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I'm a little conflicted on the changes this patch

The3rdImpact··11 votes·1,833 views
Patch 5.13 notes

I'm a little conflicted on how I feel this patch, because there are a few huge changes coming, and I'm not sure how I can adapt with my main and my playstyle.

I've mained Singed since late season 3. That season I rose up to gold for the first time, and I've loved playing SInged ever since. I usually run a tear into rylai's build, and enjoy staying just out of reach from my enemy, and baiting them into trying to kill me. This patch changes the items that I usually run on him, and affects the core mechanics, that make my playstyle possible.

Let's talk about the slow stacking change first: "Slows no longer stack. Instead, in the case of overlapping slows, the strongest slow takes precedent and all other slows have no effect." This means now when I W and slow with my poison trail I will lose out on the slow I would have pre-patch (Keep in mind my build with rylai's). As well if I had flipped my opponent, (losing the stack slow with e+q), and therefore will make it harder for me to duel my opponents, because they will simply less slow than before. Making trading more punishing due to their ability to trade back.

This already makes my playstyle on Singed harder, which is bad, but they also changed Rylai's, making it impossible. I'm talking about the change to Rylai's build path. Where they removed blasting rod in the favor of Needlessly Large Rod. Not only is it more expensive to fully build, delaying Singed's power spike, but also makes it harder to do damage early game, due to the high build costs. This hurts Singed's early game, very hard.

The only solace is the changes to Rod of Ages. This is because the item is now more viable on Singed than ever, due to the increased mana and AP stats and how quickly you can afford it. And even though RoA is a popular build on SInged, I never enjoyed using it as much as Rylai's because I enjoy the slow I get against auto-attack reliant champions.

Needless to say I will need to adapt my build, but I still get a bit sad knowing that I will never be able to play Singed the way I want to, at least to the same effect, as I could before. I suppose this is change, and change is good, but I'll miss the patches before this and I was wondering if there are any other champions that are getting gimped due to the changes this patch. I would appreciate your thought in the comments below, and I was hoping we could spark some discussion here, seeing this is a pretty big patch, on how changes are concerned.

22 Comments

Hoi Im Temmo8 votes

I agree with you completely - but more than that, I am so happy to see someone voice displeasure with changes from riot without spouting hate and rage and demanding someone be fired. Great job on expressing yourself.

The3rdImpact2 votes

Thank you I appreciate the feedback :)

I knew I couldn't be the only one feeling this way

Jofeyy4 votes

But that laugh tho

The3rdImpact1 votes

Heh... saves me from CTRL+4 ing myself :)

MĄW2 votes

Well...... I must say..... this is one mighty fine Rengar thread

SaltyKracka2 votes

Brand BURN!!

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Nami :P

Bðbo2 votes

item 3040 item 3268 item 3027 item 3065 item 3075 item 3116 Singed summoner 6 summoner 12

InSingedWeTrust2 votes

{quoted}

item 3040 item 3268 item 3027 item 3065 item 3075 item 3116 Singed summoner 6 summoner 12

Did you...just craft a Singed build without including Liandry's, especially after it's getting buffed?!

Lauricella31 votes

{quoted}

item 3040 item 3268 item 3027 item 3065 item 3075 item 3116 Singed summoner 6 summoner 12

I think item 3110 is better but yeah thats the general singed build

FastAsHeck2 votes

first of all congrats for making a post that is not full of hate. second, rylais is getting big buffs but unfortunately singed's poison will only apply 20% because it is dot. but hey he now laughs which is nice

Downfall2 votes

Tru but ur singed, removal of slow stacking could be very good for you

The3rdImpact1 votes

Yeah, I originally thought about that before I posted, however I couldn't think of many instances where enemies stacked slows on me as singed. Then I considered how much I incorporate slows in my playstyle and I thought I was screwed.

Ideality1 votes

This is a big singed nerf, possible buff in the near future? I really liked the tenacity change to multiplicative stacking instead of additive stacking, hopefully something like that if you intend to nerf slows?Velkoz

Darkwind1 votes

You seem to misunderstand how tenacity and slow stacking work, both currently and historically.

Prior to patch 5.13, slows stack 35% effectiveness. That is, the strongest slow is fully applied, and any further slows are only 35% effective. Note that only 1 item can slow a champion at a time. So if you add a hextech gunblade slow to a rylai slow, they never stacked together at all.

Tenacity has always stacked multiplicatively. Otherwise, there would have been several ways to get over 100% tenacity:

Irelia passive (40%) + Tenacious (pre-5.12, 15%) + merc treads (35%) + elixir of iron (25%) = 115%

Irelia passive (40%)+ Cleanse tenacity (65% for 3 secs after use)=105%

Mundo W (40%)+... above^

How it actually works has always been:

Irelia Passive (40%) + Tenacious (15%) + merc treads (35%) + elixir of iron (25%) = 1-(.6x.85x.65x.75)=75.2% tenacity

Irelia passive (40%)+ Cleanse tenacity (65% for 3 secs after use)= 1-(.6*.35)=79% tenacity

ect, ect

However, there was briefly a glitch where Elixir of Iron in particular would stack additively with other tenacity- meaning all other tenacity till stacked multiplicatively, but the iron pot would add a flat 25% tenacity on top. So you could, actually, reach:

Irelia passive (40%) + tenacious (15%) + merc treads (35%) + cleanse tenacity (65%) + elixir of iron (25%)= 1-(.6*.85*.65*.35)+.25=113.4% tenacity

For obvious reasons, Rito fixed this....

