Major character changes should give you the ability to refund them and their skins free

Vilice·Feb 3, 2015·9 votes·1,852 views

^Pretty much what I said in the title. For example playing as Soraka after not playing League for a little while, and it's like they shoved an entirely different character into her skin. Not even close to the same play style. I mean it's one thing for balancing to happen, but it's kind of lame when you end up with an entirely different character. Now she is a crowd control character instead of a big healer? This happens to lots of characters and it just seems odd to end up stuck with something you didn't want in the first place. Plus half of the community dropping a character after a major change would be a pretty good indicator the change isn't very awesome.

38 Comments

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20154 votes

No. Creates a perverse incentive for Riot never to change anything.

Also, Soraka healing got hella buffed in her rework.

ViliceFeb 3, 20152 votes

It creates an incentive to not give the community the short straw on their deals and to do things right the first time. Rather than making changes off of tournament players that a lot of people don't even care about.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20152 votes

That's water under the bridge. Screwups are inevitable, especially in the early days of Riot when they didn't have the prestige to attract good design talent.

Concretely, Riot already screwed up Mordekaiser. I want a rework. I don't want Riot to think "but everyone will refund their Mordekaiser stuff if we do that".

ViliceFeb 3, 20153 votes

So what? If the changes are awful then so be it. Of course the input of the customers should be valuable, that's how sane business models work.

Plus like I said "MAJOR" changes - like Soraka's move set being entirely different. Not balance issues.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20152 votes

Some portion of your customers won't like any given thing you do. You can mitigate it, but not avoid it. With items in your back catalog, giving them all refunds has a good chance of being revenue negative, because so many players have already bought the stuff and now regret it.

Telling a business they have a good chance to lose money doing a thing is telling them not to do it. The result of your proposed policy is that Riot stops doing big reworks like Sion or Poppy. That's a lousy result, no thanks.

ViliceFeb 3, 20153 votes

So you're saying that someone should have something they paid for yanked out from under them so that you can hope for future changes more often? Maybe players like you should be refunding these people, since you support them getting ripped off. If they weren't doing a terrible job, everybody wouldn't refund the character.

Either way talking to you is a relatively moot point. At no point in time will I agree with being ripped off as a good money maker for any company. My point is very simple and valid.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20153 votes

So you're saying that someone should have something they paid for yanked out from under them so that you can hope for future changes more often?

I want Riot to make the best changes for the future of the game. I don't want Riot to have to mothball a bunch of bad designs because it will cost them money to fix them. I want Riot to make money by fixing them.

If they weren't doing a terrible job, everybody wouldn't refund the character.

Many reworks have been quite good. For example, Tristana is a generally well liked rework. If you allowed refunds on her after the rework, you'd still see a big spike in refunds -- players often have skins they no longer care about or have since moved on to playing other champions.

For me, this is comparable to a game company releasing a new patch for their game, and then allowing you to refund your purchase of the older version of the game. Nobody does that, and for good reason; it'd cripple the business and discourage companies from ever patching their games.

ViliceFeb 3, 20153 votes

You are really only looking at one side of the fence. I have spent far more money than this game in it's entirety is worth if it wasn't on a "free to play" scam model. I haven't bought anything in a good while and I have no intention of doing so in the future because I have to be afraid that maybe even the day after I pay for something it will get radically changed and I'll just be up a creek without a paddle. It's just not worth it to me in that situation, and there are lots of other people that look at it the same way.

Risk of FateFeb 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You are really only looking at one side of the fence. I have spent far more money than this game in it's entirety is worth if it wasn't on a "free to play" scam model. I haven't bought anything in a good while and I have no intention of doing so in the future because I have to be afraid that maybe even the day after I pay for something it will get radically changed and I'll just be up a creek without a paddle. It's just not worth it to me in that situation, and there are lots of other people that look at it the same way.

"Free to play scam model?" Good sir, you are not forced to buy the skins or champions for real world money, they are there as an option. Nothing can be completely free, Riot has to make money in some way which is why they have put that in place.

When you buy that champion, you are essentially agreeing that you accept whatever happens to it, be it good or bad and under their ToS they can make changes to champions they want to do.

** A. The Software and the Game**. Riot Games may provide Updates to the Software that must be installed for you to continue to play the Game. Each time you launch the Software to play the Game, you hereby give your consent to Riot Games to remotely install any Updates to the Software that resides on your computer, with or without additional notification to you.

