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Buff Garen a little bit....please?

Kolarias··16 votes·3,318 views

So, first off, I'd just like to say that I've been playing Garen Garen ever since I started about a year and a half ago and that he has always been my favorite champion. This probably makes my opinions a bit biased, but I still think I have some valid points.

Anyway, Garen has been somewhat of a weak pick for a long time now (still fun as heck though, don't get me wrong). Though I very much welcomed the massive buff to his passive, it still did not make him anywhere near a viable pick. All it did was buff one of his strengths, not patch up any of his major weaknesses.

Although he has a lot of these weaknesses (insanely bad teamfighting, how easy he is to kite, etc.) I just want to address only one - his underwhelming late-game damage.

First, DON'T buff his early game - seriously, if anything about Garen is OP, it's his early damage. But as he scales into the late game, even if you do catch one of the enemies' carries, Garen either dies getting kited to death or just straight doesn't kill them with his combo, and then dies anyway. And the one way I would get around this was to build critical strike (usually an IE and a Ghostblade) - usually making him do just enough damage to finish one off. And even then, Garen doesn't kill someone as nearly as fast as a Darius Darius does, and he can actually kill other people too.

And then you nerf the Infinity Edge.....why? Garen needs all the crit he can get to damage something, why take it away? 35% and 40% is a big difference for someone who DEPENDS on killing their target.

But I'm going to think that Riot won't reverse the changes, so I ask just one thing -

Give Garen some more damage late. Either buff his crit damage on his E, give him more late base damage, or even give Garen some natural crit chance. Oh, how I would love that.

There's also some other ideas I've read from other places - someone mentioned that building Garen AD would make his spinning useless (as he would do more damage just auto attacking), so Garen should spin faster the more attack speed he has. You could also buff his ultimate, make him less kiteable....both of those would in some way buff his damage.

So.....I'd like to discuss this. Garen current place in the meta, his weaknesses, strong-points, and how to get him in a better place.

TL:DR; Garen needs more late damage. Discuss.

EDIT: I'm not saying any MAJOR changes, just make him a viable damage threat late game (OUTSIDE OF HIS KILL BUTTON). Garen is balanced; but not in the type of way that, well, Zed is. Zed is a good balanced - he has a little bit more strengths than weaknesses, but Garen has a little bit more weaknesses than strengths. His strengths are powerful, but his weaknesses are even bigger.

42 Comments

Killer X 122 votes

Garen is such a monster though.

Stephenizgod2 votes

The only buff to Garen that i think would be acceptable would be to his ult, the range should be increased and its cool down should be decreased early game. Im sick of flashing at someone and not being in range for my Ult even though i literally just hit them with my Q, idk why this keeps happening but it gets really annoying. The cool down is kind of high for how weak an execute it is, both Volibear and Nidalee have better executes mostly because they can use it more often then Garen can (and they scale).

Kolarias4 votes

Of all the buffs they could give Garen, this is the one Garen deserves the most. A 3 minute cooldown on his ult early is insane, given the fact that Darius and Riven have better execute ultimates with shorter cooldowns. As for the range increase, that would also be nice, even though I don't have much of a problem. Most of the time I end up ulting someone, I ult them right before they flash, so it kills them anyway. It's so satisfying.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Yea his cool down is too high, at the time he was made im sure this seemed reasonable but now it is really crappy. The range increase wouldnt be much only slightly slightly longer then it is now, mostly so that someone with only a bit more mov speed cant get out of range in only a few steps.

byr2 votes

are you smoking dope bro?

Focus Teemo2 votes

Something huge i want to point out here.

Garen = Demacian Justice COOLDOWN: 160 / 120 / 80 Rek'Sai = Void Rush COOLDOWN: 150 / 110 / 70


Garen's ult is STILL one of the longest cooldowns in the game. Its actually higher than some global ults such as Rek'Sai's above!
 Fun fact: Maw and Hexdrinker's shields also absorb Garen's entire ultimate's damage, and walking out of vision can cancel the channel on Garen's ult... I had a thread about all this on the old boards to.



Anyway to OP: It may be preaching to the choir but i'm saying it anyway!
As a Garen main i know some people like to build IE. However trust me Garen scales poorly with AD and Crit. Youmuu's is all the crit you need. While also giving you a MS buff, armor pen, CDR, and even some attack speed for tower pushing purposes. You're much better off grabbing a cleaver for more armor pen, health, CDR, and its passive(Your ADC will thank you). BC is also cheaper than IE! Furthermore Garen's judgement(spin2win) only allows for mini-crits, and won't proc as much as normal crits from Garen's autos(which you rarely will get to use against your opponent's). Finally it makes no sense to build an auto attack based item on a caster, unless you were hilariously fed early. Take in mind IE isn't bad but its optimally less effective than cleaver. Also as some people mentioned already Demacian Justice(Garen's ult) does magic damage not true damage, as a result DFG was actually a more solid purchase than an IE on Garen as well(DFGaren is best Garen).

