Ranged faster than melees

Kingazzklappa·Mar 14, 2018·64 votes·3,212 views

Every other core adc items gives movespeed, take jhin; rapid fire cannon, static shive, mercurial septer, boots of swiftness and yomumus all really good items on him that provide hellish movespeed, pair this with fleet footwork and an offspec in celerity and pls tell me what a melee can do? Explain to me why a RANGED character should have more movespeed than a MELEE character who can only do something when he finally CATCHES up to the ranged? Lets not even talk about peel btw whats the point of getting fed top lane you can't do anything at all whatsoever to an adc because you literally cannot touch them. Then people complain top is boring, its like oh I wonder why maybe because winning the lane doesn't even fucking matter anymore; the best top is the top that can soak up most damage before dying. They mideswell come out with a champion for top lane that literally does nothing but be a good damage absorber I bet he'd be god tier... oh wait there already are champs like that cough cough maoukai, orn, malphite. This game use to be fun but then all you adc nut huggers have managed to turn a 10 player game into a game where only 1 role matters; adc.

117 Comments

InfernapeMar 14, 201838 votes

He is.... the fast.

DragonSheaMar 14, 201814 votes

{quoted}

He is.... the fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrP0H-n0x3Q

Shuriman CuratorMar 14, 201822 votes

When I play Darius, and know I'm going up against a movement speed comp I usually go phase rush take flash/ghost(duh) have to build item 3742 item 2053 into banner or zzrot and item 3800 , honestly it sometimes feel like it isn't enough lmfao, same with garen, the shit you need to do to get on to an adc or other high priority ranged target as a melee. Fuck I don't even take tp anymore, need the run down potential from ghost.

KythersMar 14, 20189 votes

are you playing the mysterious one bruiser that has no gapcloser? are you a morde player or something

Critmaster GarenMar 14, 201823 votes

{quoted}

are you playing the mysterious one bruiser that has no gapcloser? are you a morde player or something

implying marksmen dont have mobility tools aswell.

ThefrostyvikingMar 14, 20185 votes

Ashe KogMaw Kaisa Varus MissFortune (movespeed but no dash) Jhin Draven Sivir Xayah .

9 marksmen who do not have any kind of mobility giving ability, only a few speedups.

They are entirely reliant on their team to stop divers and assassins, with the exception of Xayah who can dodge 1 big hit.'

"Edit"

I forgot about Jinx .

Critmaster GarenMar 14, 20187 votes

{quoted}

(movespeed but no dash) .

9 marksmen who do not have any kind of mobility giving ability, only a few speedups.

vs.

Caitlyn Corki Ezreal Graves Kalista Kindred Lucian Quinn Tristana Vayne

10 who do. so my statement is still accurate.

and Kaisa technically has a dash on her ult too. together with her e, that makes her pretty mobile. so that would be 11 vs. 8. but for the sake of the argument, shure. lets call her not very mobile.

ThefrostyvikingMar 14, 201810 votes

Graves and Quinn are not counted as marksmen by Riot, nor are they balanced as such.

Kindred is counted as one but she doesnt really play like any other does.

And traditionally, calling a champ mobile in lol means they have a dash or a significantly powerful and long speedup on relatively short cooldown like Hecarims E.

Kai sa has a ...1,5? 2? Seconds speedup and her ulti.

People don't consider Shyvana to be mobile without her ulti despite the existence of her W.

I also edited my first comment, i actually forgot about Jinx......

So comparing mobile vs immobile marksmen, It's 7 vs 10.

Sinister AnubisMar 14, 20182 votes

Its actually 8 immobile marksmen to 7 mobile marksmen. Note that i am only counting the ones who get played bot lane in the traditional sense.

DontTouchMyHoHosMar 14, 20182 votes

Ops post has nothing to do with marksmen adc. Iys just ranged in general so all range apply. The label has nothing to do with it. Its purely based on ranged champs, regardless of label.

