Armor and Penetration

Potion SelIer·Feb 22, 2015·1 votes·799 views

So it seems as though AD assassins (pretty much just Zed in all honesty) can get ahead relatively quickly by focusing all their gold into a Brutalizer early on, and that's cool.

Now the not so fun part is stacking penetration. Like yeah, they're squishy, but it doesn't matter if they've killed your damage source. 60% reduced physical damage feels like much less when the enemy assassin has a Last Whisper AND a Black Cleaver.

Can armor pen be capped to a certain number or percentage? I feel like this is the same principle as to why we don't have 100% cdr, but I'm probably wrong.

EDIT: If anyone has any tips for dealing with this in game, I'd love to hear them.

19 Comments

Lean into itFeb 22, 20153 votes

its ok man its super balanced that a rengar can build every brutalizer item and a LW to assassinate squishys in half a second as well as people who built armor :^)

TalamareFeb 22, 20153 votes

Last Whisper counters Thornmail

TalamareFeb 22, 20153 votes

World of Warcraft realized that Armor Penetration was a broken system around Lich King expansion and basically removed it from the game. (or at least made it extremely rare and extremely controlled). Ghostcrawler has joined LoL, so I really do not understand why LoL still has this completely broken system. However yes, Armor Penetration stacking is overpowered.

64931067_DELFeb 22, 20152 votes

I play a lot of AD assasins like Zed, Talon. And I often run for full armor pen and CDR. Armor pen percentage is 40% max (In old masteries you can reach this number with 21-0-9 and a Last Whisper; now you can only reach 39%). Except for Yasuo when he use his ult and Darius E.

Potion SelIerFeb 22, 20152 votes

oh so it IS capped I was unaware. Well that throws this down the toilet lol

I still have no way of countering it though. It's utter bullshit when Zed throws out shadow clone and a shuriken and in one fell swoop I'm missing 30% of my health.

64931067_DELFeb 22, 20151 votes

It is his kit xD

TalamareFeb 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

oh so it IS capped I was unaware. Well that throws this down the toilet lol

I still have no way of countering it though. It's utter bullshit when Zed throws out shadow clone and a shuriken and in one fell swoop I'm missing 30% of my health.

It is not so much that it is capped, that just happens to be the highest you are able to reach (unless you are Darius or Yasuo)

Also, 39% is just how much % PENETRATION you can reach. Black Cleaver, is reduction, not penetration.

Let's say Jarvan and Wukong want to kill you, between them they have a Black Cleaver and both of them Last Whisper

vs... Sion who built... 10 Thornmails (YOU HEARD ME, 10!)

Sion has 1000 Armor! IMMUNE TO PHYSICAL TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE~! If Sion had 4000 HP, it would take ~44,000 physical damage to kill him! He has 91% damage reduction!

Well, both of them have Armor Reduction Abilities, as well as Black Cleaver So your 1,000 Armor will be reduced by 26% by Jarvan = 740 Armor Then your 740 Armor will be reduced by 30% by Wukong = 518 Armor Then your 518 Armor will be reduced by 25% by Black Cleaver = 388 Armor Then your 388 Armor will be reduced by 35% by Last Whisper = 252 Armor Then your 252 Armor will be reduced by 6% by Masteries = 237 Armor Then your 237 Armor will be reduced by 20 from Runes & 10 from Black Cleaver.

Your 1000 armor is now a paltry ~200 Your 45k Physical Health is now a pathetic 12k

Just by having Last Whisper, and hitting you with both their ~300 damage Q's. They have effectively dealt around 30,000 damage to you

Potion SelIerFeb 22, 20152 votes

basically what I'm hearing here is that Armor Pen is a broken system because it can stack ontop of itself and there's no cap for how much effect it will actually have on a champion.

You know, like knockup-stacking.

Arcade AndrewFeb 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It is not so much that it is capped, that just happens to be the highest you are able to reach (unless you are Darius or Yasuo)

Also, 39% is just how much % PENETRATION you can reach. Black Cleaver, is reduction, not penetration.

Let's say Jarvan and Wukong want to kill you, between them they have a Black Cleaver and both of them Last Whisper

vs... Sion who built... 10 Thornmails (YOU HEARD ME, 10!)

Sion has 1000 Armor! IMMUNE TO PHYSICAL TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE~! If Sion had 4000 HP, it would take ~44,000 physical damage to kill him! He has 91% damage reduction!

Well, both of them have Armor Reduction Abilities, as well as Black Cleaver So your 1,000 Armor will be reduced by 26% by Jarvan = 740 Armor Then your 740 Armor will be reduced by 30% by Wukong = 518 Armor Then your 518 Armor will be reduced by 25% by Black Cleaver = 388 Armor Then your 388 Armor will be reduced by 35% by Last Whisper = 252 Armor Then your 252 Armor will be reduced by 6% by Masteries = 237 Armor Then your 237 Armor will be reduced by 20 from Runes & 10 from Black Cleaver.

Your 1000 armor is now a paltry ~200 Your 45k Physical Health is now a pathetic 12k

Just by having Last Whisper, and hitting you with both their ~300 damage Q's. They have effectively dealt around 30,000 damage to you

Have you forgotten the damage theyll be dealing to themselves by hitting you?

Alot of people think its basic attacks only from thornmail that work but in reality its any physical damage

Done25Feb 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Have you forgotten the damage theyll be dealing to themselves by hitting you?

Alot of people think its basic attacks only from thornmail that work but in reality its any physical damage

No, it's only basic attacks that trigger it. Garen's Decisive Strike will be reflected, but his Judgment wont.

TalamareFeb 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Have you forgotten the damage theyll be dealing to themselves by hitting you?

