Support Minion Rule

w3dnesday0··6 votes·6,760 views

I can't seem to find very many posts on the forums regarding the new support items, and if I can they're very old and I cannot find one with an official response. The new support minion rule is ridiculous, to say nothing about the rest of the changes. I understand that the purpose behind the rule is to prevent it from being abused by other laners, but I believe the design of this solution is too simple a fix for a very complex issue.

And before I continue, I will admit that the current state of support items technically solves a major issue, even if it introduces a smaller one. However, I believe that it is possible to sufficiently solve the issue while also avoiding more harm to an already pained role. I believe a more sophisticated approach to the issue would require a combination of the new mechanics along with the old mechanics.

I believe the approach that protects a support's versatility while preventing other laners from picking up support items would be to have the amount of CS supports are allowed to obtain per 5 minutes be reduced for the first 10 minutes of the game, and begin to scale up slowly akin to Gathering Storm. I also believe that the penalty for exceeding this number should be increased drastically during the first 10 minutes of the game, with the penalty softening over the course of the game into nonexistence.

For example: Anti-Poaching Eat the Rich: Farming more than 10 CS per 5 minutes (1.5 out of 10 waves) reduces gold from minions by 90% for the first 10 minutes. The penalty fades over time, gaining access to 10 more CS every 5 minutes until 30 minutes. Math: Once the penalty kicks in, your CS gold is reduced to (90 - (5 * Each 5 minutes exceeding 10)%. This effect ends at 30 minutes.

The reason why I believe this new Anti-Poaching strategy would work is because it still allows supports to take a minor amount of cs in the first 10 minutes without penalty, but prevents other laners from taking the items without hemorrhaging a massive amount of their income. It also allows supports to slowly begin taking more CS later into the game when necessary, but limits laners to a maximum of 40 efficient CS at 15 minutes and 70 efficient CS at 20, when their opponent would likely have more than double their CS at this point (making the 1000 free gold less impactful overall).

Other solutions, such as slowing down the regeneration of charges when an ally is not nearby (or more drastically preventing them from being activated at all) are also worth considering, but the current state of the support item's anti-poaching both fails to punish some laners enough to discourage them from using a support item while also punishing supports too severely for existing as a role.

Thanks for reading this. Hopefully somebody at Riot sees this and is at the very least invigorated to give these new, cool support items the mechanics they deserve. I understand y'all are busy, but I think this is worth some consideration. If you got this far, tell me your thoughts! I would love to hear them!

Sincerely, Sad Support Player w3dnesday0 [sg-soraka]

16 Comments

NF Remilia4 votes

The worst thing is , when you want to execute that cannon minion but your adc uses spells to last hit it : [

TomiMan73 votes

I was more happy when i needed an ally close by to get gold, but i coukd take farm.

w3dnesday01 votes

I agree! I have seen posts on the forums showing how supports actually make less gold now, despite the new items’ supposed ability to generate more gold.

in a hood near u2 votes

I think the current mechanic is fair. It doesn't seem to punish you for picking up a stray CS here or there, but does discourage farming as a support.

w3dnesday01 votes

The problem with the current mechanic is that it denies a support’s ability to farm effectively when the game requires it while also failing to fully punish laners for taking it as well. Even if the new mechanic is fair in some eyes, there is still the issue of laners taking the item.

in a hood near u1 votes

I am unaware of your problem, so I'd appreciate if you elaborated.

Which solo laners aren't punished enough for buying the item?

I think that supports should not even be wanting to farm effectively, let alone trying to. The champions that are picked support are picked in that role because they don't need as much gold or levels to be useful, or they have special synergies or advantages in a 2v2. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the time a carry is better off taking farm than a support.

Your idea allows supports to farm in the late game. Seems good on paper, but usually a game only goes that late if it's low elo or if the carries lacked the gold they needed to end. In which case you're better off freezing waves for the carries or just selling your support item and being the carry.

Even if the carries have all the gold they need, a support's items are so cheap they'll have enough gold to make meaningful decisions anyways if a game goes that long. (Meaningful decisions like choosing between a redemption or locket or ardent censer)

I agree that in cases where your carries suck having a support item becomes a burden, and your idea does fix this issue when games go very long. Only where games go long enough that carries no longer value gold more than supports, this is very rare in my experience.

TomiMan71 votes

I think that supports should not even be wanting to farm effectively, let alone trying to.

