Kayle: Fun and Healthy?

Two Right Wings ·Mar 26, 2015·5 votes·1,831 views

Hiya! I'm a plat 3 support and jungle Kayle main enjoying a very solid ranked season on my favorite Champion! After she came into popularity As a counter to the assassin meta and was subsequently beaten with the Nerf bat for 2 months straight Kayle has finally settled into a balanced place in the solo que meta. Competitivly Kayle is suffering from an identity crisis as a poorly scaling lulu with a less forgiving build path and ultimate, but that's another story for another thread im sure.

The problem with Kayle right now is a simple one, despite all of her weaknesses, Kayle will inevitably always preform well against a certain subset of champions (mainly assassins) regardless of the skill level of the players in the matchup. So if and when Kayle inevitably becomes popular again, the balance team will be forced to destroy her because no matter what stats they tweak Kayle will never be "healthy"

The unhealthy playstyle comes from Kayles bianary pattern of engagement. If you find yourself weaker than Kayle your only choice is to simply not get close to her, elsewise you will be slowed and fire sworded to death. If you are a short range all in champion lacking in CC and Kayle gets ahead, you can't do anything against her. Diana, Kat, and Zed come to mind as champions who simply lose against Kayle.

On the opposite side of the fence, this binary playstyle can leave Kayle players feeling frustrated and without options in matchups where Kayle is significantly outranged. Xerath, Ziggs, and Lux come to mind as matchups that Kayle players have no options in outside of a flash forward to even so much as deal damage to their opponent in lane.

The fix? Make Kayles Q a interesting skillshot that thematically fits her instead of a short range point and click damaging slow that is just an arbitrary big real ball visually!

1 other point for discussion. There is nothing more frustrating in a game as a Kayle player than having your E go on cool down at the wrong time. Since Kayle must have her E active to deal damage, it can be frustrating when a fight lasts longer than your Righteous Fury and you simply die because of it. Kayles E being a toggle type ability like Jinx's rocket launcher would open up a lot of interesting build paths as a mana mage or even ad carry build, it would be nice to not have CDR forced down our throats as the only viable build path.

Oh yeah, can we make Ludens Echo charge with Kayles E autos while we are overbuffing her Riot? Pls.

Thoughts Kayle players and haters? Let's talk about our favorite Guardian Angel!

17 Comments

The5lackerMar 26, 20154 votes

I like the idea of making Kayle's Q some sort of fast, high damage skillshot. Gives her some engagement potential while forcing her to actually consider where the minion wave is. I've also been petitioning for Kayle's E to be a toggle for years, now. 10 Mana per swing is gonna eat up WAY more mana for farming, which changes her play patterns from "Be useless for the 3 seconds E is on cooldown" to "Manage mana, fool! Manage mana!"

I also wouldn't object to her E granting her autoattacks her bonus magic damage passively, but not the range or splash. She feels kinda useless without it, and that would help off-builds like Jungle Kayle. Maybe even tie some mana management to it like with Jayce.

XShadowAlkXMar 26, 20152 votes

On a serious note Kayle is a supportive champion and her entire kit is designed to peel for other carries and protect them. She can be fun and if you aim for kills she does feel binary though her potential lies in peeling for the adc.

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

On a serious note Kayle is a supportive champion and her entire kit is designed to peel for other carries and protect them. She can be fun and if you aim for kills she does feel binary though her potential lies in peeling for the adc.

As an avid high rank support Kayle player, I feel like Kayles utility is in a comfortable spot with the only feasible change being an ad ratio on her W to open build paths for hybrid and AD Kayles. Any more utility to Kayles kit for peeling would come at the payoff of her already poorly scaling damage and remove her viability as a solo lane mage. Riot seems unwilling to commit to either Kayle or her sister being a true support though I do have some cool ideas in that vein of thinking.

JimmyNtheKudosMar 26, 20152 votes

I'm having fun with mid Kayle. I hear her jungle is secretly OP, but I'm a terrible jungler. Hopefully, Riot just leaves her alone for a while.

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm having fun with mid Kayle. I hear her jungle is secretly OP, but I'm a terrible jungler. Hopefully, Riot just leaves her alone for a while.

Try devourer into esscense reaver, black cleaver, lucidity boots phantom dancer and Ie for ad jungle! Ap is pretty straightforward!

JimmyNtheKudosMar 26, 20151 votes

Thanks for the tip. I've seen builds with BOTRK, any thoughts?

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for the tip. I've seen builds with BOTRK, any thoughts?

It gives her a huge damage spike mid game and is generally a great item for ad or hybrid builds, only issue is it doesn't provide CDR, so you either need to invest into runes to makeup for lost CDR and sacrifice some early game power or just deal with the extended wait on your E!

DJ Di0Mar 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gaurdian Angel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wm8eUiBq,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T03:11:46.831+0000)

It gives her a huge damage spike mid game and is generally a great item for ad or hybrid builds, only issue is it doesn't provide CDR, so you either need to invest into runes to makeup for lost CDR and sacrifice some early game power or just deal with the extended wait on your E!

What about Runan's? Back in the days of the 'korean kayle build' people would build it on her; is it still an okay item?