VenomarMar 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ops post has nothing to do with marksmen adc.

core adc items gives movespeed pair this with fleet footwork and an offspec in celerity can't do anything at all whatsoever to an adc because you literally cannot touch them. This game use to be fun but then all you adc nut huggers have managed to turn a 10 player game into a game where only 1 role matters; adc.

Critmaster GarenMar 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Graves and Quinn are not counted as marksmen by Riot, nor are they balanced as such.

are you fucking kidding me?

theyre building like marksmen. theyre dealing ranged sustained damage with auto attacks. riot groups them in with marksmen.

they pop up in the champion search bar when you type "marksman" aswell.

you could have somewhat of an argument with teemo, jayce and kennen which i didnt name, because i wanted to keep the argument fair. but graves and quinn clearly belong grouped in with the rest of them.

redniwediSMar 14, 20183 votes

Just to correct things they are counted as Marksmen, but not counted as ADCs as they rarely go bot lane.

Critmaster GarenMar 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Just to correct things they are counted as Marksmen, but not counted as ADCs as they rarely go bot lane.

adc has nothing to do with bot lane.

tryn is an adc, yi is an adc, yasuo is an adc, kindred is an adc, darius is an adc. "adc" literally just means the champion builds ad and deals sustained damage. thats what an attack damage carry is.

none of them goes bot lane (at least usually), and except for kindred they arent even marksmen.

we werent talking about adc. we were talking about marksmen.

redniwediSMar 14, 20182 votes

Marksman is an official class name. ADC is the commonly used term for the bot lane carry position, and doesn't really have anything to necessarily do with being an attack damage based carry.

TheFrostyViking said Marksmen in his post, but most likely meant ADC, as Graves and Quinn are not considered bot lane champions anymore.

Critmaster GarenMar 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Marksman is an official class name. ADC is the commonly used term for the bot lane carry position, and doesn't really have anything to necessarily do with being an attack damage based carry.

TheFrostyViking said Marksmen in his post, but most likely meant ADC, as Graves and Quinn are not considered bot lane champions anymore.

commonly misused term. i bet you 90% of the player population doesnt even know what the abbreviation even stands for. they just joined somewhere after season 2 as new players and got told that ranged adc walk bot lane, and started treating "bot" and "adc" as if they were the same thing.

after 7 years of marksmen monopoly over bot lane, people just became incapable of distinguishing between the position and the champion type. as evident by the fact that you even had most people call ziggs an "adc" when he went bot. they struggled to understand the concept of anything going bot that isnt a ranged ad carry.

in other mobas, "adc" still means "attack damage carry" and includes melee and ranged champions. its really just a league specific problem that marksmen are just such better carries than melee carries, that you need one on every team, and that theyre the only ones referred to as "adc".

something that riot at least announced theyre finally going to deal with.

iCloud9Mar 14, 20182 votes

okay boi.... ima hate to hurt your feelings here.... since end of season 2 beginning of 3 when the adc support meta started... ranged carries have been known as ADCS and go to the bottom lane. Riot for 5 years has been calling marksman ADC's and only referring them as that. when you play zed yasuo, you are not reffering to those as adcs you are referring to them as ad mids.

instead of being butthurt over a role and how it doesnt match what you want... realise that most do know adc means attack damage carry, apc means ability power carry, and that people dgaf because they will refer to botlane as adcs.

graves and quinn are MOBILE range carries. they are played in other roles because they can get around quickly and deal high damage.

Critmaster GarenMar 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

okay boi.... ima hate to hurt your feelings here.... since end of season 2 beginning of 3 when the adc support meta started... ranged carries have been known as ADCS and go to the bottom lane. Riot for 5 years has been calling marksman ADC's and only referring them as that. when you play zed yasuo, you are not reffering to those as adcs you are referring to them as ad mids.

instead of being butthurt over a role and how it doesnt match what you want... realise that most do know adc means attack damage carry, apc means ability power carry, and that people dgaf because they will refer to botlane as adcs.

graves and quinn are MOBILE range carries. they are played in other roles because they can get around quickly and deal high damage.

just because a lot of people started misusing the term doesnt mean its correct.

you see a lot of people not getting their shit together and misuse theyre, there, theirs every day. this doesnt suddenly mean it makes sense.

riot originally tagged marksmen and melee carries as adc by the way. i know this because i played the game back then.

