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Zed, OP or Not So Much? Thoughts?

LittleRenen··2 votes·1,856 views

What is your opinion on Zed as a champion? Zed is one of the only AD Mid Lane Champions in the game, sure you can play other AD champs mid, but none of them really have the escape to put up with the AP mid champs such as Ziggs, Kat, LB, and with her recent buff Ahri. Whenever I play against a good Zed I get absolutely wrecked. It never fails. He has so much burst and range that its not even funny. Playing as Zed I know it takes a while to get really good at him due to his mechanics; however, i still find it a bit unfair how it seems that Zed can tower dive a full HP champ at level three and destroy them with his combo, making it out with barely a scratch. What if Zed got slightly nurfed? I think that slight tweaking to Zed's shadow would do a lot to balance out the mid lane match ups while still giving him great damage and leaving his kit virtually unchanged. Instead of Zed's shadow doing full damage, what if his shadow did reduced damage while Zed himself was still doing full damage? I wouldn't go as far as to say cut the damage in half, but maybe his shadow should do 75% damage rather than the full 100% that Zed is doing. His shadow is just that, its a shadow. Zed isn't to difficult to play against when you know his kit and can work around it, but I still find it unfair that he does the damage of two champions by himself. Looking at the other champs that have shadows / clones it seems rather unfair. Shaco's clone does not proc skills, therefore he does reduced damage. LB's clone can do the animation of an auto attack, but wont do any actual damage and cant proc any skills. Maybe its time to either buff LB's clone a bit to where it can proc her W and do basic attacks, or nurf Zed's shadow so that it doesn't do the damage of two champs.

I don't want to kill Zed's kit, but I still think it is worth taking a look at and considering some options. What do you all think? Does Zed deserve tweaking? Or maybe give other mid lanes some love? Should we just leave Zed alone and let the good Zed players thrive in peace... or nah?

30 Comments

The Paulrus3 votes

Step 1: Remove his AD buff from his kit and increase his energy costs by 5%.
Step 2: Crack a beer and relax. Zed is now healthy.

LittleRenen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Paulrus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U2B8k1KE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-02T18:53:28.878+0000)

Step 1: Remove his AD buff from his kit and increase his energy costs by 5%.
Step 2: Crack a beer and relax. Zed is now healthy.

I don't think we should remove his AD buff, its kinda what helps make Zed the great assassin that he is. Butttt maybe every 20 seconds rather than 10?

Kitten of Evil2 votes

He means the W passive (Zed's bonus attack damage is increased by 5/10/15/20/25%)

Downrun2 votes

I stopped reading at "Zed can tower dive a full HP champion at level three and get out without a scratch." Even the biggest zed haters know this is bullshit lol

U4fyn2vZzW2 votes

He's not OP, it's just everyone else who could compete with him got nerf'd/olaf'd.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

He's not OP, it's just everyone else who could compete with him got nerf'd/olaf'd.

Ouch... bringing the olaf into it, that hurts man. That really hurts.

ComeOnAndSlamJam1 votes

I'm fine with his shadow damage, it's the duration that I think is too much. Zed should have to make decisions quickly. None of this eternal shadow BS we have now.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with his shadow damage, it's the duration that I think is too much. Zed should have to make decisions quickly. None of this eternal shadow BS we have now.

Is the shadow really too long? It's only a 4 second cast and it allows him to juke rather well. Reducing his shadow really reduces his amount of escapability imo.

ComeOnAndSlamJam1 votes

{quoted}

Is the shadow really too long? It's only a 4 second cast and it allows him to juke rather well. Reducing his shadow really reduces his amount of escapability imo.

That's the point.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

That's the point.

So, you want Zed to have virtually no escapability rather than just messing around with his damage and item build? A rather interesting point, that would certainly bring LB back a bit when someone wants to play a champ with high escapes.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

removing the AD buff is actually an interesting idea because it might force him to build items with higher AD, rather than BotRK.

No BotRK means he might be building BT, Hydra, or IE instead, which is arguably a healthier build path for him as a champion. It decreases his ability to take towers due to the lost attack speed and he loses that easy damage nuke from the cutlass/BotRK active during his ult. Losing that active means he may have to use his W to stick and deal damage rather than using it as an escape tool.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

removing the AD buff is actually an interesting idea because it might force him to build items with higher AD, rather than BotRK.

