Intermediate Bots

khuujacatte·Nov 14, 2016·8 votes·5,871 views

At the risk of getting berated for asking this, I'm genuinely curious.

Have the Intermediate bots gotten some kind of buff recently? A few friends and I used to reliably wipe the floor with them a month or so ago. I mean, we'd finish the match with a win in about 20 minutes. 30 if we're testing out a new champion. Now we're lucky to finish a match in under 40 minutes. They've been displaying some interesting behavior, like turret diving, which I don't ever remember them doing.

I'm not complaining, mind you. I always thought the Intermediate Bots could use a buff, but I haven't been able to find any information on whether this is the case.

Unless they naturally just "get better" if you're in a party? I dunno.

50 Comments

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20168 votes

It is not included in the patch note, but as a hard core bot game player, let me give you some background info.

Bots were tuned as early as the beginning of S5, where they were given the ability to flash and dive, but the behavior is super buggy (like flash back when it's not necessary, flash ult when they can't kill you, etc). The changes were reverted.

With the launch of the doom bots, Riot took a look at the bots AI and reintroduce those behaviors, and added more changes. These changes were NOT documented in patch notes.

Bots can now trade for kills in fights instead of always running when they were losing. The most obvious one being Olaf. They appear to be able to calculate the damage of their kits, as well as estimating the enemy kit.
Bots can now properly peel for low HP teammate's retreat by using CC and engaging in the enemy.
Bots can now properly engage instead of throwing any ability in range. Bots have been able to react to, say another bot maphite's ult. But they used to only cast the spells that are in range. They now properly walk to their full combo range and engage the enemy.
Bots are now much more aggressive when they out numbered the enemy and more inclined to take risk (such as turret dive).

These are definitely QoL changes for bot game. I used to be able to scare off a whole group of bots by damaging them badly. But not any more. There was one game I was playing Jhin, and the 5 enemy bot came to bot lane. I took more than half of their HP with my trap, thinking I got a chance of penta kill, but instead their Leona flash engaged me with whole enemy team throwing their ult. Dead in 1s. Really impressed.

khuujacatteNov 14, 20163 votes

Oh wow. THIS is what I was looking for. I'm glad I'm not going crazy. Thanks so much for this!

OglafNov 14, 20163 votes

They seem just as sad - nay, pitiable - as ever, iMO.

There is of course a vast difference in performance within the ranks of the bots. Brand Bot, for example, is miles better than most other Bots due to it's ability to flawlessly combo you. You might've just encountered a mix of these better bots?

khuujacatteNov 14, 20161 votes

We tend to do co-op vs ai, so I've never played against a bot Bard. That sounds mildly amusing, though. Lol.

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They seem just as sad - nay, pitiable - as ever, iMO.

There is of course a vast difference in performance within the ranks of the bots. Bard Bot, for example, is miles better than most other Bots due to it's ability to flawlessly combo you. You might've just encountered a mix of these better bots?

Cass Annie, Malphite, Leona, Olaf are the better ones(aka wombo combos.).

Yasuo bot is not amazing but I find them combo better than me :/.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o0O Sayaka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UlWItnEe,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-11-14T16:10:10.920+0000)

Cass Annie, Malphite, Leona, Olaf are the better ones(aka wombo combos.).

Yasuo bot is not amazing but I find them combo better than me :/.

Well they are AI. They can combo their abilities quicker than any human possibly could.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 14, 20161 votes

^^^

This is why they are dumb.

To spare us humans. Otherwise they would be in LCS. XD

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well they are AI. They can combo their abilities quicker than any human possibly could.

Faster, but they used to combo them badly, such as Lux didn't throw her E under you, Leona didn't walk to you and E after she ult because it was out of her E range .

They fixed that.

R18Nov 14, 20163 votes

I think they fixed their build paths and masteries. Otherwise, they're just as bad as always![slayer-jinx-wink]

khuujacatteNov 14, 20161 votes

Hm. Suppose we've just gotten worse, then. Ah well. time to get good

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I think they fixed their build paths and masteries. Otherwise, they're just as bad as always![slayer-jinx-wink]

The AI was improved as well after the doom bot. Still not competent enough to match human players, but they now have their moments.