Sinister AnubisMar 14, 20183 votes

Corki Graves Kindred Quinn are not adc's they are played in other lane's/jungle. Also quinn can be hard cc when she use's her E. Even when you look up ADC bot lane in the game lobby you wont even see those i have mentioned.

DontTouchMyHoHosMar 14, 20183 votes

Still ranged. Ops post is about ranged champions. So they count.

Sinister AnubisMar 14, 20182 votes

That is true but i was commenting on the replys here given that we was talking about adc's in a traditional sense i assumed. If we was going to talk about ranged champions that would imply everything that can throw an AA which would also be all the mages as well as some supports and what no to many to list. Which kind of makes the argument invalid because champions like graves and corki don't even build the same way as in getting multiple items that give movement speed.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 14, 20182 votes

Corki builds Attack Damage.

Kindred builds attack damage.

Graves builds attack damage.

Quinn builds attack damage.

Yep they are all ADCs.

Sinister AnubisMar 15, 20182 votes

Aatrox Camille Darius Fiora Gangplank Garen Gnar Hecarim Illaoi Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce Kayn Khazix Kled LeeSin MasterYi Nocturne Olaf Pantheon RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Shaco Shyvana Sion Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Urgot Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zed I guess since these guys build AD they are ADC to right?

Romans VI XXIIIMar 15, 20182 votes

Yes actually they can be.

KingazzklappaMar 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

(movespeed but no dash) .

9 marksmen who do not have any kind of mobility giving ability, only a few speedups.

They are entirely reliant on their team to stop divers and assassins, with the exception of Xayah who can dodge 1 big hit.'

"Edit"

I forgot about .

Out of the marksmen you listed only kogmaw has issues with this, and when I say issues I do not mean problems because as Kogmaw you can just play the range game with your extra W range and your moves to keep melees 2 miles away from you; in short just play back. All these other adc have so many tools to not get caught by a melee its embarrassing that you even consider them for an example... Considering every adc having over 9000 move speed items/masteries I'm only going to talk about their kits. Starting from the top, Ashe; perma slow from autos AND abilities not to mention she can just ult you if you do break the perma slow attack move family friendly gameplay style. That new Void champ has a dash which makes her invisible... do I even need to explain why that's significant? Varus has the option to play extremely long with his Qs (longer range than xeraph's Q range) and has the nice and dandy root on his ult that last from now till they bring in a SpongeBob narrator. Missfortune's movespeed is insane and it can be triggered to maximize it and provide it in combat with its active capability. Jhin I already covered in my post, Draven has his W and his E to deal with any breaks in the fun friendly ima kite melee forever gameplay. Sivir has a spell shield to make sure she doesn't get rooted or slowed and then her ult with the super fun ima walk away in your face 10/10 mechanic. And for gods sake Xayah has a root, movespeed buff and a invulnerability. Oh and funny how hard people try and warp the conversation my making sure they just talk about adcs in a format that hides the fact that they have a support to further peel for them and then everyone else to do the same because the games turned into a who can support the adc harder game.

ThefrostyvikingMar 14, 20182 votes

Ashe is extremely vulnerable to any kind of gapcloser, her slow is ultimately entirely useless against those, and you can stack 70%+ tenacity if you actually want to.

That means her passive damage boost gets outright disabled if she doesn't attack you twice each second......

Kog play the range game? He relies entirely on someone stunning and slowing the diver for him, if they get ontop of him he can't do anything by himself.

And actually the movespeed tends to be around 430, which is still among the slower ones, have you ever seen how quickly anyone with predator goes? Marksmen without mobility rely on movespeed to avoid enemies but some things are just too fast to dodge x)

Kai sa? At max rank she gains a 150% movespeed buff.....for a entire 0,7 seconds..... Her kiting is worse than even Ashe.