No BotRK means he might be building BT or IE instead, which is arguably a healthier build path for him as a champion. It decreases his ability to take towers due to the lost attack speed and he loses that easy damage nuke from the cutlass/BotRK active during his ult. Losing that active means he may have to use his W to stick and deal damage rather than using it as an escape tool.

Huh. That'ss actually an intriguing point. What if instead of removing his AD buff completely, Riot made his AD buff stack. Such as Veigar's Q, Every time you kill a minion with his shadow's Q the AD slightly increased. It would allow Zed to still scale rather well but it would change his early game rather significantly.

The Paulrus1 votes

{quoted}

Huh. That'ss actually an intriguing point. What if instead of removing his AD buff completely, Riot made his AD buff stack. Such as Veigar's Q, Every time you kill a minion with his shadow's Q the AD slightly increased. It would allow Zed to still scale rather well but it would change his early game rather significantly.

The problem is, thanks to his passive, minion clearing is not really a problem for him. If you made it scale only off of champion kills though, you might have a solid plan there.

LittleRenen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Paulrus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U2B8k1KE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-02T19:06:06.436+0000)

The problem is, thanks to his passive, minion clearing is not really a problem for him. If you made it scale only off of champion kills though, you might have a solid plan there.

Killing a champion with his shadow activated or with his ult would make the scaling more viable than minion kills. It would still change his early game, and let him remain a monster late game if he gets fed.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

I don't think any infinitely scaling abilities are healthy for the game. I would sooner see the damage amp removed entirely and see how he does with an IE or Hydra rush instead.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think any infinitely scaling abilities are healthy for the game. I would sooner see the damage amp removed entirely and see how he does with an IE or Hydra rush instead.

So instead of just reworking Zed a little, rework champs like Veigar and Nasus that can one shot champions late game if they get the right amount of stacks? Seems like a good idea, and it does bring up a point that maybe if they make Zed stacking he should have a cap.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Oh god, that's a frightening idea. Zed already has excellent waveclear, and can spam Q every time it comes off cooldown without any consequence. Why should he get 1 AD (even if it's 0.5 or 0.25 AD) per minion he kills with Q? It would easily surpass his current bonus AD.

The reason it works with Veigar is because it requires mana (so he can't constantly spam it), it has a long cooldown initially (8 seconds at level 1, while Zed's Q is 6 seconds) and because Veigar is so squishy you can easily harass him as he's trying to farm. Veig also has no mobility, so you can shut him down easily early on.

LittleRenen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U2B8k1KE,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2015-02-02T19:13:59.251+0000)

Oh god, that's a frightening idea. Zed already has excellent waveclear, and can spam Q every time it comes off cooldown without any consequence. Why should he get 1 AD (even if it's 0.5 or 0.25 AD) per minion he kills with Q? It would easily surpass his current bonus AD.

The reason it works with Veigar is because it requires mana (so he can't constantly spam it), it has a long cooldown initially (8 seconds at level 1, while Zed's Q is 6 seconds) and because Veigar is so squishy you can easily harass him as he's trying to farm. Veig also has no mobility, so you can shut him down easily early on.

You're right, it is a rather frightening concept. Maybe use champion kill scaling instead? Or increase the CD on his Q so that he cant spam it so much?

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I think the CD is fine, and his kill potential is fine. He just needs to have higher energy costs and less wave-clear potential, probably through a nerf on either his Q/E or passive damage to minions. But about the energy

A full rotation of Shen QWE spells costs 210 energy -- more energy than he has. A full Kennen rotation is between 210 and 175 energy (depends on level). Akali full rotation is between 200 and 160 energy. How about Zed ? At level 3, with one point in each skill, his total cost is 165 energy. At level 18, his total cost is 120 energy. Seems a bit of an outlier, no?

