Black cleaver and how it effects top laners

Exalted Kayle·Aug 1, 2017·10 votes·1,256 views

Wouldn't it be simpler to not allow ranged champions to use black cleaver than nerfing it into the ground and completely hurting champions like darius garen riven and the like? And if so could we ever see the nerfed changes reverted and just making cleaver melee only like tiamat.

Edit: And also couldnt we just rework darius as its very unfun to be slowed into the past and kited, i understand thats his weakness but i'd rather have less tankyness on darius but more mobility. -- Theres no planned cleavers nerfs right now im talking about old nerfs, secondly the only champions i see Affecting this nerf reset and making cleaver melee only is the champions that shouldnt be using it in the first place IMO.

27 Comments

Radiant WukongAug 1, 20173 votes

They're nerfing the cleaver? My Wukong though!

Beas7ieAug 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VAAQ1eqh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-01T19:21:43.802+0000)

They're nerfing the cleaver? My Wukong though!

They also nerf stuff like that and screw over the melee people because ranged people can abuse the crap out of it.

Critmaster GarenAug 1, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VAAQ1eqh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-01T19:21:43.802+0000)

They're nerfing the cleaver? My Wukong though!

no nerfs on the pbe. i think hes referring to the previous armor shred nerf.

imo if they want to buff the item again, id rather they slap 100 more health on it and increase the price a tad.

buffs like these always seem to favour melee champs more than ranged, who hate investing more gold into health over ad or the armor shred.

AirKingNeoAug 1, 20172 votes

The armor pen nerf was because of the change to armor items, making is just to keep it in check.

AeszarckAug 1, 20172 votes

Did you mean "affects"?

Dominick DestineAug 1, 20172 votes

English is not my native language.

I would ask all native english speakers for what reason "affect" and "effect" are confused so often..... it is a very curious phenomenon as someone that never took a single formal english class.

EndlessSorcererAug 1, 20171 votes

Their pronunciation, spelling and meaning are rather similar.

Dominick DestineAug 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Their pronunciation

... is completely different.

spelling

... is diffrerent.

and meaning

... is different.

We're not talking about a homophone or a homograph, we're talking about two completely different words, that while derive from the same etymological source (Gramem) still don't equate with each other because of the basic rules of conjugation.

I mean.... without meaning to sound rude , I assume they teach conjungation in U.S. schools.... right...? I legitimately don't know, as I said I have never taken a single formal english class in my life, I learned english from watching TV and reading Nintendo booklets in the 80s as a young child.

In Mexico, we don't have a particularly stellar education system (to say the least) when it comes to foreign language or history.

TyrekGoldenspearAug 1, 20171 votes

Hablas Espanol?

Dominick DestineAug 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hablas Espanol?

Obviamente. A cada rato digo que aprendi ingles viendo la tele y leyendo libritos de NES entre 1987-1990.... aun asi, prefiero [por MUCHISIMO] hablar ingles.

That is to say, yes lol, I obviously speak spanish, I am of course, a denizen of Mexico. I make no secret of this and say it regularly, ask Ariel-kun. I make jokes about it all the time.... ask him how I often eat tortillas while we are on VOIP playing ARAM or Ascension.... he doesn't think it's playing to the stereotype but Ariel-kun is a super contrarian.

Pero para aquellos que me entiendan, no es mi culpa que fui un niño prodigio que podia aprender cualquier cosa casi automaticamente : P

Aunque mi hiper ultra mega talento fue desapareciendo con la edad, gg.

TyrekGoldenspearAug 1, 20171 votes

Jaja, hablo Espanol.

I'm actually half-hispanic, so I know quite a bit of spanish. As I understand, you prefer to speak English.

Dominick DestineAug 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Jaja, hablo Espanol.

I honestly would have never guessed.

I'm actually half-hispanic

Cool.

As I understand, you prefer to speak English.