And seriously? Are you even playing this game? Varus Q damage? Have you actually played under the last 10 months? This thing gets used for its damage in lane and never after, post that it's a tool to proc his W and nothing more, he wont have the AD to deal any kind of notable damage with it.

His Root is 2 seconds, with 60% tenacity which any melee can get if they want, that root will last for 0,8 seconds.....about as long as quinn E?

Draven relies on catching his Q to do any real damage so hes the damn most predicable marksman ever made, you can always tell where he is going and breaking his pattern is easy, only time he gets good is when he can aggressively trade, heal back up and go in again before the opponent can do the same, that or when he can deal a significantly higher amount of damage and gain a crushing lead from the start.

Sivir......literally one of the least played marksmen ever made because she dies too much regardless of how well you play? Spellshield? How about i wait for a second or just use some filler like ability for 1 second while she tries but fails to kill anything due to a lack of damage.

Her ulti is the only notable thing about her aside from waveclear, and if she uses it to run away then you can just back off and engage on her 30 seconds later and she´ll be boned, A spellshield does not have that much impact in the current game.

MF can indeed kite........the same things as Ashe, meaning slow and immobile melee, anything else and she dies pretty quickly, which is why she lets her support engage and stunlock targets while she ults them......which has gotten nerfed to the point where she is hardly played much either-

Xayah is indeed quite good at kiting melee, but you know....her root is extremely telegraphed, her speedup is pretty low and it's main use is a damage steroid, what really shines on her when it comes to surviving is her ulti, it lets you avoid big hits like Vi ulti, MF ulti or Ashe ulti.

She is very helpless without it though.

Have you actually played these champions? You make it sound like each and everyone of them is some impossible to catch animal that also cant be killed.......somehow i get the impression you´ve been playing against some extremely fed ones, a lot.

Smurf trauma?

3ternalkarmaMar 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ashe is extremely vulnerable to any kind of gapcloser, her slow is ultimately entirely useless against those, and you can stack 70%+ tenacity if you actually want to.

That means her passive damage boost gets outright disabled if she doesn't attack you twice each second......

Kog play the range game? He relies entirely on someone stunning and slowing the diver for him, if they get ontop of him he can't do anything by himself.

And actually the movespeed tends to be around 430, which is still among the slower ones, have you ever seen how quickly anyone with predator goes? Marksmen without mobility rely on movespeed to avoid enemies but some things are just too fast to dodge x)

Kai sa? At max rank she gains a 150% movespeed buff.....for a entire 0,7 seconds..... Her kiting is worse than even Ashe.

And seriously? Are you even playing this game? Varus Q damage? Have you actually played under the last 10 months? This thing gets used for its damage in lane and never after, post that it's a tool to proc his W and nothing more, he wont have the AD to deal any kind of notable damage with it.

His Root is 2 seconds, with 60% tenacity which any melee can get if they want, that root will last for 0,8 seconds.....about as long as quinn E?

Draven relies on catching his Q to do any real damage so hes the damn most predicable marksman ever made, you can always tell where he is going and breaking his pattern is easy, only time he gets good is when he can aggressively trade, heal back up and go in again before the opponent can do the same, that or when he can deal a significantly higher amount of damage and gain a crushing lead from the start.

Sivir......literally one of the least played marksmen ever made because she dies too much regardless of how well you play? Spellshield? How about i wait for a second or just use some filler like ability for 1 second while she tries but fails to kill anything due to a lack of damage.

Her ulti is the only notable thing about her aside from waveclear, and if she uses it to run away then you can just back off and engage on her 30 seconds later and she´ll be boned, A spellshield does not have that much impact in the current game.

MF can indeed kite........the same things as Ashe, meaning slow and immobile melee, anything else and she dies pretty quickly, which is why she lets her support engage and stunlock targets while she ults them......which has gotten nerfed to the point where she is hardly played much either-

Xayah is indeed quite good at kiting melee, but you know....her root is extremely telegraphed, her speedup is pretty low and it's main use is a damage steroid, what really shines on her when it comes to surviving is her ulti, it lets you avoid big hits like Vi ulti, MF ulti or Ashe ulti.

