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Katarina E Shunpo Nerf

pz zzang fan92··5 votes·6,465 views

Hello Riot, I've heard a lot about League from many of my friends and that it's a great game to play. However, I've never been so interested in gaming so I just started to give League a try, like a month ago because I wanted to have some fun with friends during winter break. As it turned out, the game was really fun for me to play, especially after playing Katarina. At first, I didn't really enjoy the game because I played Garen and Ashe as 2 of my first champions. Fortunately, Katarina was in the free champion rotation on that week and I got to try her out, it was a huge fun playing her. She's an extremely versatile and aggressive champ, exactly the type of champs I needed. Kat's combos, mechanics and skills were just hard for me to master in general but I've dedicated myself to going Main on her. Day by day, I've regularly practiced using her and tested some new combos or potential outplays Kat can offer. I still remember the day I decided to purchase the Project skin for Kat and then obtained Mastery 7 on her, all within a month. That was the very first time I've used that significant amount of money, effort and time on gaming actually. Since I've devoted myself to Katarina and got used to her pacing and aggressions in the game and everything. And recently, I've heard some rumours of nerfing Kat's Ult (135/75/15) in the early game in patch 7.7, and I'm absolutely fine with that but why nerf her E Shunpo?! The E Shunpo is what makes Katarina Katarina. Adding 4 extra sec to her E Shunpo is A LOT and same for the CDR on dagger, and after trying her out yesterday, it was such a painful experience playing League. It'll never be the same again playing Kat :(( . Her combos and pacing were just messed up. Even when I had to slow down Kat's combos, it's very difficult to do damage to the enemies because they have time to dodge. I played against Anivia and got CCed so hard when I slowed down the pace of Kat, I simply couldn't dodge the CC as quickly as I did prior to the nerf. So, I've been wondering so much about what kinds of standard or criteria that Riot applies to nerf or buff champions. And honestly, I've felt so down after knowing that Kat is nerfed in such a way. I actually want to try other champs out too but without the rapid and aggressive Kat that I first played, I just don't feel like playing League like I used to. Could Riot please reconsider this E nerf on Katarina? I'd be incredibly grateful if you guys could take your time on this matter.

Thank you so much for your attention. Summoner: neikien

33 Comments

BananaSlayerAMO3 votes

Her E cd wasn't even that low before. It's unfortunate that they made it longer since it's her only form of meaningful interaction early game. Talon's Q is way more overbearing and it has a much shorter cd.

ChaddyFantome4 votes

{quoted}

Talon's Q is way more overbearing and has a much shorter cd.

in what universe?

BananaSlayerAMO1 votes

Once Talon Qs onto his target and uses W they lose at least half of their health, which is much more than what Katarina's daggers do.

I don't see how this is debatable.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Once Talon Qs onto his target and uses W they lose at least half of their health,

No they dont Even if it was the case, that would still be fore than just his Q, buddy.

which is much more than what Katarina's daggers do.

no it isn't.

I don't see how this is debatable.

Because you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

BananaSlayerAMO1 votes

It's gonna be one of these, huh.

Once Talon Qs onto his target and uses W they lose at least half of their health,

No they dont Even if it was the case, that would still be fore than just his Q, buddy.

which is much more than what Katarina's daggers do.

no it isn't.

Of course people don't do dmg with just one ability - but my point is his Q sets up for his combo just like Kat's E, but does way more damage and shorter cd.

I don't see how this is debatable.

Because you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Nice to know that even though I never insulted you, you're going to do it to me.

Anyways, there's no point in continuing to talk about Talon on this discussion.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

It's gonna be one of these, huh.

Feeling's mutual.

Of course people don't do dmg with just one ability - but my point is his Q sets up for his combo just like Kat's E, but does way more damage and shorter cd.

Not at all. Talon's Q CLOSES out his Combo.

If talon uses Q to initiate in lane, anyone with half a brain will just side step his second half of W and and he will be left in a bad position.

In contrast , Katarina can just Shunpo back to safety. You are comparing to difference spells purely from a numbers perspective without looking at the rest of the equation.