** B. License Agreement.** Riot Games reserves the right, in its sole and absolute discretion, to revise, update, change, modify, add to, supplement, or delete certain terms of this License Agreement as the Game and the law evolve; provided, however, that material changes to this License Agreement will not be applied retroactively. Such changes will be effective with or without prior notice to you. You can review the most current version of this License Agreement by clicking on the “EULA” link located at the bottom of the Site. You are responsible for checking this License Agreement periodically for changes. If the Software requires an Update at the time you launch the Software to access the Game, you will also have the opportunity to review and to accept or reject the current version of this License Agreement. If any future changes to this License Agreement are unacceptable to you or cause you to no longer be in agreement or compliance with this License Agreement, you may terminate this License Agreement in accordance with Section IX and must immediately stop playing the Game and uninstall the Software. Your continued use of the Game following any revision to this License Agreement constitutes your complete and irrevocable acceptance of any and all such changes.

That is why you should always consider first if you want to buy them with RP or IP. I've been trying to buy them all with the latter myself since it's more fun to work for the champion rather than "herp derp, I'm impatient and want them all now." Riot has done some pretty good things in some of the reworks, though a couple I wish they didn't do, but it's not so bad as I want a complete and entire refund of everything. The problem would only come in if they removed the champion completely, then I'd like at least some sort of discount or payback. Spending $20 on champion skins is somewhat of a dent in my pocket.

tl;dr Riot is a business, read their ToS, they need to make money as then they wouldn't be able to make changes that might be needed since the devs would have to take time away by working at other jobs instead of dedicating their time to League.

ViliceFeb 3, 20152 votes

You can go on about that stuff as much as you want but many other mobas have been successful with characters being free right at the start and charging for skins. If you had to pay ten bucks for every unit in StarCraft 2, I wonder how much that game would cost? No matter what the ToS says, it's really not worth the money and it's a bad practice. It's more or less a donation that they really don't appreciate you making. You're right about "buyer beware" though, which is why I wont spend money on this game anymore and I wouldn't suggest anybody do so.

Also, if you don't even buy RP why would you bother putting your two cents into the conversation? "herp derp I don't pay for anything and people that have should be irrelevant" People like me are what your free game is built on in the first place.

Risk of FateFeb 3, 20151 votes

Because I have a friend who's given me more than $600 worth of skins and RP alone? Yes, she has given me that much which I honestly don't like when she does that. If a change is made, the best thing I can do is say "Hey Riot, I don't like what you did and why," instead of "YOU SUCK FOR RUINING THIS CHAMP, WHY DON'T YOU NERF THIS GUY OR THAT GUY?"

StarCraft 2 is not a MOBA, it is RTS game which is far different, SMITE works on the same model, Dota 2 is the only exception but their sets are roughly around the same price of League's, the only difference is that you have all the heroes at the start.

Real life stores work on the same exact model, you don't buy a vacuum cleaner only to find they changed it a year later for a better model and demand that you get all your money back. No business can work on a "we'll give you all your money back if we make a new version for the current product" for every single thing.

EDIT: I've also got three champions with RP: Riven, Jinx, and Vi, so I haven't bought every champion with solely IP

EDIT 2: Okay, I think I might have gotten off on the wrong foot again, but I agree you should get a refund, but I don't think you should get a refund anytime you want, I was assuming this is a "I bought this champ with RP long ago, I want my money back now." The time limit on when you get refunds is a nice idea since it prevents people from buying something then getting their money back at any time to buy with another champ and essentially 'money juggling.'

RetillinFeb 3, 20152 votes

Here's the thing though, just in general not at anyone.

Refunding a champion with RP or IP doesn't really matter. Riot already has the money from the transfer. And unless there are some local laws overseas (outside the US) it's been banked. You refunding a champion does not take a single dollar out of their pockets. (unless you want to say that the extra server hit when everyone does it counts)

Now you can say it limits the money Riot is likely to make off a new skin/champ and that maybe right. Example refunding Sion to use those points towards Kalista for example. But the champs that have rather decent sized reworks (from let's say Sona/Raka/Sej to Sion) are not worth the same in points now vs new champs. So you should not get the original price but the current one. Skins are a bit different as they don't change prices in the same way.

But again, Riot doesn't LOSE money on a refund in game seeing as how you can not get that money back if they just give you the RP/IP.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 3, 20152 votes

Um yes it does. Because then you get additional content that you'd otherwise have to pay more money. I implore you, go buy a cheeseburger at McDonalds and then tell them you don't like how it tastes anymore and demand they give you a different item on the menu.