Most optimal build(liquid Quas used a VERY similar build as well) 
![item 3047](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3047.png) ![item 3143](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3143.png) ![item 3071](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3071.png) ![item 3068](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3068.png) ![item 3065](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3065.png) 

![item 3083](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3083.png) over SV is passable.
Depending on what you need, damage  ![item 3142](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3142.png)  or more armor ![item 3075](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3075.png) 

![item 3111](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3111.png)  Against AP laners like Rumble. However these aren't good otherwise, due to the fact Garen already HAS tenacity on his Courage, so its effect doesn't do much for him. Tenacity stacks multiplicatively!

Now obviously i'm inclined to believe Garen needs buffs. However i'm also biased lol.
Oh i don't recommend buffing Garen's damage btw. If they buff his scaling anywhere he can use it later in lane. What they really need to do is give some quality of life buffs. Such as changing his slow removal on Decisive strike to a free QSS active/cleanse. Finally buffing his Ult CDR which was nerfed in Season 2 and was never changed back. Because his kill potential was "toxic".
Kolarias1 votes

I will have to disagree here, I personally think that IE is a powerful item on Garen, as even though Garen is a caster, both of his main damage sources outside of his ultimate can crit (Q and E). Both of those also benefit from the extra 50% crit damage, which can be absolutely huge. I will say, though, it has no more purpose than damage only and only should be bought if "hilariously fed" (which happens a lot when you're playing Garen). IE is good, but only if you can justify buying it. Otherwise, ALWAYS Black Cleaver,

As for his ultimate, people have been crying for years now about its cooldown, and Rito has done nothing :( for a mediocre execute, it sure has a long cooldown.

As for buffing his damage, If they added, well, let's say more crit chance on every level he put into his ultimate (0%/10%/25%) then it could put more damage on his late game without touching his early damage. Otherwise, I have no idea how they'd do it...

PS: Love your username.

Focus Teemo1 votes

{quoted}

I will have to disagree here, I personally think that IE is a powerful item on Garen, as even though Garen is a caster, both of his main damage sources outside of his ultimate can crit (Q and E). Both of those also benefit from the extra 50% crit damage, which can be absolutely huge. I will say, though, it has no more purpose than damage only and only should be bought if "hilariously fed" (which happens a lot when you're playing Garen). IE is good, but only if you can justify buying it. Otherwise, ALWAYS Black Cleaver,

As for his ultimate, people have been crying for years now about its cooldown, and Rito has done nothing :( for a mediocre execute, it sure has a long cooldown.

PS: Love your username.

I know people have been complaining forever about his ult because i was one of them lol. Also Trick2G was feeding with IE on Garen last night hue :3

Anyway your within your right to build IE its just objectively less efficient(not by much). Happy to see people still care about Garen.

Kolarias1 votes

Just a note, I tried your Black Cleaver and Ghostblade build....I actually really like it. Of course, it does not do as much damage as Infinity Edge Garen (which is really fun to build), but I see now how efficient it is. With both item's Armor Pen (plus the 10 I like to take in my runes) i get 40 armor pen AND the armor shred, which can still take out squishes almost as fast and also helps soften up tanks. The 200 health is also really nice, and not to mentions the 10% cooldown reduction.

I think I'll make it my default build, but Infinity Edge Garen is still the carry build (for me).

Tiure1 votes

Karthus item 3070

Leti the Yeti1 votes

shouldnt we buff pantheons' late game too then? its not so great but hey, his early games amazing

Kolarias1 votes

True, true....he doesn't fall off as much as Garen though, and he has decent teamfighting and some actual CC, although I will admit that he has some of the same problems.

Gunpoint1 votes

{quoted}

shouldnt we buff pantheons' late game too then? its not so great but hey, his early games amazing

But hey, Pantheon gets a bullshit point and click stun that is toxic as hell.

Fatfry1 votes

I don't know if I'm just not sure how to lane against garen, but I can never seem to actually win. He has good sustain, one of the few remaining Silences in the game, and a true damage execute (which sucks a ton as a poppy main). He's also tanky as balls naturally with no costs at all, like there isn't even a use for the secondary bar. The issue is tanks, not garen. The meta isn't favoring tanks too much and tanky supports seem to be the best way to do it right now. In the "tank" tier list he is pretty good in my opinion though.