Katarina can reset her E CD with Daggers, making he "apparent" longer CD much shorter than it actually is, as well as the damage, since she will be using it more.

Unlike Talon, Katarina is also resourceless,

I mean, unless you wanna argue that Yasuo's E is less annoying than Talons with your logic.

Nice to know that even though I never insulted you, you're going to do it to me.

Where have I dont anythign close to throw anything resembling an insulted at you?

Anyways, there's no point in continuing to talk about Talon on this discussion.

More like "I better run with my tail between my legs before I catch this load a BTFO coming my way hu-yuck"

BananaSlayerAMO1 votes

Frankly, the way you think you're so much smarter than others is embarassing. I suppose that you think you've 'won' as if this was some kind of battle and not a discussion?

You've probably heard of the saying "don't argue with idiots", so I hope this time you won't misunderstand why I'm discontinuing this thread.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Frankly, the way you think you're so much smarter than others is embarassing.

..I really don't think Im much "smarter" than anyone at all. I just, as I said, know what i am talkign abotu while you clearly don't. I am more making a spectacle of you here seeig as you seem unable to apply basic logic. It isn't that i see myself as high and mighty at all. It is that i see you as lowly.

I suppose that you think you've 'won' as if this was some kind of battle and not a discussion?

won what? All i feel is that Ive had my time wasted on a self righteous child.

You've probably heard of the saying "don't argue with idiots", so I hope this time you won't misunderstand why I'm discontinuing this thread.

Right I'm so sure. The people that are quickest to bow out "wrong and strong" are always the self righteous ones with nothing intellectually stimulating to provide. the ones that don't like to think critically or be intellectually challenged. Ive seen your type plenty of times before and you wont be the last. it was my hope that I could shed some light on your deplorable behavior in this regard but alas, just a always i suppose it is in vain.

Look. there is nothing wrong with not knowing stuff just dotn go parading as if you do when you don't or get all pissy and childish when someone corrects you. You limit yourself as a human being by behaving that way.

DarthFantasia2 votes

And even if Katarina uses her E, she is gonna use more than just that, buddy. I'm not sure you have any idea what you're talking about.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

ofc she is gonna use more than her E. When did i say she wouldnt?

freeloader252 votes

The problem is that it was way to hard to punish an experienced katarina in the laning phase. its not only about her cd on her shunpo but also the cd on her shunpo considering she is collecting a dagger for the passive reset.

kata just threw q on you, shunpo in, use w, and you have to retreat and get distance to her because you cant trade in her w dagger. at the point you are in a position to trade back, katarinas shunpo is off cd again from the passive reset and she decides if she jumps onto you again to finish you off or just use it to retreat to the minion wave. now her resetted e cd is higher aswell and the enemy gets the chance to trade back when katarina jumps onto him.

the window to trade back was just too short and this is the reason kata was extremely strong in lane. its completely fine that she gets punished by using her shunpo mindless without resetting it which really isnt that hard to do.

btw: anivia is a good champ to deal with kata honestly. she can just threw her stuff close to your daggers and zone you away from them to deny your resets. without the daggers katarina is extremely weak

DarthFantasia1 votes

Kat is really easy to punish in the laning phase, especially before she hits rank 3. You just need to poke her down and have CC. The time between when the player hits W, and when W lands gives you 1 or 2 seconds to do whatever you want. CC her and you have even more time. Experienced Kat players usually use a different combo from the one you mentioned. They E onto the champ, W, Q, get in an AA, have the W dagger land to reset her E, and then E to the set up Q.

freeloader251 votes

why should kata be easily punishable? she is the one who decides if she takes a fight or not and has a safety net for ganks thats a long range blink ability with easy to pull off reset. cc her... well... good luck hitting your skillshots (most midlaners cc is a skillshot) on a good katarina.

youre right with the combo, especially for all ins. mine was aimed at a usual laning situation where kata uses q on the minion wave or the enemy whos standing close to the minion wave and searches for chances to jump in for a trade.

