[League of legends X dota 2] balance discussion ( not what you think it is )

Auditorè Ezio·May 14, 2017·1 votes·1,807 views

in league when a champion has 52%+ win rate everyone freaks the fuck out.
in dota heros like [Spectre, Omniknight,Centaur Warrunner... ] have 55%+ win rate not in a patch or tow but in 12+ months, but on the other hand a hero named [Io] seems to have a consistant win rate of 33%.

Don't get me wrong dota players still complain, but not nearly as much as league players do and I feel like riot puts down the nerf/buff hammer way too fast. the people that defend "broken" heroes seem to use the same arguments that we use like "bad laning, bad late game, shut him down early...".

I'm not much of a dota player and I maybe making a fool out of myself but can we have a civil conversation about this ?, oh and i know that win rates do not amount to everything but they still count for something

[source] https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=week

11 Comments

Fed by Snu SnuMay 14, 20172 votes

Dota has vastly different power curves and that's all there is to it really.

Spectre has 55% win ratio, but you can also have spectres who 40 minutes in still can't influence the game due to bleeding gold.

Riot has refused to implement such drawbacks and thus has to deal with trying to make scaling as linear as possible. Their choice, so they have to deal with the 50% win ratio demand.

For example in LoL you get almost no power from just surviving the lane, in Dota some roles do.

Dota also has some very real skill cap to power translations, like Invoker, Earth Spirit and others. Not these pseudo-skillful champions like Lee Sin.

Auditorè EzioMay 14, 20171 votes

im not sure i follow but i think you mean

useless early ---> strong late game
strong early ---> useless late

if so then

[pantheon, hecarim, shaco...] are strong early but useless later on.
[veigar, vayne, nasus] are useless early and strong later on.

i don't think i understood you correctly.

Fed by Snu SnuMay 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auditorè Ezio,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UKA0YIip,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T18:24:27.310+0000)

im not sure i follow but i think you mean

useless early ---> strong late game

strong early ---> useless late

if so then

[pantheon, hecarim, shaco...] are strong early but useless later on.

[veigar, vayne, nasus] are useless early and strong later on.

i don't think i understood you correctly.

That's the point, but they work differently in Dota.

In Dota, it is actually possible for someone to never reach late game, even without the game actually ending. In LoL the only way to stop that is destroying the Nexus.

Spectre for example has really strong pick potential for early/mid game as well, but that can be completely denied from her and she can be made to starve, a lot.

And there is no real weak early game in LoL anymore to be honest. Just strong and stronger. Even ADCs are made to be able to duel nowadays. Dota has legitimate weak, like you're a walking turd weak.

GrievousFetusMay 14, 20172 votes

I remember I showed my Diamond elo League friend DotA once.

He picked Sven, ranked Storm Hammer at level 1, walked into lane, cast it, and then he realized that he had no more mana to cast any other spells from then on out.

Auditorè EzioMay 14, 20171 votes

hmm interesting

GrievousFetusMay 14, 20172 votes

I don't want to use DotA as a comparison point specifically because it introduces all kinds of problems especially since there's an obvious rivalrly or dichotomy between it and league, but do want to talk about winrates in regards to balance.

For instance, Darius is described as a pubstomper, but he has a higher winrate in platinum than he does in bronze and silver. Complex champions like Lee Sin and Elise are often described as high skill cap, and yet they have roughly equal winrates across most to all elos. champions like Amumu and Master Yi achieve fairly standardized winrates despite being champions with low mechanical complexity.

If League of Legends is going to have a variety of characters, and those characters are going to vary from high complexity high skill cap champions to low complexity low skill cap champions, then it can't embrace a design philosophy that attempts to force most or all champions to gravitate to a roughly 50% winrate. pubstompers like Amumu should logically have a high low elo winrate and low high elo winrate, while high skill cap champions like Azir or Lee Sin or Aurelion Sol should have the exact opposite. And we don't see that.

Auditorè EzioMay 14, 20171 votes

Damn this makes me feel bad for Riot, if you balance the game around high Elo then every bronze player and their mother will flame you Xd, but if you balance it around low Elo then will get stuff like LS getting brain damage because of the "random" volibear nerfs lol.

D357R0Y3RJun 1, 20182 votes

Dota doesn't care about win rate because they fully balance the game around pro

earth spirit had 30% win rate at one point and kept being nerfed, because his skillcap was beyond anything seen in league as well as the coordination needed to play him could not be found in solo queue. But he was by far the most broken hero in dota

https://youtu.be/ONUFPuVRiOA?t=76

YUSSApr 13, 20181 votes

I think that lol has better counterplay functionality over Dota2. there are some point and click skills in Dota2 that absolutely should be skill shots for how long their range is and the sort of return you get on them. Skywrath mage and Spiritbreaker come to mind.

Ahri has mobility like stormspirit but she can also miss all her skills and do no damage. in LoL you could have 2 players burn cooldowns to take out the carry but the actions of 1 good player bodyblocking and counterplaying the long range picks could foil the operation. In dota2 if Spiritbreaker and storm spirit want your carry dead. Its gonna die and no amount of counterplay is going to solve that.