Risk of FateFeb 3, 20151 votes

What he's saying is this: You already bought the money to buy the things with, ie the RP credits, if you spend 100 on X then refund it, the 100 is still Riot's since you've already paid to put 100 worth of RP into the system which is where I realize that I'm an idiot and that's pretty much all I'm saying from this point on the matter, so ta ta

RetillinFeb 3, 20152 votes

No, that is not how this works at all. First off, that burger can not be reused so it is a net loss for the company. What we are dealing with here is a digital market. A much more similar analogy would be buying a song off itunes for example.

So you buy the song for $1. Something happens and you don't want that song, say the singer ends up raping someone, so you get a refund on it. However you can only get in-store credit. So you end up getting another song. Even if you sit on your $1 refund token for the song for 5 years the company still already has your money. It's not like they gave it back to you. Nothing is LOST in all of these transactions because nothing exchanges hands other than some time. As long as Riot only refunds IP/RP instead of putting money back on an account (and they don't do that) you have spent that money.

So that is how this works, it is nothing like a cheesburger at McDonalds because what you have is non-perishable, worth no money (outside of the game), and costs no money to ship/make. You getting rid of Rengar because they suddenly made him an AP mage, and trading that in for (at Rengars current price) the brand new ADC, is nothing but a side shift. Your money is already spent.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 3, 20152 votes

A skin costs no money to make? What about the man hours put into making it? The electricity used to power the computers, building, etc. The money used to maintain these computers. The money used to purchase the programs they use.

That burger costs no money either if you look at it that way. Someone grew the wheat to make the bun(for free) and raised the cow for the meat and cheese(also for free) then they give it to McDonald's who in return gives them money for the time they spent to procure these goods for them.

Just because it isn't traditional doesn't mean its non existent.

NarasimhaFeb 3, 20151 votes

You can go on about that stuff as much as you want but many other mobas have been successful with characters being free right at the start and charging for skins. If you had to pay ten bucks for every unit in StarCraft 2, I wonder how much that game would cost?

Are you complaining about SC2, or mobas? Because those aren't even remotely in the same category.

yellowbricksFeb 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

No. Creates a perverse incentive for Riot never to change anything.

Also, Soraka healing got hella buffed in her rework.

It'd probably be better that way seeing some of these reworks lately. Maybe they'd hire some actual competent designers if they want to mess around with what works. Are you against the consumer being able to say no to these dirty bait and switch tactics? This system right now creates a perverse incentive for players never to buy anything because they know it's going to get demolished at some point.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20153 votes

I want reworks. Not all of them are going to be great, because it's not like Riot got them right the first time and rework is harder than initial design. I still prefer a chance of a champion becoming a good design to guaranteed bad design.

I won't get reworks if every rework results in a wave of refunds. Even really good reworks will have that result, because you can't please everyone.

yellowbricksFeb 3, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I want reworks. Not all of them are going to be great, because it's not like Riot got them right the first time and rework is harder than initial design. I still prefer a chance of a champion becoming a good design to guaranteed bad design.

I won't get reworks if every rework results in a wave of refunds. Even really good reworks will have that result, because you can't please everyone.

Oh I want reworks too, but I'd rather they actually have to work at it. Look at the Cass rework, completely destroyed the reason a bunch of her old fanbase played her, and stashu listened to nothing, he just went on throwing numbers at it until the fotm kids claimed it was good because "muh winrate", and then he fucked off to Jamaica or something because we haven't seen him since. If riot stops doing reworks because they might have to refund players, that means they're not confident in their ability to bring out a good rework, and we probably wouldn't want that rework to begin with.

To balance the refund system a bit: Maybe give it a couple months grace period for the refunds to be valid, to avoid kneejerk reactions and give the rioter time to listen to feedback (or not). During this period, disallow sheer numbers buffs to avoid people like stashu just hypnotizing the community with "muh winrates" instead of actual good design. Anyone who played the champ during this period after each update and several times before the rework will get a pop-up in their client 2 months after the rework saying "are you happy with this rework or do you want a refund?". This way it won't just be a "oh I have this champ I never play gimme a refund I hate this rework rito!", people will have to play the champ a couple times to get the refund, and they might like it, provided the rework isn't bad.

Without some sort of check like refunds, riot has all the control over what happens to the champions and skins we paid money for, and they don't have any real incentive to do good. If refunds were in place with a system sort of like what I detailed (obviously it's not perfect, it'd need refining), it'd make riot actually think things through, and listen to community feedback more, and if we didn't like where they're going, we can get a refund to get another champ.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20152 votes

Look at the Cass rework, completely destroyed the reason a bunch of her old fanbase played her, and stashu listened to nothing, he just went on throwing numbers at it until the fotm kids claimed it was good because "muh winrate", and then he fucked off to Jamaica or something because we haven't seen him since.