Yes. I was kind of filibustering.... I was referring to my childhood and how it's not fault I was a child prodigy that learned things nearly automatically; I literally learned to play the piano by watching someone do it ONCE.... my mother bought me a keyboard and I kept learning tunes by ear, harder and harder each time because I got bored as soon as I mastered one. I consider myself a complete retard compared to what I used to be, I was legit a child prodigy.... but being in an environment of stupidity (In Mexico, intelligence is considered bad) where everyone is complacent sapped my spirit and I became complacent too.... I wish I had the instinct, the drive I used to have to learn anything and everything as aggressively as possible (My initiative was unparalleled; No one WANTED to learn things as badly/as quickly as I did).

Anyway kind of a funny story (At least to me), whenever I went to school, or my mother made me do chores, or I was forced to attend some family function it was always necessary to speak spanish, I was doing this by force (I.e. "Because I must") and in my free time, doing "fun things" was always in english (Playing video games, reading booklets, watching TV).

So in a very strange way, it's like my mind was programmed to associate "Fun" with english and "unfun" with spanish. In real life I'm considered INCREDIBLY stoic and serious (Never laugh) but as soon as I start to speak in english my mannerisms, tone, inflections and even facial expressions soften a lot.

I have skimmed a couple of neurological studies that indicate that switching language does in fact change a person's behavior, mannerisms and all of that stuff I mentioned... in my case I accidentally "wired my brain" to make me super personable and "Charming" (It doesn't come across over the internet) when I am speaking english but super serious and stoic in spanish.

As I am a university professor, I come across as a real hard-ass (so to speak) except to my english speaking students who all describe me as very weird but super nice and funny.

Etc. I love english, I hate spanish. Spanish super rigid. English super flexible.

EndlessSorcererAug 1, 20171 votes

They are similar enough that I could plausibly see people confusing them in conversation. Depending on the speaker's accent, it might be difficult for some people to differentiate "affect" and "effect".

Context and sentence structure should be sufficient to determine which word is being used but it might not be apparent unless you already knew the difference between them and their proper usage.

As I'm Canadian, I cannot speak on the state of the education system within the United States.

Dominick DestineAug 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

They are similar enough that I could plausibly see people confusing them in conversation. Depending on the speaker's accent

OH, that's actually a really really good point.

I forgot about accents. Yeah I see it now. Good point..... the only accent I ever run into is the typical "Normal" U.S. accent (Think California). I had a girlfriend that was from Galveston and I liked... no, absolutely adored the way she talked. It was so fucking cute, my god. She was a very attractive woman but even if she was butt fugly, just the cute way of talking would have made me feel super attracted to her.

I would love to learn more about U.S. accents and dialects but it's very difficult from where I am in Mexico.... my favorite of course is the Texas accent but I also like the slight mid-western drawl. I have a niece that has a "southern belle" accent despite having grown up in Folson California (WTF? I have no idea either) and her manner of speaking is cute as hell.

Also I recently met a woman from "Oregon" which I only discovered was pronounced "Organ" yesterday, and she talked with a strange accent I couldn't quite place.... I was fascinated by the way she spoke. She was about 10 years older than me and only average looks, but I say without shame, I found her incredibly attractive just on the basis of her mysterious accent.

I love english and I love learning more about accents...... damn it Ariel-kun, why don't you have an exotic accent?

EDIT: I have a very slight "foreigner" accent, but I've been told I sound "european" or "Iraqi" (WTF?)..... when I listen to myself after recording my voice, I don't detect it but I guess that's normal for everyone.

For the curious, here is what I sound like [youtube video about some stuff] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNNa9CzJ5w I do NOT think I sound european but shrug.

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VAAQ1eqh,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-08-01T22:51:01.956+0000)

... is completely different.

... is diffrerent.

... is different.

We're not talking about a homophone or a homograph, we're talking about two completely different words, that while derive from the same etymological source (Gramem) still don't equate with each other because of the basic rules of conjugation.

I mean.... without meaning to sound rude , I assume they teach conjungation in U.S. schools.... right...? I legitimately don't know, as I said I have never taken a single formal english class in my life, I learned english from watching TV and reading Nintendo booklets in the 80s as a young child.

Um... the conjugation in English is very strange. It's not really emphasized that much.