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wm8eUiBq,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T03:30:17.729+0000)

What about Runan's? Back in the days of the 'korean kayle build' people would build it on her; is it still an okay item?

Runaans is an amazing item on AP Kayle in team compositions where she has a strong front line and is less reliant on bursty enagage patterns. With the popularity or suon and maokai, go for it! However be aware that frozen heart and randuins shut you down totally even if the enemy builds no MR. On AD builds you are better off doubling down with crit chance with items like shiv or PD than investing in runaans!

XShadowAlkXMar 26, 20151 votes

Or maybe they could delete Kayle and her op ultimate http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/G0qEhYkN-balancing-champions-just-delete-them

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or maybe they could delete Kayle and her op ultimate http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/G0qEhYkN-balancing-champions-just-delete-them

Her ultimate only feels broken because the rest of her kit is so toxic! A xerath player won't feel like Kayles ultimate is broken because a Xerath player doesn't face the issues with Kayles binary engagement pattern and is thus free to play around Kayles ult in meaningful and strategic ways!

The5lackerMar 26, 20154 votes

Obvious troll is obvious. The only thing he wants is attention. Don't give it to him.

SleepyLionCubMar 26, 20151 votes

Her ult is fine imo. its actually not that weird or broken for a MOBA ult.

However, her heal should not give movespeed. She should be immobile. She has defence, she has offense, and she has very high aoe damage.

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Her ult is fine imo. its actually not that weird or broken for a MOBA ult.

However, her heal should not give movespeed. She should be immobile. She has defence, she has offense, and she has very high aoe damage.

Did you read my post? Nerfing Kayles move speed would do nothing to make her less toxic for the all in champions she counters, and would leave her feeling even more useless and less fun against the long range champions who counter her.

Turret49Mar 26, 20151 votes

Kayle's probably my favourite champion to support with, I don't have an issue with her range as I see her W as less of a heal and more of a repositioning/initiation tool, it's easy to go in, harass and move out again while the enemy's slowed. As support Kayle you only use E when you need it, and usually build enough CDR that it can stay up indefinitely anyway. Going tanky support with kayle (with item 3092 ) gives you a lot of utility, and the enemy team is unsure who to focus as you have % armor and mr reduction to spread around. I don't really see the point in the Q change, it just looks like more removal of targeted abilities for the sake of removing them, which I'm tired of seeing. I don't want to see it turn into a slowing version of a morgana Q. Also, Kayle's E has a downtime early on for a reason, you're saying you're worried about her being too hard to engage on and that she needs to buy CDR, but then you bring up the idea of it being a toggle and mana intensive?

Two Right Wings Mar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kayle's probably my favourite champion to support with, I don't have an issue with her range as I see her W as less of a heal and more of a repositioning/initiation tool, it's easy to go in, harass and move out again while the enemy's slowed. As support Kayle you only use E when you need it, and usually build enough CDR that it can stay up indefinitely anyway. Going tanky support with kayle (with ) gives you a lot of utility, and the enemy team is unsure who to focus as you have % armor and mr reduction to spread around. I don't really see the point in the Q change, it just looks like more removal of targeted abilities for the sake of removing them, which I'm tired of seeing. I don't want to see it turn into a slowing version of a morgana Q. Also, Kayle's E has a downtime early on for a reason, you're saying you're worried about her being too hard to engage on and that she needs to buy CDR, but then you bring up the idea of it being a toggle and mana intensive?

Support Kayle is awesome!
A change to Kayles Q isn't just a change for the sake of making it a skillshot. The 2 problems With Kayles Q is A.) How unfuffiling it is as an ability being a short range point and click slow with no real depth and B.) How thematically unfuffiling it is. It has a cool name: "reckoning" but in the end Kayle just hurls a ball of...energy or something? At them and keeps going. A longer range skillshot would allow Kayle players options in normally stifling matchups where she is outranged. (You will never even deal damage to a skilled xerath player in lane without using flash as it stands right now) a skillshot also allows champions who are normally stiffled by Kayle means of counterplay! And skillshots come in all shapes and sizes! It doesn't have to be just a generic straight line!
lastly you are right changes to Kayles E that dramatic would require some number tweaks. As it stands strong disengaging ranged lane bullies like Quinn and teemo manage to be perfectly healthy without their auto attacks having downtime. Its not a 100% straightforward process, but this is just a discussion!

SiachiMar 26, 20151 votes

I actually got Kayle and her Riot skin for free the other month (Thanks Lyte =D), but besides bot games, I haven't really tried her much, especially not in a PvP match against competent, non-computer opponents.

I'm just curious as to what do you think of Kayle's current kit? Does it fit her theme or fantasy? Could it be more interesting (outside of making her Q a skillshot, or her E a toggle) or even have different skills or mechanics altogether? Would you rather her be a solo-lane champ, or solidify her more into the support role?

I hope this doesn't come across as rude or anything; I'm just curious what you think of your favorite champion. It's probably just my unranked ass, but she feels almost a bit too simple to me: Besides her E, everything just feels like point-and-click stat up/down abilities (though the knowing the timing of when to use her ult would take skill). I guess she's supposed to be a beginner champion, though, so maybe it's understandable.