She is very helpless without it though.

Have you actually played these champions? You make it sound like each and everyone of them is some impossible to catch animal that also cant be killed.......somehow i get the impression you´ve been playing against some extremely fed ones, a lot.

Smurf trauma?

are you counting the amount of peel they get from their team? last i checked no real support will let you touch them

BestPudgeNAMar 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

(movespeed but no dash) .

9 marksmen who do not have any kind of mobility giving ability, only a few speedups.

They are entirely reliant on their team to stop divers and assassins, with the exception of Xayah who can dodge 1 big hit.'

Stun arrow is a thing, MF has movespeed, Jinx has movespeed, Varus R is a thing, More then half those champs have a movespeed slow. More then half can take fleet footwork for MS. Draven can throw his Axes to knock people out of dashes. Sivir can spell shield a lot of the games "one big hit"

edit: Forgot Kaisa has a MS ability that gives her invis if she has over 100 attack speed.

Spank the FoxMar 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WVJ7nut3,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-14T12:20:03.357+0000)

implying marksmen dont have mobility tools aswell.

A lot of them are exceptionally shitty mobility spells.

KarbuncleMar 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WVJ7nut3,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2018-03-14T14:35:06.008+0000)

A lot of them are exceptionally shitty mobility spells.

Which ones are shitty? The worst ones are Vayne and Kindred, but you're a moron for even saying 300-340 movements are shitty.

kargishMar 14, 20188 votes

Let's be honest though. The reason why ranged champion get % movement speed through items, is because their kits don't give any form of mobility. Ashe Draven Caitlyn KogMaw Jhin Xayah Varus Vayne these champions for an example either have small dashes, some movement speed or nothing. Melees on the other hand got the mobility they need in their kit.

Multi dashes: Yasuo Khazix Fiora Fizz LeeSin Riven Rengar Akali High movement speed: Rammus Warwick Rengar Jayce Kayn Singed Udyr

Even so melees that lack engage tools can go item 3742 item 3800 to cover up that weakness, and then stick to opponents with item 3143 .

Think it's okay for carries to have a few extra % movement speed to be able to kite efficiently.

AirKingNeoMar 14, 20182 votes

also having to auto attack forces you to stop moving. Another reason.

Sp33d Zer0Mar 14, 20186 votes

You picked the worst example to complain about.

Jhin has one of the lowest sustained dps of all adcs
His reload mechanic is only effective because his move speed allows him to dip away when he has to use it
This effect only happens when he crits or fires his last shot. Jhin scales fairly poorly in comparison to other adcs and this lets him actually remain semi viable as a late game threat

SephAgroMar 14, 20183 votes

Jhin is an example of a good adc. Reload and ammunition needs to be more of a thing in the same way that mana is a thing for mages

Sp33d Zer0Mar 14, 20183 votes

"But mages have infinite mana and you don't need to worry about that amazing skill requirement anymore! "

SephAgroMar 14, 20184 votes

"then buy ammunition items or the [faster reload item]" its so unfair that other roles have to invest in pure utility items to be viable (mana) while adcs just go full dmg

Maple CrusaderMar 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WVJ7nut3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-03-14T14:09:27.301+0000)

You picked the worst example to complain about.

Jhin has one of the lowest sustained dps of all adcs

His reload mechanic is only effective because his move speed allows him to dip away when he has to use it

This effect only happens when he crits or fires his last shot. Jhin scales fairly poorly in comparison to other adcs and this lets him actually remain semi viable as a late game threat

You forgot the fact that Jhin gets move-speed when he crits as well.

Sp33d Zer0Mar 14, 20182 votes

This effect only happens when he crits or fires his last shot

redniwediSMar 14, 20183 votes

Sadly it's nothing new. Ranged have peeling and raw speed on their side, and when sustain is strong they are not even weak to a battle of attrition. Melee either takes a real strong engagement tool with high damage/high cc, or a whole lot of dedication.

Sex With AnnieMar 14, 20183 votes

Yikes, now they're complaining about jhin. Who's next, kalista?