kata already kinda spikes at lvl 2 because she already has all tools neccessary to pull off said trade. she qs, jumps in, takes the dagger and jumps out (with autoattacks when possible ofc) or follows up if she has kill potential... or just stalls the lane out until lvl 3 with is easy with all her safety. sry i dont feel "zone and poke her as long as she is lvl 1" is a valuable counterplay.

from lvl 3 on you had pretty much exactly 2 seconds from her first jump to punish her. but in this time she will be close to you and for pretty much every midlaner its a bad idea to start a trade when kata is close to you (aa, w dagger, another reset) because you will lose it escpecially since kata jumped in to trade for a reason (most likely the reason is that she can take on you in a fight, thats what i mean with "kata decides if she takes a fight or not")

from that moment on it just gets worse. she was near impossible to hit with skillshots with the 2 second cd blink and her massive ms boost if she doesnt mess up her daggers. akali is easily punished, immobile mages with skillshots are easily punished, kata is/was not.

DarthFantasia1 votes

If you are using a midlaner that has poke/range and you are close to Kat's Q or close enough for her to E, then you are playing the matchup wrong.

freeloader252 votes

because every poke midlaner is under his turret the whole laning phase and uses his long range abilities to farm minions the whole time? of course you have to react to the situation and maybe have to decide if you want to go close to the minion wave to not spend your mana for lasthitting. nothing to do with playing a matchup wrong.

ps: kata has 2 jumps with her reset. so you want to tell me its neccessary to stay out of 2 times e range? because you have to do that to stay away from her influence area entirely. but thanks for your well thought, open minded oneliner that contributed nothing but "you play wrong" and didnt react to a single statement of mine.

DarthFantasia1 votes

No. I play Ziggs all the time. If you are a poke mage just spamming abilites to farm early, you are gonna end up having to back every other wave. There is no issue moving in a little closer to AA, because by the time Kat's Q will land you will already be further away. Influence area and area where she is effective are two entirely different things. If a Kat isn't doing any damage with her Q or first passive proc, half of her combo damage is already gone. In all the Kat gameplay I have watched(which is quite a bit), I have never seen a Kat use E twice just to get to a champion in early game. It is always E, W, Q, E, E back or Q, E since the enemy champ is in its radius, etc. In one personal matchup that I played that comes to mind, I was a Ziggs and their player was a Kat. I had absolutely no problems dealing with Kat early game. I wrecked her. Mid game though, she had a ton of burst so it was harder to deal with. Her high burst damage has nothing to do with her E, but with her kits damage itself.

My comment may have been short, but it countered 90% of what you said. On top of that, if I am a midlaner with poke why would I be under my turret? I would push Kat back under hers so it is extremely difficult for her to farm. But thanks for your well thought, open minded comment that contributed nothing but "I don't know how to lane properly against Kat and therefore shes broken".

DarthFantasia1 votes

Oh, and if Kat is jumping on to a dagger it is so obvious you have way more than 2 seconds. Midlaner- "Hmm. Kat is walking a little closer than usual. She is obviously not gonna shunpo to the dagger she just threw."

freeloader251 votes

Yeah as i said, you cant just spam your abilities. But why the hell are you assuming that kata will not try to punish you for taking a creep when she sees you walking up to take a creep? Why is everything you say assuming that kata will wait for you to lasthit to throw her q? it just makes no sense at all.

I wasnt the one talking about influence area: "If you are using a midlaner that has poke/range and you are close to Kat's Q or close enough for her to E, then you are playing the matchup wrong." It was never about how effective she is when reaching you, but, again, you entirely missed the point. She can reach you which you denied in the first place. And again: you have to walk up to farm at some point. kata will not ignore that and throw her q as soon as you want to auto a minion. and you should know how her q dagger lands (tip: it doesnt bounce to your front side!). you have to get out of its zone, but also need to back off to your turret, which isnt easily possible. so you are always at risk of kata going all in whenever you want to farm without skills (her q can contest your aa range). YOU assumed that you never have to go into her q range and now you say im supposed to farm with autoattacks... what?