Not to mention, there are ways they can be used to mean the same thing, although I can't think of them at the moment.

xToxicOsirisxAug 1, 20172 votes

How many adcs are actually using cleaver? atm I can only think of 1 and thats MissFortune .

MagicFlyingLlamaAug 1, 20171 votes

I too approve of darius nerfs. At least for treeline.

Darius turns treeline into a 4v3.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 1, 20171 votes

So we're giving a big nerf to Gnar, and mild nerfs to Urgot, Jayce, Lucian, and Graves. Nothing about how Renekton and Jarvan in pro play are buying Cleaver and Hydra every game. Nothing about how Cleaver crowds out options for the melees that you mention by being so much better than any other damage option. Nothing about how Cleaver pretty much forces assassins into buying it at 4th item because of its passives. Just get rid of it for ranged and that will fix all of its problems.

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So we're giving a big nerf to Gnar, and mild nerfs to Urgot, Jayce, Lucian, and Graves. Nothing about how Renekton and Jarvan in pro play are buying Cleaver and Hydra every game. Nothing about how Cleaver crowds out options for the melees that you mention by being so much better than any other damage option. Nothing about how Cleaver pretty much forces assassins into buying it at 4th item because of its passives. Just get rid of it for ranged and that will fix all of its problems.

Big nerfs to Urgot and Jayce, they have almost no tankfighting potential without Cleaver.

Also a huge nerf to duelist Quinn, Cleaver is 100% core in her build D:

LW is a just a really bad early item for ranged top laners, and they can't really deal with tanks otherwise.

Chembaron YamadaAug 1, 20171 votes

Not to mention that the synergy between Urgot and Black Cleaver is so good, it feels like they were designing him around it.

Gets movement speed for passive procs, easy shred stacking with W and he gets health + AD, 2 stats he absolutely loves.

Making Black Cleaver melee only should never happen, it would hurt him way too much.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 1, 20171 votes

Yeah, I haven't played new Urgot too much so I don't know his build path well enough. I listed Jayce as a smaller nerf and didn't list Quinn because they can function without it with an early BoRK instead.

DaNinadAug 1, 20171 votes

People build BC on quinn?

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

People build BC on quinn?

Bork+BC+PD is pretty standard tankshred/duelist Quinn build.

Asayake 5150glowAug 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancer Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VAAQ1eqh,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-01T19:20:15.115+0000)

Wouldn't it be simpler to not allow ranged champions to use black cleaver than nerfing it into the ground and completely hurting champions like darius garen riven and the like? And if so could we ever see the nerfed changes reverted and just making cleaver melee only like tiamat.

Edit: And also couldnt we just rework darius as its very unfun to be slowed into the past and kited, i understand thats his weakness but i'd rather have less tankyness on darius but more mobility. -- Theres no planned cleavers nerfs right now im talking about old nerfs, secondly the only champions i see Affecting this nerf reset and making cleaver melee only is the champions that shouldnt be using it in the first place IMO.

Why not just change Cleaver's shred to %bonus armor? The ADC's abusing it mainly use it to do more damage to squishies as well, but ranged should get a safer tankfighting option (less damage but more survivability).

NodirjonSattarovAug 2, 20171 votes

they can give BC the old Guinsoo treatment where ranged has to stack it 2 times as much to get its effects. this includes jayce because 90% of the time he's in ranged form

SpoofghoulAug 2, 20171 votes

armor went up so pen had to go down to equalize it's effectiveness

in all honesty cleaver should scale with base ad like steraks does

30% base ad.

because it's awkward for anyone not utilizing full ad ratio's

and it's still awkward to use this alongside the sheen items and steraks combined

JackMcSnipeyzAug 2, 20171 votes

How do you decide who should and who shouldnt use black cleaver? just because it's core on most melee champs doesnt mean it's exclusive to them. Should IE be ranged only? Why cant urgot, MF and whoever else is building BC not use it? nothing about it screams "this is a melee item".

And for the love of god, dont touch darius, he's cancerous (heh) enough as it is for any melee champ who cant even get close to farm, he doesnt need mobility unless you wanna change his role from a juggernaut to a hyper carry or something.