Shaco Rework revert

50 shades of gre·Jun 22, 2017·6 votes·673 views

As a former shaco main, has it ever crossed anyone's mind that shaco should be reverted back to the old shaco before the assassins update. Personally I would love that and I bet others would love that too. I miss old shaco :(

11 Comments

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20172 votes

At least he was semi viable back then, with a bit of build diversity.

Now he is just a glorified auto attacker reliant upon killstealing with shiv.

50 shades of greJun 22, 20172 votes

He took way more skill back then :(

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20172 votes

The problem is simple.

The Q/Backstab combo just doesn't do enough damage early/mid game.

It's literally an auto attack. You are sacrificing 2 skills for an auto attack.

That same auto attack is outdamaged by every single AA modifier in the game, and by the time that 30% bonus is big enough to be noticeable, you have crit in your build making your passive useless.

He gives up two major abilities worth of damage, and Riot need to address that.

"At what point does this 130% auto break even with other damaging abilities."

They want his Q to be purely mobility? Cool. Give him the damage elsewhere then.

If the whole purpose of Q is to line up a good backstab, then why is the reward for said backstab so tiny? Warrior puts you at about 130AD. so backstab is doing 170 damage before armor.
You are giving up two skills for 170 damage? That hardly seems fair.

50 shades of greJun 22, 20171 votes

To be honest I'd rather have his crit be -50 like his old Q. Also he now he doesn't take much to master his mechanics. Before the update you can honestly tell between a good shaco and a shaco main, but now you honestly can't tell the difference. For example a good Yasuo and a main of Yasuo.
xD

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20171 votes

The problem isn't that simple.

Riot hates champions who can burst you from innate invisibility. I say innate invisibility because they apparently have no problem with the other 90% of champions who can be sitting in a bush (and thereby be invisible) and jump out and burst you.

The problem is how his invisibility has very little innate counterplay to it. Please note that 'warding' is not innate but an external action. It's something your enemies do, not something inherent to the way his kit works. (Another example would be how skillshots have a travel time and vectors - they can miss. This is inherent counterplay, not external counterplay like buying a defensive item would be.)

Shaco's Q invisibility has its puff of smoke and evil laugh upon disappearing, but Riot refused to make these more noticeable during his 'update'. If they had become more noticeable, ganking would've been more of a challenge because opponents who are aware and alert are given something to work with - his Q would have innate counterplay. Instead of giving his Q innate counterplay, they left it with very little counterplay but nerfed the shit out of it. So rather than Shaco's ganks requiring opponents to be paying attention and have awareness, they can rest easy knowing Shaco can't really gank all that well until it's way past laning phase.

Shaco's W also causes him to suffer. They have very little innate counterplay: your enemies either use a specific anti-ward, anti-trap item to hard-counter them, or they stumble into hard CC. Boxes, like Deceive, don't really telegraph themselves. If they did, such as playing audible music SFX in a large radius around them, then Shaco could afford to be more powerful.

TL;DR: Shaco's Q and W needs tell-tale signs and clues so that enemies can outplay them - in return, Shaco can afford to be an assassin and deal damage.

PS. Not surprisingly, most Shaco mains don't want Shaco's Q's tell-tale signs to be played up because 'tehn how wud i gank teh enemy? dey can c me comin'. Maybe they would, but I think the effect of creating paranoia would be just as powerful. You'd give up a little bit of info about your relative position (OK, I just heard Shaco's laugh, he's somewhere around Mid) but the ambiguity of his position still creates a lot of tension and fear.

Unreformed ShacoJun 23, 20171 votes

Are you kidding? The puff of orange smoke is there and can be seen through fog. His W can also be seen and heard through fog of war. "Jack in the Box Noxious Trap stealths, arms, and becomes untargetable after 2 seconds, creating a puff of smoke and a distinct sound that can be detected through fog of war. Jack in the Box is vulnerable to trap-disabling effects at all times."

If you are worried about Shaco, buy a red sweeper. You see the puff, you know where he is. His box does nothing.

Shaco mains have no problem facing an enemy Shaco, because his kit is only overwhelming at the start, once you know his tricks.. he has nothing. If people actually learned about the champ, he would be needing mass compensation buffs.