Certainly the Cass rework is a great example of what not to do in the process of reworking a champion. Really poorly handled communication. In fairness, the initial design was almost unworkable. It's not a surprise that the rework design came out rough and hacky.

Not every rework has suffered from this. Mainly I think Riot needs to have a more clear process for their designers to follow in terms of how much communication they have with the community and when.

Maybe give it a couple months grace period for the refunds to be valid, to avoid kneejerk reactions and give the rioter time to listen to feedback (or not).

Even if you give it a couple months. You still end up with this problem where Riot is almost certainly losing money when they touch a champ. Basically, there's a pretty large amount of content that people once cared a lot about and now don't anymore.

For example, Gentleman Cho'Gath was once a big deal. Now he's not nearly as cool relative to other skins. If you allowed people to refund him, many people would. Leaving that hanging over a potential Cho'Gath rework in the future is strong enough incentive to ensure that Riot never wants to touch the champion.

RaptameiFeb 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No. Creates a perverse incentive for Riot never to change anything.

Looking at their latest reworks: Awesome.

KirbyCakeFeb 3, 20153 votes

this is why i don't buy skins, its just a giant scam

i wanted a refund on all my soraka skins but got denied, so screw riot

DisasterSolaFeb 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

this is why i don't buy skins, its just a giant scam

i wanted a refund on all my soraka skins but got denied, so screw riot

Actualkly, if you still have refund tokens theyre SUPPOSED to refund it and not use your tokens.

ViliceFeb 3, 20152 votes

I don't see why you should have to have available refund tokens for something like this. Customer happiness? More like ha-ha-ha we got your money deal with it.

DisasterSolaFeb 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't see why you should have to have available refund tokens for something like this. Customer happiness? More like ha-ha-ha we got your money deal with it.

A refund means that you get the IP/RP back. not the money.

And you need refund tokens in the system or else it doesnt work. they need to do a lot more finagling to do it without a refund token.

ViliceFeb 3, 20152 votes

I know what a refund means, but that "IP/RP" is either many hours you've spent or your actual money converted so I really don't see it as less important than money.

Looking at it that way, it sounds more like a bug that they don't care about because they'd rather you give them more money than be fair.

wolfaxFeb 3, 20151 votes

They are fair. They gave everyone 3 refunds with no questions asked. Normally refunds you have to give a long explanation and there's a lot of haggling to be done to receive a refund and you have to provide proof why.

TsundayFeb 3, 20153 votes

They used to do that up until the Karthus VU because they had a lot of people who just never plated Karthus was getting refunds for skins/champions just because they wanted the money. Not because they liked the old one and didn't like the new one

DanofDemaciaFeb 3, 20152 votes

Yes pls these ahri changes make me want to cry I spent my money on popstar ahri and I won't be able to use her anymore.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 3, 20152 votes

They changed this because people getting refunds just for the sake of it. I'm sure its also mentioned in the agreement you sign every patch so that you can play.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 3, 20152 votes

Also, no one is forcing you to buy anything. If the fact that a skin/champion could change at anytime isn't something you're okay with then... DON'T SPEND YOUR MONEY ON IT. Imagine this. Your phone comes with software on it. Maybe you really like that software. They update it. You don't get a refund for your phone because they've updated the software that comes on it.

DisasterSolaFeb 3, 20151 votes

They used to do this. Not anymore though.

Drunk RummateFeb 3, 20151 votes

i asked for this when they changed Gragas and they actually agreed to do it for me

but then they informed me that the mystery gifted skins I owned would send RP to their original owner rather than myself, so I ended up declining :[

DanofDemaciaFeb 3, 20151 votes

where do i ask them too?

Drunk RummateFeb 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

where do i ask them too?

I made a support ticket, but this was way back when they reworked Gragas so they may have changed their policy by now. It's also possible they were just being especially nice to me since I've spent so much money on their game.

ViliceFeb 3, 20151 votes

Honestly I doubt any gaming company would really care about this kind of stuff, that's why they have their disclaimers saying that you don't own anything you buy from them even remotely and they can terminate you at any time because you have an ugly face. Online gaming is such a dirty corrupt thing... Imagine going to a restaurant and getting this awesome bacon cheeseburger and half way through eating it a waiter comes out, takes it, and then brings you half of a stale veggie burger. Welcome to online gaming. So depressing.

wolfaxFeb 3, 20152 votes

Then don't play. You whine while pouring money into it. If you don't like it don't play it and let everyone else who is ok with it (which is pretty much everyone) continue on without you.