Stephenizgod6 votes

Actually Garen's ult deals Magic Damage not True Damage (unless they just recently changed this), which is why DFGaren was a thing until they removed it. Also its probably one of the more weaker executes in the game, mostly due to its insanely high early game cool down.

Fatfry2 votes

I always thought it was true damage, either way it's someone designed to be a tank with an execute, which is obnoxious in combination with that silence. Garen should have high cds anyways as a resourceles champion

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea but Riven has a long range AoE execute capable of hitting multiple people from really far, that is both better then Garen's and has a shorter cool down, not to mentions the bonuses it gives to her overall damage. Plus her ult scales with her AD, Garens does not scale at all. She also has very high mobility, a knock-up and a stun, plus her crazy strong shield. I think a slight range increase and a cool down decrease seems reasonable enough. Btw Garen is designed to be a Fighter Off-Tank, or a Bruiser, not a pure Tank.

Not calling Riven OP (because i dont think she is honestly) im just comparing 2 different executes that have clearly been balanced with different design philosophies. I just think its funny one is better then the other in nearly every aspect but no one thinks anything of it.

Narasimha1 votes

Do note that Garen has the only anti-tank execute in the game. Everyone's elses is based on % health missing, while Garen's is a flat increase for every health missing. While it might seem weird to use it on a tank, it can be handy when finishing off some champs that refuse to die (Mundo, Volibear, Rammus, etc).

Focus Teemo2 votes

{quoted}

Do note that Garen has the only anti-tank execute in the game. Everyone's elses is based on % health missing, while Garen's is a flat increase for every health missing. While it might seem weird to use it on a tank, it can be handy when finishing off some champs that refuse to die (Mundo, Volibear, Rammus, etc).

Its reduced by MR, and is negated by Maw/Hex as it does magic damage. It also has lower range than the other executes, and you can get the job done better with a Darius ult. Did i mention its channel is cancelled if they walk into a bush and you lose vision... and that its block by item 3156 /item 3155 . All the extra damage when they're at 1hp doesn't exactly make the CD valid either.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I wouldnt say anti-tank though, you can accomplish the same thing with Volibears W, simply because Volibears W scales off his own life as well as their missing life.

I think its pretty well known that Garen's execute is one of the weakest (but hands down one of the coolest) its an old ult ripped from Dota and its outdated.

Narasimha1 votes

Oh don't get wrong, it could definitely use a CD buff, I mean its on the same level as global ultimates. I was just stating that it still has a unique use compared to other executes. Though on the subject of Volibear its more based on the fact that he builds tanky rather than the opponent does.

J3 e c k e t t1 votes

But riven can't go hide under turret for a minute or two and be back to full health. Also she is easier to run away from than garen, and isn't super tanky while still doing as much damage as the adc.

Stephenizgod1 votes

True to the first part, not true to the second part. Riven has really high mobility, Garen has a movement speed steroid that lasts a whole 1.5 seconds at level 1... Riven has her Q at level 1, at level 2 she has her dash and Garen still only has a 1.5 second 35% move speed boost. At level 6 Riven has a long range execute in addition to her Q and Dash, Garen (assuming you are leveling his E like everone else) still has a 1.5 second move speed steroid... So how exactly is that harder to run from? Plus while its true she isnt tanky, she makes up for it by having a knock-up, a stun, a shield, and high damage all of which limits how often you can attack her.

Kolarias2 votes

As for laning against a Garen....yes, it is harder than people think. He's such a straightforward champion, but any good Garen will have memorized his power spikes as well as his enemies power too, and will abuse the heck out of them. And Poppy is a monster late game, as for Garen....well, he has his ult and maybe and armor shred if he built Black Cleaver. Also, his ult is magic damage, not true damage.

As for his "tank" role, I don't really like to to call it that. Garen has only two things he can really give his team - damage and tankiness, and that (in my opinion) makes him more a bruiser. Tanks have more cc, Garen only has a silence. And even when Bruiser top lane back with Renekton was in the meta, Garen was still not seen that much. He was only a worse Renekton - both are monsters in lane, but when they start falling off, Renekton still has his stun and slightly better teamfights.

Adalore1 votes

A possible "reasonable" change could have E multiply the total crit rate of the player's items while spinning. Maybe have the crit multiply scale on the ult rank like how Gnar's power is gated by ult ranks.

Kolarias1 votes

This is a nice idea, yet it could be easily abused. Garens could build only a little bit of crit chance and do insane damage. This could work well, if balanced correctly.