As for the laugh nearby, that's a brilliant idea. The same thing happens with Nocturne ,Rengar and LeBlanc Ultimates ( I get that they are ultimates). It adds a new level of deception to his kit, which fits him perfectly. His kit is supposed to say "You don't know where I will strike" but it actually says "I'm going to set off fireworks when I go invisible."

I would gladly trade the new 4.5 seconds of stealth for the old 3, as long as they gave us the damage back.

PS: Kha'Zix has more burst from stealth without the marker through fog, but that's okay.

DrugsForRobotsJun 23, 20171 votes

I don't disagree with you, but with Riot so big on 'counterplay' and delayed and telegraphed effects, it seems strange to me that they wouldn't apply this kind of design to Shaco and the other champions with innate invis-abilities. Yes, Shaco has his puff of smoke (and that's a good thing) but his evil laugh is barely audible. Yes, his boxes have a 2s window of vulnerability and make a distinct sound and particles upon placement (this is also a good thing) but beyond that, the only ways to counter them are: 1) use a specific anti-trap item to hard-counter it; 2) get a tank to take the lead and stumble into them. Regardless, my point still stands that if they had more innate counterplay, then we wouldn't need Sweeper to counter them at all. And lets be honest, we all know that Sweeper's trap detection is for Shaco and Teemo. Because wouldn't you know it, stumbling into invisible CC / DoT doesn't allow for much skill expression via outplays. It's almost like it was designed during a time when counterplay wasn't big on Riot's priorities.....

VęrtęxJun 22, 20171 votes

"Shaco could use a lot of love, enough that we can’t solve all of his problems as part of a class update. However, that’s no reason to ignore The Demon Jester. Shaco has always been known for his niche combat tricks, but we want to make those feel more relevant in teamfights and skirmishes. With that being said, his early game ganks need to be toned down. Shaco players should feel good about tricking their opponents, rather than merely appearing out of nowhere at level 3 and ruining their lane." Is that what they did? What's so different about him now?

50 shades of greJun 22, 20171 votes

You do have a point with that argument. But the nerfs make no sense on shaco for example his Q mainly because of sunfire triforce shaco. I get how his q needed to be toned down a bit but still. Shaco is a anagram for "Chaos" which still should hold in his name. xD

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20172 votes

His "tricks" are more worthless now than they were pre nerf.

His clone damage was lowered and his boxes still get cleaved out by literally everything.

MyTwinJul 20, 20171 votes

Want small Shaco buffs that will make him a lot better? 1st; Buff his passive for both ap scaling and that 130% minicrit (Or just increase dmg multiplyer on Q) 2nd; Buff his Q to multiply passive dmg by lets say (1.5; 1.65; 1.8; 1.95; 2.1) 3rd; Make his W so it does not get activated by vision from oracle, sweeping lens and control ward. 4th; Bring back old E's % of missing health dmg, cause it was so good tool for jungling and securing objectives later on in game, new one has lower dmg overall and when it comes to securing objectives I think 1k+ dmg on old E was better than pathetic 300 on new one.

And even if all together sounds op it is nothing but few small buffs that would make shaco viable again and maybe in meta for week or two till people learn how to play against it. Cause what Shaco has become is just pure shame, how is it fair for person with over 2.5k games on shaco to go 10,0 start and lose mid/late game. And no it wasn't always like this, before rework my favourite time to be shaco was mid and late game cause then I could fight and deal dmg and heal back up a bit and take few punches. Now if I go assasin I die cause you are byfar worst assasin in game and burst is so low it can't even kill adc. If you go ap shaco all ennemy has to do is spend 75 gold to get control ward which it will use when he plans to fight or later on go with FREE oracle alternation and ruin main part of your kit which is your W. Tank Shaco is sadly best of all right now and I'm not claiming it is useful as tank I just think it can survive long enough to deal some dmg while ap and ad can only run and hope rest of team will engage before you have to.

Shaco used to be champ that had so many playstyles, builds and ways to play. I used to have 8 different rune pages for shaco which with masteries and build had huge impact on your playstyle and game depending on if you knew to use them. Well I can only hope someone from riot sees this and atleast gives it a thought cause I know they can't have whole game balanced but why they tried to fix shaco when he wasn't broken, couldn't they follow simple "If it is not broken, don't fix it" policy.