GayFluffyUnicornMar 14, 20182 votes

Why wouldnt u complain about an abomination like kalista? Easily the worst designed champion in league and also the most broken. I'd even rate her higher than azir in terms of broken design.

Sex With AnnieMar 15, 20182 votes

kalista has a 45% wr, you need to chill out.

Jerry SeinfeIdMar 15, 20182 votes

because her design is thrash and she's kept weak. Kalista is the dumbest thing in this game. as for jhin, he's not as well designed ass all his dickriders on these boards want to believe.

Z3SleeperMar 14, 20183 votes

Tons of champions have built in ways to catch up to the ADC, be it a dash, ranged CC or whatever. In order for an ADC to attack they have to be in attack range, typically this range is the similar threat range of many champions' engage ranges.

Plus we have this item: item 3800 and these items: item 3742 item 2053 .

And everyone has a 5 minute cooldown instant free access spell summoner 4 . Sure they can Flash too, but if you flash oneshot or flash CC they can't. An instantaneous blink isn't the easiest thing to react to.

Mind you this is coming from a Yorick main. One of the more immobile champions and yet I can't say ADC mobility has ever been an issue. Shields and peel sure, but their innate mobility? Never.

Some of League's most immobile tanks are the most effective right now due to item 3800 .

Look at Volibear Skarner Chogath .

And it's not as though we don't have answers to mobility either: Malphite Zac Ornn

Even Bruisers are doing perfectly fine in this department due to item 3742 , which is even getting buffed soon.

Some even take summoner 6 or Phase Rush for this reason.

The measly 15-20% movement speed from the Zeal items isn't making ADCs untouchable, it gives them some room to actually kite if they can wiggle out after someone DOES jump on them.

TrampaMar 14, 20182 votes

I mean there are certain champs / items that can solve this problem.

Rammus Sion Amumu Nasus Poppy Warwick all can chase down / help out against speedy enemies. If I play someone with good cc / a grab / engage of sort you can just go item 3800 item 3907 item 3142 item 3905 to slow them down. TL;DR there are ways to catch them, I don't really have issues with this.

KingazzklappaMar 14, 20181 votes

The only champ in that list that not gonna get guaranteed kited is ww and even then it's not like he has a reliable charge, his ult collides with the first person hit good luck getting to an adc that already has more movement speed than you with any type of other character helping him, cough cough a support. Oh and nasus and sion catch adc? XD please stop joking around because unless your still playing season 3 somehow nasus wither range is like 500 units and they made mercurial just in case. Oh and those items you mentioned either don't fit toplaner well at all or in the case of righteous glory have a large enough window to not be easily stopped. Why is it that the melee characters gotta rely on special windows of time to catch up? It should be the opposite ranged already have everything in tinbuctu going for them to kite melees but now they also literally have more movespeed than said melee just to really get that gameplay all your adc nut huggers cream your pants about.

Jet SettMar 14, 20184 votes

Amumu is an engage tank that locks down the enemy team, if he Q's in and ults them the kiting is irrelevant because it's not happening. If Rammus and Poppy are "guaranteed" kiting you're either complaining because you want to and not from a need to, or you seriously think they have trouble catching anyone.

And if you believe Mercurial is the end all be all for Wither you must not have been in a Nasus game for the first 30 minutes.

KingazzklappaMar 14, 20181 votes

Oh right because mercurial scepter and Mikael's crucible on a support aren't things that exist to easily rid that problem. Oh and pretty funny how your using Nasus's early to mid game as an example when all he is good at is being a LATE game champ. Right I'm the one not playing Nasus.

Jet SettMar 14, 20184 votes

You think Nasus is a late game champion? That's amazing. At what point do ADC's build Mercurial before their 3rd item without there being either a high amount of hard cc, or Nasus is fed and withering them all the time? Nasus is strong early to mid game and then falls off a damn cliff in terms of what he can do, all he has is Q damage by then and the ADC will actually have the items to deal with his tankiness and Wither.

There are also much more effective and important items for supports to be building before even considering Mikael's as an option.