Juggernaughts

ChaosMauler·Sep 24, 2015·1 votes·361 views

Hello I just need some help understanding the interesting new balance in the game. Tanks now only need to build the new tank items and it doesn't matter how well they do in game they end up face rolling an entire team. How is having a champion that is almost unkillable yet deals a ton of damage balanced? Tanks who build defensively shouldn't be dealing much damage according to what we know as balance. There's almost no point to most assassins anymore (at least in my opinion) when the person needing to be focused cant be burst down. Right now if a team builds 3 tanks and 2 damage dealers its almost an easy win every time. its so hard to fight against a team when it doesnt matter who you focus everyone is dealing damage. Maybe i just need to understand a few new tactics to better understand but if someone from riot could respond i would be very grateful.

6 Comments

SquidsmastahSep 24, 20152 votes

I do agree that champions with tank-like health and assassin-like damage is WAY too unbalanced. I once saw a video of a Darius doing a 1v5 in the enemy team's base, without any of the enemy team's inhibitor turrets down. Even when they respawned, Darius would just murder them again. Sure, this took a lot of skill, but it practically forced the enemy team to surrender because Dar was abusing them so much. I think Darius is the one that needs to be toned back first. AT the time of this comment he has an 88% ban rate (which, at least, is lower than first juggernaut release Darius). the way that these juggernauts should work is you deal damage, or you tank. There shouldn't be a "both" option.

Critmaster GarenSep 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I do agree that champions with tank-like health and assassin-like damage is WAY too unbalanced. I once saw a video of a Darius doing a 1v5 in the enemy team's base, without any of the enemy team's inhibitor turrets down. Even when they respawned, Darius would just murder them again. Sure, this took a lot of skill, but it practically forced the enemy team to surrender because Dar was abusing them so much. I think Darius is the one that needs to be toned back first. AT the time of this comment he has an 88% ban rate (which, at least, is lower than first juggernaut release Darius). the way that these juggernauts should work is you deal damage, or you tank. There shouldn't be a "both" option.

since they dont have anything else than damage and tankyness, they would either be useless chunks of hp that do nothing, or slow moving squishies who would blow up before they could get anywhere.

theyre not like tanks who have defense and are loaded with cc utility and strong gap closers, or like assassins and melee adc who are squishy but have utility and high mobility coupled with a lot of damage to work with.

no, theyre in the right spot at the moment. ban rate is irrelevant. their playrate is still high enough to pinpoint their actual winrate pretty accurately. and theyre just at 52% right now.

theyre not unbeatable and not op. people just dont learn how to deal with them, because they keep banning them. plus those champions are naturally stronger in the lower half of the ladder. and half the player base is bronze and silver.

disregardableSep 24, 20151 votes

They're easily kited. Not EVERY champion can kite them, in fact very few can, but their counterpicks are effective enough to warrant their existence. That same reasoning is why Vayne doesn't get nerfed, because Rengar can still 100-0 her no matter what.

Critmaster GarenSep 24, 20151 votes

the first mistake you made is to assume that theyre tanks.

tanks in this game not only have to be beefy, but they have to be able to initiate a fight, disrupt their enemy with cc, and peel for their allies.

leona is a tank, nautilus is a tank, malphite or sion are tanks. they charge into the middle of your team, and cc one or multiple targets, have aoe cc abilities and can peel your own front liners off their squishies.

the 4 reworked champions are supposed to be carries. but instead of being mobile like fiora, or yasuo, having utility, cc or as much damage as them, theyre beefy and easily kitable. you do now want to fight them head on for extended durations with most champions. you need to use other tools to keep them at a distance, or go in and out of combat wit them.

Lost RSep 24, 20151 votes

There are three types of damage dealers: Burst, sustained, and attrition, and this sort of works in a rock, paper scissors fashion (except not really, but just roll with it).

Burst damage, AKA assassins, throw all their damage right up front and they're expected to get out before anyone can retaliate. They're fragile, so this is necessary. This works best against glass cannons and general squishies, but it doesn't work so well against tanks because of their high defense stats.

Sustained damage dealers are brawlers and ADCs. They can't blow up a champion in two seconds (under NORMAL circumstances) nor do they usually have a kit that allows them to hold someone in place to deal out all their damage, but they don't have as heavy a dropoff in damage output over a longer fight, which doesn't make them completely worthless once they've fired off all their skills. They can commit to a fight better than assassins, but they're not as durable as tanks.

Attrition can't really be qualified as damage. This is the tank territory, and as the name would imply, they deal their damage through a war of attrition; literally lasting longer than the other guy, and generally being able to hold them down long enough for you to do it. This is why it feels like tanks are more powerful than assassins; they're the antithesis to assassins. They have the defense to outlast assassins in their burst, and can hold them down long enough to retaliate, which the assassin isn't able to withstand. Sustained damage dealers, however, are able to deal consistent amounts of damage and can fare much better against tanks than assassins; if you can't kill them, you can at least deter them with the threat of being able to punch through their defenses.

redniwediSSep 24, 20151 votes

Tanks who build defensively don't do damage. Have you ever seen the damage output of a full tank Amumu? Sure he can 1v1 a squishy target if they can't peel, have terrible positioning, and don't have any resistance pen, but literally anyone can do that.

Bruisers, on the other hand, are Fighters who rely more on base damages, base AD scaling, and raw bulk to get their job done. They can be kited, and typically have low CC and no dashes. They usually have a secondary attribute of Tank, and they often build many tank items, however don't let this fool you. They are Fighters.

The way I see it there are three ways to beat a Bruiser:

Put another Bruiser against them.
Put a duelist against them.
Teamwork.

Bruisers are naturally strong against other Bruisers. Sure you could put a ranged champion against them and just kite for days, but people who main Bruisers know how to not fall behind in a matchup like that. If they come out even they can outscale in the mid game. The double Bruiser lane, with the way they snowball, is a sure fire way to keep an enemy Bruiser behind with just a few ganks.

Duelists, however, are fighters who excel in 1v1 situations. Many can handle multiple opponents, especially once they start snowballing, but they are perfect for stomping on a Bruiser's early game hopes. They are fighters who rely on additional mechanics to stay alive, be it CC, dodges/dashes, or simply burst damage, rather than the Bruisers and their bulk. Because of this getting a Duelist ahead can not only completely shut down the Bruiser in question, but it can end up snowballing the game. Riven is a classic example of this.

The last option, of course, is the best fit for any given situation. You can counterpick all day, but eventually there will be a situation where you have to face the enemy Bruiser without your counterpick ally around. Each Bruiser has a different set of strengths and weaknesses, so recognizing when a particular strategy will be appropriate is your main concern. Typically focus fire with CC is the best way to flat out remove a Bruiser from a fight, however you want to do this before a team fight happens. Ward well and try to catch them off guard, then use your number advantage to push down objectives.

A few key points to remember:

If you can't 1v1 a Bruiser don't fight until an ally is there to assist, otherwise you'll just file in one at a time giving kills.
The main power a Bruiser has in a team fight is their threat level. They want you to focus them instead of their allies, and if you ignore them they can kill you anyway. Don't fight on their terms, either enter an anti-siege position or split your pressure around the map until you can catch an enemy or two out. Bruisers make you choose who to focus, make sure you choose on your own terms.
Bruisers scale well with experience. Just because you've zoned one from CS for a while doesn't mean they are behind. They will punish you for mistakes regardless of your gold advantage, so make sure you treat them with respect. The best way to lose to anyone is by getting cocky, and this goes doubly for Bruisers.