Im gonna stop reading right here. When 2 or more ppl dead, and theres waves after waces crashing into towers, or you defend against supers, why punish supports that can waveclear? Also me having 49 farm(including some from enemy jungle) at 37 minutes and having that fucking debuff is just a joke. Stop pretending that supports dont need gold and they are not supposed to do shit with minions on the map. If i can farm cos no1 is around i will. If i can counter joungle cos no1 else does on my team i will. But why the hell punish me when i already upgraded my shit to tier 3? Just plain stupid.

Also also, lets just say everyone has full build but the support. Why not allow them to take farm so they can get their items? U cant even do that since shortly they take some farm they wont get almost any gold.

in a hood near u1 votes

I feel like we got off on the wrong foot, let's read each other's posts before replying.

First of all, mid/late game income has been buffed for supports this preseason. Go back and read patch notes for preseason if you don't believe me, iirc it's 9.23 or 9.24 This season supports have more build options and more gold than last season.

With some exposition out of the way I'll answer your questions.

"Why punish supports who can waveclear?"

Because supports are balanced around the amount of xp and gold they usually get, which is limited. So allowing supports to farm too much throws that balance out the window.

Because players are extremely accustomed to a farming carry and non-farming support in the bot lane, changing this dynamic might cause irritation. I admit irritating players isn't a very strong deterrent, but it's enough when combined with other factors.

Because if a support is farming that's less gold for carries who generally perform better with gold. Slightly troll if a support is taking enough farm that the lowered gold passive kicks in.

How often is every carry unable to farm and the support is unable to freeze and the support has enough wave clear and the enemy team can't kill the support for trying to CS and clearing the wave doesn't fuck your carry's wave management and this happens enough that it becomes an issue? Straight up just hasn't happened to me this season.

"Why cant the support farm after everyone else is full build?"

Because everybody reaching full build is a fantasy.

TomiMan71 votes

First of all, mid/late game income has been buffed for supports this preseason.

So lets get two things clear right away. I only play support bout 99% of the time. The only time you got more income is BEFORE you complete the quest. That means roughly till 15 to 20 minutes depending on your sup item choice and how hard you won lane. After that the measly buff from 2/10 gold to 3/10gold but with removed quest gives you absolutely shit gold. Also by gold value the support items lost about 4-500 gold. So that "free sup item isnt exactly free,and they are about to lose more just so we can have some mana regen. 50healt and 15 AP for 50%. 50hp is 133 gold 15ap is 326gold. 50 regen is 250gold. So thats another nerf right there when 10.1 hits.

Not exactly, if your win condition is to keep 1 carry alive, throwing some extra gold onto the support so they can get locket, or whatever, can win you games why not? Oh wait you can totally not do that, cos he wont get any gold out of the waves. Throwing gold onto a "carry" who is 0/6 and expexting them to scale not always works. Throwing gold onto the support to be able to keep the other carry alive with a locket, can win you games.

Because everybody reaching full build is a fantasy.

Fair, but still, give gold to those who can carry harder. And a fed support who can do anything with its carry is more valuable then an ap carry who only farms but cant teamfight.

in a hood near u1 votes

Did you read the patch notes like I said to? I think if you read it, you'll take back what you said about how supports have less gold.

TomiMan71 votes

Just play a game or two as support in any elo, and experience it for yourself. At this point im talking about from live experience and you well you know from where.

in a hood near u1 votes

Ok I played several support games on my main in diamond and several on this smurf. And my experience is completely opposite yours in both elos. There hasn't been one game where I've farmed too many minions. So shall we continue basing arguments off our experiences or will you read the patch notes?

in a hood near u1 votes

{quoted}

Fair, but still, give gold to those who can carry harder. And a fed support who can do anything with its carry is more valuable then an ap carry who only farms but cant teamfight.

So if you're playing at an elo where this is common I recommend not playing support until you've climbed higher.

But you're definitely wrong, gold is almost always better on carries than on supports. Sure if your carries are idiots it isn't, but are you really trying to base your sentiments for balance on idiots?

TomiMan71 votes

You dont really get what i said do you? Being able to support some1 who is ahead and can 1v5, with more items is infinitely better than throwing gold onto a guy who is supposed to be the other carry(other than the adc/apc) but behind.

in a hood near u1 votes

Ok but if that's the case, stop farming and let the guy who can 1v5 farm. Farm will be better on that guy than on a support.

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