LittleRenen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U2B8k1KE,comment-id=00020000000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-02T19:24:31.911+0000)

I think the CD is fine, and his kill potential is fine. He just needs to have higher energy costs and less wave-clear potential, probably through a nerf on either his Q/E or passive damage to minions. But about the energy

A full rotation of Shen QWE spells costs 210 energy -- more energy than he has. A full Kennen rotation is between 210 and 175 energy (depends on level). Akali full rotation is between 200 and 160 energy. How about Zed ? At level 3, with one point in each skill, his total cost is 165 energy. At level 18, his total cost is 120 energy. Seems a bit of an outlier, no?

I haven't actually looked at the energy rotation but that does seem rather unfair. I love energy scaling champs, but Zed's scaling is just off. Maybe they should make his skills cost more energy, or maybe instead make him regen energy slower than he already does. That would increase the "get in get out" mentality that Zed should have.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Akali's combo doesnt take that much energy... Her w isnt part of her combo and so its basically q and e.

TehNACHO1 votes

As a Master Yi mid "main" who enjoys 1v1ing Zed, and usually winning, I can't say I think he's OP.

Kuroi861 votes

Zed is good, he's strong, but not overpowered. His problem is he can do too many things. Right now his assassinating is quite fine. About all that needs is a bit more tweaking to his split pushing. I think reduced damage to minions is coming for his Shadow Slash soon, perhaps to his Shuriken as well.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

Zed is good, he's strong, but not overpowered. His problem is he can do too many things. Right now his assassinating is quite fine. About all that needs is a bit more tweaking to his split pushing. I think reduced damage to minions is coming for his Shadow Slash soon, perhaps to his Shuriken as well.

Oh thats awesome! Any idea of an approximate time this will be in affect?

Kuroi861 votes

Don't know, the last patch is still new, expect at least a few days to a week or two for Riot to gauge how the nerf hit him. Typically, after a nerf, many people will abandon a champ thinking it's gutted, Zed may survive the band wagoners though. If Riot thinks he needs more tweaks, then expect it in the next two or three weeks, keep an eye on the PBE.

Xtremey1 votes

zed's assassination combo is among the most balanced in the game: easily telegraphed, long cooldown, single target

the only problem is is waveclear, which has become a problem due to mana regen nerfs. buff mana regen and zed's waveclear will be balanced.

LittleRenen1 votes

{quoted}

zed's assassination combo is among the most balanced in the game: easily telegraphed, long cooldown, single target

the only problem is is waveclear, which has become a problem due to mana regen nerfs. buff mana regen and zed's waveclear will be balanced.

or ya know... just nurf zed's wave clear rather than buff everyone.

ømg1 votes

{quoted}

What is your opinion on Zed as a champion? Zed is one of the only AD Mid Lane Champions in the game, sure you can play other AD champs mid, but none of them really have the escape to put up with the AP mid champs such as Ziggs, Kat, LB, and with her recent buff Ahri. Whenever I play against a good Zed I get absolutely wrecked. It never fails. He has so much burst and range that its not even funny. Playing as Zed I know it takes a while to get really good at him due to his mechanics; however, i still find it a bit unfair how Zed can tower dive a full HP champ at level three and destroy them with his combo, making it out with barely a scratch. What if Zed got slightly nurfed? I think that slight tweaking to Zed's shadow would do a lot to balance out the mid lane match ups while still giving him great damage and leaving his kit virtually unchanged. Instead of Zed's shadow doing full damage, what if his shadow did reduced damage while Zed himself was still doing full damage? I wouldn't go as far as to say cut the damage in half, but maybe his shadow should do 75% damage rather than the full 100% that Zed is doing. His shadow is just that, its a shadow. Zed isn't to difficult to play against when you know his kit and can work around it, but I still find it unfair that he does the damage of two champions by himself. Looking at the other champs that have shadows / clones it seems rather unfair. Shaco's clone does not proc skills, therefore he does reduced damage. LB's clone can do the animation of an auto attack, but wont do any actual damage and cant proc any skills. Maybe its time to either buff LB's clone a bit to where it can proc her W and do basic attacks, or nurf Zed's shadow so that it doesn't do the damage of two champs.