Wow you had no troubles dealing with kat in one game? If you really think her burst is in no way linked to her e you should read her kit because pretty much her whole kit is build around her e.

And still your post didnt counter anything? She still spikes at lvl 2 and not 3. She is still impossible to hit with skillshots. she is/was still not easily punished.

It was way more than 2 seconds... what?? please read her kit and her downtimes because you start spreading just straight up wrong information. 10 seconds e cd, ~80% reset. thats pretty much exactly 2 seconds e cd and thats exactly the window where you could punish her because either she will all in you after the first jump if she could kill you or retreat to the minion wave if she couldnt. and thats in laning phase before she started maxing e.

But thanks for your well thought, open minded comment that contributed nothing but "I don't know how to lane properly against Kat and therefore shes broken".

Yeah thats why riot finally nerfs her the way im suggesting for 3 months after trying everything else. Thats the reason she was completely broken in higher elo+ for a long period of time. I just dont know how to play the game. why the hell are you trying to shittalk me skillwise when all i did was to criticise that you dont adress anything i said in my prior post at all?

Edit: oh i see.. you never played a ziggs game in ranked and arent playing ranked in general... well i guess kata is super up.. i mean we have normal games where people troll around and most likely first time her as evidence...

Iord Ioss 1 votes

you can dodge the dagger on the ground, its nmot hard at all to predict and if she doesnt hit you she'll lose the trade hard

Iord Ioss 1 votes

Just gonna quickly say this but, one thing is that when u throw a dagger the enemy knows where its gonna land, so they can walk the other way. she loses half her damage that way. If you want to say she has an ult, theres barely a time when you can get the whole thing off, 2.5 seconds? people flash , cc, or simply walk out of it.

Iord Ioss 2 votes

I dont think people understand how bad her laning phase is? Ill make it simple:

  1. shes melee so easily susceptible to poke. which is fine because every champ should have counter play.
  2. cc is her worst nightmare, sure fine.
  3. she has a terrible laning phase because she simply doesnt have the early damage.

Why does her early game have to be unbearable, keep in mind that games are a lot shorter so it takes waay longer to get a power spike and if you dont do well early, then consider yourself useless.

to the people who say "she just q shumpo in and out and your dead" you're deadass wrong. katarina had a cd early for when she can recast shumpo EVEN after landing on a dagger, which means the enemy always an auto or a damage spell in. making it sooo difficult to reliably poke, and for some reason her Q doesnt prioritize enemy champions so Q-ing a minion and trying to hit them only works a third of the time. Riot, shes not seen very often the least you could do is ever so slight dmg early game buffs and Q that prioritizes champions. Thumbs up for the Katarina player who actually understand what im saying.

albertchang5101 votes

To the people who say "she just q shumpo in and out and your dead" they are absolutely correct. Her early game is scary af and she has a power spike at level 2

Handy Sandy 1 votes

tbh anivia kinda stomps kat because she's anivia

Dark Nephthys2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chroma Spell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T2QreFQk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-04-08T02:48:47.964+0000)

tbh anivia kinda stomps kat because she's anivia

I wouldn't say stomps. Anivia might have a minor advantage in that match-up but not really by much. Anivia basically is forced to hold on to her Q a lot because the second she uses it for the minion wave, or if she missed Kat, then Kat can easily jump on Anivia her burst her down. Plus it's really hard for Anivia to keep Katarina in her ultimate because of Shunpo, so basically Anivia would either have to force Kat to use it first or she'll never be able to really use it unless she lands a Q on her...which can be scary since missing it would mean Anivia dies.

And then if those changes for the Midseason comes out and the new item 3102 would actually be an AP item that you might see Kat rushing in some match-ups and I think Anivia might be one of them

God Raijin1 votes

I know the feel of being fairy new and having your favorite champion nerfed. For me, it was Jayce. He used to be able to use his empowered shockblast combo every time his Q was up; In other words, his E was on a much lower cooldown to allow him do so, I was very upset about the nerfs because they were pretty damn big.