SiytherNov 14, 20161 votes

lol they are better than some bronze i with with

Need Gold 4 TentNov 14, 20161 votes

Actually, I've seen them totally own some new players. Had a bot lane Aatrox go 0/7, and mid go 0/3 by 15 minutes. The mid just didn't know how to use an unfed character coz eventually he snowballed after I got him a few assists (probably also coz I put that mid behind). The Aatrox stayed behind though and for some reason, could never catch many of the assists.

I have lost mid lane as ADC Katarina before, and had to be carried. But the thing is, even with 1 troll player or 1 newbie player, there will be tryhards going for first win or some kind of weird game (kill competition between a Yi and Riven, seen that before) who will inevitably carry the game.

Hawkeye556Nov 14, 20162 votes

Ya, I noticed this too. One thing I noticed is that some of them take Keystone Masteries on Custom games now.

LostFr0stNov 14, 20162 votes

They do have masteries now so...

CowseedNov 15, 20162 votes

I noticed this as well. I got dived as by a renekton bot I think. Scared me silly.

ph1234kNov 14, 20161 votes

I play a ton of Imm bots i customs when practicing new champs. They do not seem any stronger to me. Same as co-op vs ai

khuujacatteNov 14, 20161 votes

We usually do co-op vs ai. Oh well. Time to just get good I suppose. lol

dominusxNov 14, 20161 votes

._. what do you mean lol i tried the new kha'zix in a custom with bots and i just sit outside the fountain pentakilling them everytime they spawn lol if only they should be made harder. or maybe they could bring up a new tier of difficulty

TyrekGoldenspearNov 14, 20161 votes

They have gotten smarter.

Plus they recently got keystones, so there's that.

khuujacatteNov 14, 20161 votes

Huh. Good to know!

Junsui AoiNov 14, 20161 votes

A few months ago yes, they did do this. How long has it been since you played them?

khuujacatteNov 14, 20161 votes

Recently came back from a year long hiatus a couple of months ago. So that's probably all it is.

Junsui AoiNov 14, 20161 votes

Yeah, the wanted to make them more human so they play less safe and actually weigh risk a little. It was a pretty nifty little update :)

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

They will literally stand and let Illaoi 's tentacles kill them once they've been tagged by her E.

Poor, poor bots.

They just don't know how to react to the situation.

khuujacatteNov 14, 20161 votes

I've noticed that. Lol

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They will literally stand and let 's tentacles kill them once they've been tagged by her E.

Poor, poor bots.

They just don't know how to react to the situation.

This is a special ability that needs to be special cased in the AI programming, which most programmers will chose to ignore because it special casing is how to introduce spaghetti.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o0O Sayaka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UlWItnEe,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2016-11-14T16:13:03.576+0000)

This is a special ability that needs to be special cased in the AI programming, which most programmers will chose to ignore because it special casing is how to introduce spaghetti.

Probably wouldn't be too hard to copy the way they react to her Q to those tentacles.

Just takes time they are not willing to spend, I guess.

vs. AI isn't exactly top priority, lol

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Probably wouldn't be too hard to copy the way they react to her Q to those tentacles.

Just takes time they are not willing to spend, I guess.

vs. AI isn't exactly top priority, lol

Not really a easy thing. Q is a skill shot coming from champions, passive is not. Tracking skillshots from champions takes 5 trackers, tracking a skill shot from a "pet" that spawns and despawns? Wow, there you have a perfect place for memory leak if executed badly. (The same reason bots don't track "trap" like abilitys, such as Caitlyn trap, Lux E on the ground etc.)

You may argue, "why not program her tentacle as skillshot from champions?"

Well, her passive is set not to interrupt her "out of combat" status when she's far away from the enemy champion. This is actually special cased for a more common pvp scenario. So like you said, Co-op vs AI is never the priority compared to PvP.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o0O Sayaka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UlWItnEe,comment-id=0006000100000000,timestamp=2016-11-14T16:23:50.002+0000)

Not really a easy thing. Q is a skill shot coming from champions, passive is not. Tracking skillshots from champions takes 5 trackers, tracking a skill shot from a "pet" that spawns and despawns? Wow, there you have a perfect place for memory leak if executed badly. (The same reason bots don't track "trap" like abilitys, such as Caitlyn trap, Lux E on the ground etc.)

You may argue, "why not program her tentacle as skillshot from champions?"