I don't want to kill Zed's kit, but I still think it is worth taking a look at and considering some options. What do you all think? Does Zed deserve tweaking? Or maybe give other mid lanes some love? Should we just leave Zed alone and let the good Zed players thrive in peace... or nah?

When I go top vs Challenger Riven mains I also get wrecked too, because I'm not challenger.

If you've ever played mained Zed or played him frequently, you know he's not OP. Winrate was always balanced, he was worse at lower elos and hovered very close to 50% at Diamond and above (so idk why people at bronze/silver/gold/plat are even complaining). People should actually be HOPING to go against low elo Zeds because he's only a threat under someone who's good, aka someone who's not at low elo. That was all before the nerf, I'm sure it has gone down a little (or more than just a little) by now.

The key against resourceless champions is knowing their cooldowns, because that's solely what they rely on. While Zed's Q damage isn't that impressive unless 3 shadows manage to land Q's on you without hitting minions first, it still adds up if you let him poke you constantly in lane. Know that his W cooldown is long, and he has zero escapes without it (generally his ulti isn't a good escape tool). If you can dodge Q when he uses his ulti or exhaust him, his damage is cut drastically (or both). From playing as Zed so frequently I'm very comfortable playing against Zeds at my own elo, which is in the Gold.

Fizz is not Fish1 votes

Zed,again.

Lucky Dark1 votes

Ok I'm going to break it down very simple and concisely because I main Zed.

Zed is what an assassin does. He goes in wrecks up the place then leaves. That being said, I have played against other assassins and mages mid lane who absolutely demolish me. I am by no means an amazing Zed player, as I am currently B2 but was S4 last season. Personally If I see a Leblanc, Azir or Malz mid that know remotely what they're doing and know how Zed works I get super destroyed and am forced to turret hug and call for ganks. It makes me sick that people want to say Zed is OP right now because frankly all the other mid lane AD melee champs got beaten with the nerf stick and nerfing zed is the last thing that needs to happen right now.

Moving along, I love zed and think hes is really fun to play. Although when I see the other mid laner rushing Zhons I know one of two things is going to happen. Either i'm going to roam and help my team out enough that they will be able to survive to late game or my jung is going to gank and feed me or himself to high heavens. The problem with the latter is the fact that zed completely falls off late game. This is just my personal feelings about it so feel free to flame me as needed. But, the fact that zed only really shines level 6 - mid game is his weakness. He is much better off roaming and helping the rest of the team get fed instead of taking the kills himself even though he is an assassin.

The reason he falls off late game is the fact everyone on the enemy team realizes they can just build armor and stay grouped and tada! Zed is no longer a problem. Sure zed can split lanes to high heaven but late game that means your team will be 4v5 while Zed is splitting. This means that sure the enemy team will lose a tower and hopefully an inhib but it also means that the team zed is on will probably lose because he is so squishy at defending the base and can just be flat out overwhelmed. In any late game it's a 4v5 for zeds team as he is just the clean up crew and can't really dive/initiate without being obliterated for fear that the enemy team will just Zhons then roflstomp zed and his team.

Correct me if I am wrong but the fact that zeds current win % is lower than most other popular champs means either A) You have never played as zed and don't know what you're doing or B) You need to get a little better teamwork-wise and overcome him that way. Because I've never seen a zed of any skill level 1v5 a team. So please before you go off on me and call for a zed nerf I implore you to actually play him and realize his REAL weakness (his late game). Too many people are jumping on the Zed needs a nerf band wagon and it hurts to see that because AD melee assassin mids will become non-existent if he is nerfed again.

Finally we arrive here. The fact that AD melee assassins are dying off means that they will have no place in League at all. Can Zed top? Sure but what zed isn't crushed by a gnar, riven or darius top? Do we really want to see Zed as an ADC? That will never be viable in any Division. I've trolled zed as a supp before and although he wasn't bad due to the fact the other teams bot lane was caught off guard he can easily be counter picked there. And lastly, Zed jung is really a joke? Sure his gank ability is off the chart but with the way jungle is now he could be easily counter junged or just out right counter picked at champ select by other real jungles.

So please point out anything you disagree with and arrive at a logical conclusion before you blindly follow the slogan "zed needs to be nerfed".

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