high elo soloq is bad. And that's why there's in houses being made... and no it's not only for ping. It's because people can play in a competitive environment, with everyone on roles, everyone try Harding.

For you, this game, is just a game. But for high elo, it's a professional Sport. A game Vs a Pro Sport... Take a minute and let that sink in. we are casuals. We have no insight on how people making a living off this game think about the game and how some stuff, just makes it terrible and need to be changed.

And your going to tell me, Diamond 2+ is not pro or anything blah blah... This is the beggning of high elo, where the rookies and the upcoming talent is playing in. If this elo sucks, then high elo players don't want to play and you hear them complain all the time.This is not in your area of discussion, so just don't take part in it ? Don't you think ?

For us in low elo like me and you playing normals, this is not even gonna matter to us because as this posts says, if they add it only for Diamond+, you will need to reach Diamond in the first place. So why bother... Our games will be just the same.

Whiisp9 votes

Someone finally said what needed to be said. Cheers!

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