Adalore1 votes

Well it mostly depends on how much crit they want a Garen getting from IE and Ghostblade, those are the two crit items he can really build atm until they add another crit item without attack speed attached.

Done251 votes

All they need to do is remove the -50% crit damage modifier to his E. Then he would have an actual late game.

Especially after they nerfed IE.

Also, Garen is a Fighter. Just like Renekton and Trundle. He has never been, and never will be, a Tank. Just imagine his E an an AoE basic attack than needs 3 seconds to play out. Kind of like a continual Rek'Sai Q. (And damn she got nerfed hard.)

Kolarias2 votes

Amen brother.

Bemapon1 votes

His late game is supposed to be weaker for balance reasons. Instead of being something to kill things I like to play him as a tank/utility toplaner. I get early/mid game kills and then late game is for the actual carries.

The build I use that I found works really well

item 3009 item 3071 item 3068item 3065 item 3083 then either more tank or more damage depending on what I feel is needed.

Kolarias1 votes

I just feel his damage needs a SLIGHT buff later, to not make his lategame AS useless.

As for my build, I have two I usually shift between - item 3111 item 3031 item 3142 item 3068 item 3143 item 3065 (This one is my normal one, it gives Garen a bit more damage late and the ghostblade is good for pushing and to be kited a bit less)

And basically your build - item 3111 item 3071 item 3068 item 3143 item 3065 item 3083 (This is for when we need a tank, I didn't wreck in lane, or I need to give more utility through the armor shred)

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think his damage is fine.

However, I will concede that Garen is not a strong champion in the meta. Your normal meta top laner has strong utility, high sustain / good tank, and good damage. While Garen has high sustain and good tanking capabilities, he lacks the utility and damage to be a successful top laner outside of niche match ups.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

Garen is a bruiser, it's expected that he wrecks house in laning phase and falls off later. You're hilarious saying he's easy to kite. His entire kit gives him great gap closing and escape. How exactly are you building him?

Focus Teemo1 votes

{quoted}

Garen is a bruiser, it's expected that he wrecks house in laning phase and falls off later. You're hilarious saying he's easy to kite. His entire kit gives him great gap closing and escape. How exactly are you building him?

  • Great Gap closing
  • Escape
  • Garen Pick one! Did you buy chance confuse Garen with LeeSin ?
Champion Skin1 votes

The thing with Garen is that while he is durable and tanky with his armor/mr increase and the damage reduction... he still ins't a very good tank if his damage is not relevant or good enough... because if his damage is to low late game he can simply be ignored as all he is left with then is his silence... while good it isn't quite enough and the range on it can be rather limiting

So yeah I believe he possibly should get some more late game damage through more scaling late game only or something like that

AFK Push1 votes

I feel like if you don't build item 3071 and item 3031 then you will do nothing late game, which is why my 5th or last item is almost always item 3031.

A typical Garen build for me would be like: item 3111 item 3071 item 3031 item 3068 item 3065 item 3143

Fuaztin1 votes

I remember two seasons ago I build 4 I.E. garen and I climbed from G5 to G1 and then I had to play other champs to nudge myself to plat. Now that i'm silver it looks like I'll need to play 5 I.E. garen.

rG Thundrag1 votes

I've seen fairly high ranking Garen mains "MarineRevenge" in this case, opt to skip black cleaver now a days or sell it late game and go item 3035 item 3142 and sometimes an item 3031 if they're drastically ahead and win/close out games with a fairly high success rate.

TotalJerk1 votes

What you want to do with Garen lategame is either splitpush constantly, flank often to disrupt their formation, or rush down anyone trying to disengage with your ult.

My ideas for buffs: Increase the duration of his W and his Q. It'll make him a lot harder to kite when he has his extra tenacity and slow immunity for even longer.

Better yet, make his W tenacity stack additively.

TeemoJenkins1 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/202703050 Bronze requests Garen not be buffed.... at least all my opponents do.

Sageace1 votes

I too believe Garen needs a very small buff. I have had a thread out for sometime, asking what others think Garen should get to aid him on the Fields of Justice. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JmdHu4AL-garenteed-to-garen-discussion

OP: The Buff on Garen's passive actually did give Garen much more power late game. It covered a part of Garen's late game weakness. But you are correct in your first EDIT that Garen does seem to have more weaknesses than strengths compared to some other champions. Bruisers are indeed lacking the power they once had, and I hope Riot finds a way to bring some of their lost power back.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

i just think its sad that you can build a hexdrinker to almost completely nullify his ult. they should at least fix that.

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