Well, her passive is set not to interrupt her "out of combat" status when she's far away from the enemy champion. This is actually special cased for a more common pvp scenario. So like you said, Co-op vs AI is never the priority compared to PvP.

The way I figured it, they both create an AoE indicator (which are identical in size and shape) before they slam down. The AI is programmed to avoid one of them, but don't react to the other. That shouldn't be too hard, should it? They just need to react to the AoE indicator in the same fashion.

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The way I figured it, they both create an AoE indicator (which are identical in size and shape) before they slam down. The AI is programmed to avoid one of them, but don't react to the other. That shouldn't be too hard, should it? They just need to react to the AoE indicator in the same fashion.

What do you mean by "AOE indicator"?

You mean for the skillshots?

As a programmer myself, I don't think Riot generate an indicator for every single skill shot. They are very likely have a permanent indicator for every enemy champion. When they cast a spell, the indicator got updated and they react to that(which works convenient well with tracking whether an enemy champion is close to them).

Tracking all the skill shots is only feasible if you are running a script on your own computer. It's not a wise idea to if you are the one running the server with thousands of games on it.

ItsOrvalNov 14, 20161 votes

I found them to be the same. I 1v5d intermediate bots in custom games and won in 25 minutes as usual... :/

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I found them to be the same. I 1v5d intermediate bots in custom games and won in 25 minutes as usual... :/

They still can't fight you, but their have their moments now, like that time annie bot flash ulted followed by lux+ashe ult.

I have more fun playing against them. They can take you by surprise if you don't watch out for engage, which they never did before.

MimyNov 14, 20161 votes

I wish they would them harder. Or permanently add doom bots.

I have my new friend in intermediate. He does okay. But he will master them soon enough.

Doom bots is next level and could help new players.

OglafNov 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I wish they would them harder. Or permanently add doom bots.

I have my new friend in intermediate. He does okay. But he will master them soon enough.

Doom bots is next level and could help new players.

Doom Bots is the other end of the extreme though, lol. Not really representative of actual gameplay.

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Doom Bots is the other end of the extreme though, lol. Not really representative of actual gameplay.

I think intermediate bots do a better job at teaching new players how the game works, and thus help them perform better against human players.

Doom bot is challenging, but it needs a different set of skills then playing PvP games.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

Illaoi's tentacles have a brief "rev-up"-time before they hit, during which they display on the ground where they will hit.

http://news.cdn.leagueoflegends.com/public/images/pages/illaoi-reveal/img/illaoi_comic.jpg?v=1

You can see it in the middle panel. The bots will try and dodge this indicator/zone when you use your Q, but not from the tentacles attacking them during her E.

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Illaoi is unique in that her tentacles have a brief "rev-up"-time before they hit, during which they display on the ground where they will hit.

http://news.cdn.leagueoflegends.com/public/images/pages/illaoi-reveal/img/illaoi_comic.jpg?v=1

You can see it in the middle panel.

Bot have never been able to track what's on the ground. They are for human players. Riot's Bot's skillshot dodgint doesn't act that way.

In order for bots to know that, they have to periodically "scan" the ground for objects, compare their location against it. This is a very "expensive" process in computing power's sense, and it's a bad idea to do if you are running a server. For skillshots they only track the latest spell cast by a nearly champion and react to that instead.

Like I mentioned before in the previous post, programmers don't like to track things that spawns and despawns, it's very "expensive" and buggy.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o0O Sayaka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UlWItnEe,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-11-14T16:44:54.369+0000)

Bot have never been able to track what's on the ground. They are for human players. Riot's Bot's skillshot dodgint doesn't act that way.

In order for bots to know that, they have to periodically "scan" the ground for objects, compare their location against it. This is a very "expensive" process in computing power's sense, and it's a bad idea to do if you are running a server. For skillshots they only track the latest spell cast by a nearly champion and react to that instead.

Like I mentioned before in the previous post, programmers don't like to track things that spawns and despawns, it's very "expensive" and buggy.

I'll have to take your word for it. Just seems very weird to me.

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'll have to take your word for it. Just seems very weird to me.

It's not very weird if you know the purpose if you reduce the load of the server. :P Adding juke for a few spells will significantly slow the reaction of the bots and the server.

[slayer-jinx-wink] And learn -programming if you are interested! It helps you understand what the game developers were thinking they make some decisions.