But at the end of the day, -Now that I am more experienced at the game, I realize having Jayce's gate on such a low cooldown was broken as shit. Yeah, now he is less safe and gives less utility to his team than before because less movement speed boosts from his E, and he does less damage on his Q's because he can't constantly accelerate them.....but again, it was broken that he was like that to begin with.

Well, Katarina is the same thing, she's basically a goddamn spider monkey with insane mobility and no mana costs, she can often keep chasing people to death with 0 way for them to escape, at the end of the day Katarina is no different than the old Jayce she's got shit that is too good about her and she probably needs nerfs.

My best advise in this game is: Expect that the champion you play WILL be nerfed. PERIOD, it doesn't matter if it actually happens or not, but it will set you up to not be dismayed and disappointed if it does happen.

Whether you agree with me or not that Katarina it too strong or not RIOT apparently thinks she is. And what they think is what goes at the end of the day.

DarthFantasia1 votes

I agree that she is too strong, but nerfing the cooldown on most important part of her kit was just stupid. They could have nerfed her passive damage or something.

Azureee1 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Raijin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T2QreFQk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-08T03:24:48.097+0000)

I know the feel of being fairy new and having your favorite champion nerfed. For me, it was Jayce. He used to be able to use his empowered shockblast combo every time his Q was up; In other words, his E was on a much lower cooldown to allow him do so, I was very upset about the nerfs because they were pretty damn big.

But at the end of the day, -Now that I am more experienced at the game, I realize having Jayce's gate on such a low cooldown was broken as shit. Yeah, now he is less safe and gives less utility to his team than before because less movement speed boosts from his E, and he does less damage on his Q's because he can't constantly accelerate them.....but again, it was broken that he was like that to begin with.

Well, Katarina is the same thing, she's basically a goddamn spider monkey with insane mobility and no mana costs, she can often keep chasing people to death with 0 way for them to escape, at the end of the day Katarina is no different than the old Jayce she's got shit that is too good about her and she probably needs nerfs.

My best advise in this game is: Expect that the champion you play WILL be nerfed. PERIOD, it doesn't matter if it actually happens or not, but it will set you up to not be dismayed and disappointed if it does happen.

Whether you agree with me or not that Katarina it too strong or not RIOT apparently thinks she is. And what they think is what goes at the end of the day.

Feel the exact same about Katarina, people complained about OLD LB who was my main and Kata's rework gave her a lot off the problems old LB had people complain about especially in lane.

LyingOnLine1 votes

Because they wanted to nerf her early laning phase.

pz zzang fan921 votes

I am very much thank you for all of the players who have taken some time to comment on this discussion. The comment section right here has actually helped me a lot with the nerfed Kat.Katarina All the best!

Calabok1 votes

nerf Katarina

YoungReign1 votes

It's the fact that she can barely farm as it is early without getting the crap kicked out of you for trying. By the time you hit 3 and try to trade you have to stand in front a mid laner who has a cc for 2 sec.. Now 2 sec is almost an impossible amount of time to dodge a point plank Ahri heart or Lux stun. They have all the time in the world to set it up. Before they had to read and react to where Kat was, and was moving to, and quickly had to cast it or they would lose the trade. Now they just wait till they can make a reasonable prediction and PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH. Kat has really no fun early game anymore. Get denied. Get out traded. The whole point was if she couldn't roll her lane she was supposed to struggle, not struggle throughout the entire game. I agree that her shunpo out should be nerfed and longer, but catching a dagger and DOING WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO should not have such long repercussions. Against people who know how to pay against kat it was hard enough to get your daggers to fall by them now instead of running from Kat most midlaners just fight and trade with her.Ahri Anivia Annie Lux Ziggs Orianna Fizz Ekko Zyra Leblanc Talon Kassadin Velkoz Ryze

Qush1 votes

for a guys who plays that champion i have no fuking empathy only weak players try climb with this bs champ.... in short kys for plyikng her and i dont understand why in League of Legends exists a champ like katarina it's stupid its killing the game.

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