My solution to the Cinderhult situation

SdeIncognito·Apr 26, 2015·1 votes·674 views

Cinderhulk needs a change but, what change needs that makes it a "jungler only item"?

We could nerf its damage, we could test bonus to monsters, less to champions, we could lower the base stats, we could lower the %hp, but that would lead us to a meta full of fighters with nothing else viable since devourer will never be a thing on it's current state and magus is only used for nidalee/fiddlesticks.

So far now, the only item that has been nearly as dominant as the cinderhulk enchantment has been the feral flare. And the main problem of Cinderhulk is its over-viability on toplaners, so, if feral flare was broken as hell, why did I never see a feral flare toplaner?

Easy, it needs time to ramp-up, and more than time, it needs jungle camps, add a farming factor on the damage/%hp (with a cap, so we do not have the udyr situation we had on the feral flare, where you saw udyr in champselect, and at min 40 oneshotting the carries) of cinderhulk and that would take it out of the toplane.

Peace @Meddler, just give it an inside test and see the item die on the toplane because no toplaner can farm 40 jungle camps without distroying your jungle experience, and if he manages to steal that from the enemy jungle, that is a high risk high reward play style and should be rewarded. Also, if you read this, you are doing an amazing job this year so far, keep it up!

6 Comments

The5lackerApr 26, 20151 votes

Obvious solution is obvious: Remove the +25% bonus Health (the big reason people buy it.). Increase base health bonus to 500. Grant it 100% bonus Base health regen with a Rejuv Bead in the build path. Have Immolate damage scale on a % of Max Health so that tanks are still rewarded, and keep the 50% bonus damage to monsters from Bami's Cinder (which was removed from the finished product because...reasons?).

No more ubertanks, tanky junglers still have decent clear times, and Sunfire Cape becomes more immediately valuable to top laners again. Bam.

SdeIncognitoApr 26, 20152 votes

Isn't that taking away a huge lategame power for tanks?

The5lackerApr 28, 20151 votes

Yeah: Huge lategame power that's currently breaking the game.

Imagine Riot released an item that granted 25% bonus AD. And then someone suggested removing it and was met with "well doesn't that nerf AD Champs?" Yes. That's the intention. The +25% bonus is the problem. Solve the problem. Find a new solution to keep tanks relevant.

IcyPepperApr 28, 20151 votes

Reading this, it sounds like cinderhulk came across as a bandaid they slapped onto the jungle to get tanks back in? When in reality they need to go through individual tank champions and tweak them?

Not that I'm suggesting that, but it feels like it's implied here.

The5lackerApr 28, 20151 votes

Not exactly. I think that rewarding tank junglers for building tank is a good idea, and Juggernaut was rather terrible (especially seeing as Merc Treads are a thing and designed for tanks already.) The problem isn't "Unnecessary item broke tanks that just needed tweaking." The problem was "Solution to tanky junglers is worse than the problem of a lack of tanky junglers." Because +25% bonus Health on a low-cost, high-efficiency item is...lunacy. As we can clearly see due to the Smite/TP Top meta.

Again, obvious solution is obvious:

Cinderhulk Tier 2 Jungle Item (850g) + Bami's Cinder (1000g) + Rejuvenation Bead (180g) + Rejuvenation Bead (180) + 40g = 2250g

500 Health
100% base Health Regen

Unique Passive - Immolate - While in combat, generates an aura of fire that deals 15 (+1.5% maximum Health) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. Damage is increased by 50% against Monsters.

Bam. Stat efficient without being insane (And, incidentally, not much more health than current Cinderhulk because it counts itself), unique benefits over Sunfire Cape, strong reward for tanks that keeps them relevant in fights and with objective control, doesn't grant complete immortality to tanks on top of innately more efficient Sunfire Cape damage and grants a bit more of what Junglers actually want, some sustain.

Critmaster GarenApr 28, 20151 votes

why do you want to kill item diversity?

so far im seing people with ignite, tp, and smite going top. thats more variation in summoners and builds than there has been in years. and it doesnt really hurt the game that they take smite.

now make an item that makes ghost actually useful and we might actually have some variation in summoners you can pick in lane.

and im saying that as someone who prefers to pick ignite on top. ive never actually ran smite top and only played against people running the summoner in lane so far.

they give up duelling power with ignite, or map control with tp, to secure objectives with smite.

dont forget that smite and cinederhulk are only really useful on champions with a very specific focus on tankyness and contineous damage. shyvana and rumble can make good use of it since gromp buff helps them trade in lane, and the health on cinderhulk synergizes with their usual builds.

the real problem is lcs sheep who pick smite on every champion without even making proper use of it, or even knowing why it can be useful on specific champions. but that should settle down after a while.

its the same stupid discussion like back when some people ran duo top lanes with relic shield instead of a jungler. the game finally saw an actual change in the meta and more than 1 viable strategy to play the game with two duo lanes. and people freaked out not because jungling wasnt viable anymore, because it was. but because thats not how youre "supposed" to play the game, and the item got nerfed to kill that strategy.