Lynxonyx1 votes

Well, it may slightly effect slows, however I feel the patch is a pretty major buff for Singed overall. Which is most welcome imo. I also main Singed, but have been going the CinderHulk route with him for the last month or so, which is more fun, but a higher risk/reward build. It also ignores building RoA.

With that said, the buffs to Liandry's and Seraphs to go along with his MR increase, are significant, and even with the buffs to RoA, I'd still say it is underwhelming when compared to many of his other build options (will require a 50+ minute game to utilize its full potential - cause even rushing it you will get it around the 12-15 minute mark). Many of the Singed mains in higher ELO tend to call RoA a "newbie trap" ... Not me, but they do.

You will figure out what build best suits you, and rock it, I'm sure. Best of luck fellow Singed .

PS - Sometimes I like to build item 3136 and then item 3116. This will cure your power spike issue, but not the slow issue.

Darkwind1 votes

Your whole point regarding the stacking of rylai slow with mega adhesive slow is pretty much a moot point. This is because of the minimum movement speed caps, realistic enemy champion move speeds, the already weak slow stacking mechanic, and the addition of a scaling to the snare duration on E+W.

So, let's assume an enemy champion has a base move speed of 350 (that's high), tier 2 boots, and has a 10% movespeed buff from... something. That would put their raw movespeed at 434.5. On patch 5.12, a level 1 singed W combined with an AoE slow from Rylai (Q) would modify that by (.65)x(1-[.35x.35]), as slows only actually stacked at 35% effectiveness for any slow past the first, regardless of what Riot said in the notes. This would result in a move speed of 247. On patch 5.13, a level 1 Singed W would not combine with the Rylai slow at all, so the 434.5 move speed would only be modified by .65, resulting in 282 move speed. Note that no soft caps would apply in either case. An enemy would require approximately .08 seconds less to cross your Mega Adhesive on patch 5.13 than they would on patch 5.12, but this time would be negated after approximately 1.4 seconds of chasing you after leaving the Mega Adhesive. Note that this difference only exists if you have a Rylai's, your W is not yet maxed, and your opponent has a reasonably high move speed. Lower enemy move speeds, greater points in W, or a lack of Rylai's reduce or remove this difference entirely.

If we take a look at the 15% slow plus the 35% Mega Adhesive slow on patch 5.12 vs patch 5.13, the difference is appreciably less. Again, 434.5x(.65)x(1-[.35x.15]) would result in a final move speed of 268, with the same move speed of 282 on patch 5.13. This difference would be relevant for the time it took the enemy to get off of the Mega Adhesive, a maximum of 175 units if they run across the whole thing. That means that the time your opponent saves running across your Mega Adhesive on patch 5.13 vs 5.12 is .03 seconds. This would be negated by the 5% stronger Rylai slow on patch 5.13 after less than .75 seconds of chasing you after getting off the Mega Adhesive.

If we assume a higher level in your W, things get even better for patch 5.13. With a max rank W, an E+W will result in a snare for the full 2 seconds of the duration of a 35% slow on patch 5.12, meaning that we don't have to adjust for that at all. Instead, it will take an enemy a full 1 second longer to cross your Mega Adhesive if you Fling them onto it on patch 5.13 than on patch 5.12.

If we assume you aren't Flinging them onto it, then we'll compare a (.25)x(1-[.15x.35]) modifier on patch 5.12 to a (.25) modifier on patch 5.13. These result in raw move speeds of 103 and 109, respectively. However, there is a raw move speed of cap when move speed falls below 220. The modifier to these raw speeds is (raw speedx.5)+110, resulting in final move speeds of 162 and 164, for patch 5.12 and patch 5.13 respectively. Therefore, on patch 5.12, enemies slows by Rylai Q and your maxed Mega Adhesive will cross your Mega Adhesive .02 seconds faster on patch 5.13 than on patch 5.12. This would be negated by the 5% stronger Rylai slow on patch 5.13 after chasing your for approximately .5 seconds after getting off the Mega Adhesive.

The only time this isn't true is if the enemy is exceptionally fast- something like a Rammus or Quinn. In either case, you're going to get caught no matter how slows stack.

TL;DR: Singed's ability to kite is stronger on patch 5.13 than it is on patch 5.12 under almost all circumstances.

rinsujo1 votes

Thank you for the math, since I'm interested in that sort of thing, but also far too lazy to do it myself.

Also, OP should note that even though the recipe did change for rylais, with the NLR cost and combine cost both dropped significantly, there's only 100 gold difference overall for the rylais. That's one wave. You'll live. You talk about delaying his power spike like it's going to be 5 or 10 minutes. It wont.

Hell, as a jungle Diana player, I'm excited for the AP changes - I usually back at level 6 with about 1250 gold and a fresh blue - now instead of trying to push for another 150 to finish runeglaive, or delaying runeglaive for seekers, I can flat buy an NLR and start ganking like a friggin demon. The Moon also rises, mothafucka.

EDIT - proofreading OP

gaby1best1 votes

Still, he got a massive buff on his E. MR also buffed.

The3rdImpact2 votes

He did get a really nice set of buffs this patch, the mr scaling was waaaaay overdue considering he is a flipping tank. (See what I did there? :P) However this thread is more me complaining I have to change my build due to item and game changes.

gaby1best1 votes

I was talking about the laugh mate.

NinjaToad991 votes

On the bright side, now you don't have to spam Crtl + 4 when you fling anymore, now the game does it for you!

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