It's like I was never mad when Riot make changes around dynamic queue. I know that thing is impossible to balance.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o0O Sayaka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UlWItnEe,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-14T16:52:26.575+0000)

It's not very weird if you know the purpose if you reduce the load of the server. :P Adding juke for a few spells will significantly slow the reaction of the bots and the server.

[slayer-jinx-wink] And learn -programming if you are interested! It helps you understand what the game developers were thinking they make some decisions.

It's like I was never mad when Riot make changes around dynamic queue. I know that thing is impossible to balance.

I'm actually a first-year Game Design student in collage. :D

We've not even begun to touch AI yet, but my teacher told us it is one of the more complicated things to program.

So yeah - I'll _have _ to take your word for it.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually a first-year Game Design student in collage. :D

We've not even begun to touch AI yet, but my teacher told us it is one of the more complicated things to program.

So yeah - I'll _have _ to take your word for it.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I'm as annoying as I'm in school, keep lecturing people about things [zombie-brand-facepalm]

The decisions are mostly performance concerns, which you will get to it after you learn about memory structure (The stack, the heap, and memory allocation). Put in short, if you want to keep track of every single spell in the game, you need to ask the OS for an extra piece of memory to keep track of it. Each allocation is slow as fuk (context switching), and if you don't return it to the OS after you are done with it, you blow your server.

And "Periodically scans for" is a nightmare that no one ever wants to deal with.

SwiftKitten88Nov 14, 20161 votes

yes, they have,

they will now: ward/ ward hop chain-CC you (perfectly, and way better than any real player will), (seriously if they group as 3 or more.. don't try to 1v3 .. it wont work anymore,) uses summoners defensively and offensively, (aka flash Annie tibber/ flash Chogath ulti) gank (once some of their towers have fallen)

what they still wont do: jungle take neutral objectives (dragon/baron, buffs) CS properly and use gold that way defend a tower at low hp (aka they will back and get under-leveled)

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yes, they have,

they will now: ward/ ward hop chain-CC you (perfectly, and way better than any real player will), (seriously if they group as 3 or more.. don't try to 1v3 .. it wont work anymore,) uses summoners defensively and offensively, (aka flash tibber/ flash ulti) gank (once some of their towers have fallen)

what they still wont do: jungle take neutral objectives (dragon/baron, buffs) CS properly and use gold that way defend a tower at low hp (aka they will back and get under-leveled)

1v3 still works if you bait out their major cc spell, they only engage with those. This is still one of the AI loopholes you can abuse.

SwiftKitten88Nov 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=o0O Sayaka O0o,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UlWItnEe,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2016-11-14T16:46:55.190+0000)

1v3 still works if you bait out their major cc spell, they only engage with those. This is still one of the AI loopholes you can abuse.

well yeah, but my point was that you can't just randomly do it at any time any more.. you need to respect them... at pay attention to their cooldowns

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

well yeah, but my point was that you can't just randomly do it at any time any more.. you need to respect them... at pay attention to their cooldowns

Yeah, I think it's a great change for newer players to understand the opportunity of engaging. And I had only more fun playing vayne.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

Bots do get a constant stream of Gold that would make any Support main pee themselves in envy, so they don't really need CS.

OglafNov 14, 20161 votes

I think they should up their gold flow progressively as the game goes on. Because the players can reach such an item advantage that you just A + click the ground and kill them once the laning phase ends.

o0O Madoka O0oNov 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think they should up their gold flow progressively as the game goes on. Because the players can reach such an item advantage that you just A + click the ground and kill them once the laning phase ends.

I think Riot wants to reduce the frustration newer players have when they finally struggle to gain an advantage in the early game and still struggle later. Bots already have increased gold base on game time, and even more when they are behind.

Riot wants to force newer players to play PvP when they feel like they "beat" the game. Having a major portion of player playing PvE in a PvP game is not healthy.

More over, despite the improvements, bots still make poor late game decisions around the map. We actually have seen a model that bots have more influx of gold. That is the old doom bots. It ended up forcing people to avoid combat and split push in order to win, which is not very fun once you get used to it.

JoeMGNov 15, 20161 votes

I've noticed this too! Been trying to teach my gf and been pretty surprised at some of the kills and combos they pull off . Zyra and Olaf are pretty ridiculous now. We've actually played 2 games where our team lost to intermediate bots. Didn't think it was possible X) . Glad they made these changes though.