Alot of people think its basic attacks only from thornmail that work but in reality its any physical damage

Thornmail is also completely countered by Magic Resist Let's say you have Thornmail and I auto attack you for 1,000 in 1 hit (I am just that awesome) 300 of it will be reflected back at me That 300 will now be reduced by my Magic Resist while your 1,000 will be reduced by your Armor

Let's say I have a bit of Magic Resist (150), and We are fighting that dude with 10 Thornmails.

If we attack his raw 1000 Armor, I will take 300 damage reduced 120 damage because of my Magic Resist He will take 91 damage. After all this penetration and reduction has been factored in however... He is back to taking 326 damage from the hit, while I only take 120.

Also, Lifesteal now comes into play. If I have a Bloodthrister providing 20% Lifesteal, Without Armor Penetration I would only heal 18.2 HP per auto on you since I am only dealing 91 damage. After Penetration and Reduction, my now increased damage allows me to heal 65 damage per hit. Negating the Thornmail's 120 damage reflection even further to 55.

Arcade AndrewFeb 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail is also completely countered by Magic Resist Let's say you have Thornmail and I auto attack you for 1,000 in 1 hit (I am just that awesome) 300 of it will be reflected back at me That 300 will now be reduced by my Magic Resist while your 1,000 will be reduced by your Armor

Let's say I have a bit of Magic Resist (150), and We are fighting that dude with 10 Thornmails.

If we attack his raw 1000 Armor, I will take 300 damage reduced 120 damage because of my Magic Resist He will take 91 damage. After all this penetration and reduction has been factored in however... He is back to taking 326 damage from the hit, while I only take 120.

Also, Lifesteal now comes into play. If I have a Bloodthrister providing 20% Lifesteal, Without Armor Penetration I would only heal 18.2 HP per auto on you since I am only dealing 91 damage. After Penetration and Reduction, my now increased damage allows me to heal 65 damage per hit. Negating the Thornmail's 120 damage reflection even further to 55.

Where do you plan on getting 150 MR from , if you put it in your runes and masteries than you better take out the armor pen in runes you got there if its in items, you better have a Spiritvisage and banshees to get close to 150 MR which leaves 4 items slots, one for boots, then LWcleaver and BT even if you have decent armor PEN the only really spike in damage in the BT meaning with ten thornmails playing as sion, 2v1, A: at level18 how much bonus health does he have (that would factor in on sion with his passive perm health gain) B: you can easily kite and do damage to them with abilties and auto attacks (or are you just sitting there afk? if so id report you) meaning they arent JUST taking dmg from thornmail they are also taking damage from you C: sions passive IF YOU CANT kill them but get them low, boom sion passive D: realistically you wont be alone 2v1 as a sion youd be with your team except when in lane... and when in lane if you somehow got ten thornmails and you still didnt get/lose any turrets something is wrong with that game

TLDR: Tanks QQ to much about items when they fail to look at the bigger picture such as: tanking for the carries (even if you die) other build paths to avoid dying (GA) staying with your team and not being an idoit 1v5ing

TalamareFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Where do you plan on getting 150 MR from , if you put it in your runes and masteries than you better take out the armor pen in runes you got there if its in items, you better have a Spiritvisage and banshees to get close to 150 MR which leaves 4 items slots, one for boots, then LWcleaver and BT even if you have decent armor PEN the only really spike in damage in the BT meaning with ten thornmails playing as sion, 2v1, A: at level18 how much bonus health does he have (that would factor in on sion with his passive perm health gain) B: you can easily kite and do damage to them with abilties and auto attacks (or are you just sitting there afk? if so id report you) meaning they arent JUST taking dmg from thornmail they are also taking damage from you C: sions passive IF YOU CANT kill them but get them low, boom sion passive D: realistically you wont be alone 2v1 as a sion youd be with your team except when in lane... and when in lane if you somehow got ten thornmails and you still didnt get/lose any turrets something is wrong with that game

TLDR: Tanks QQ to much about items when they fail to look at the bigger picture such as: tanking for the carries (even if you die) other build paths to avoid dying (GA) staying with your team and not being an idoit 1v5ing

150 MR is not that difficult to achieve 1 - 30 MR from base 2 - 30 MR from blues 3 - 25 MR from boots 4 - 20 MR from aegis

We are now at 100 MR Then you just need 1 item Guardian Angel perhaps? Maybe Banshee Veil instead? or are you more aggressive and went for a Mercurial Scimitar

As far as your B and C, Sion was really just a random name.

Arcade AndrewFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

150 MR is not that difficult to achieve 1 - 30 MR from base 2 - 30 MR from blues 3 - 25 MR from boots 4 - 20 MR from aegis

We are now at 100 MR Then you just need 1 item Guardian Angel perhaps? Maybe Banshee Veil instead? or are you more aggressive and went for a Mercurial Scimitar

As far as your B and C, Sion was really just a random name.

blue buff doesnt give MR anymore 25 from boots unless you want better boots for j4 and wukong aegis- which would mean your support would be there so its 3v1 unless j4 or wu got it then again a bit of an item slot waste

for any tank really, they are really OP even if you die as a tank, they spent so much abilties on you and shit trying to kill you that your carries melt them

TalamareFeb 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

blue buff doesnt give MR anymore 25 from boots unless you want better boots for j4 and wukong aegis- which would mean your support would be there so its 3v1 unless j4 or wu got it then again a bit of an item slot waste

for any tank really, they are really OP even if you die as a tank, they spent so much abilties on you and shit trying to kill you that your carries melt them

Blue Runes, not Blue buff and it's less the 3vs1 factor and more of the 5vs5

Potion SelIerFeb 22, 20152 votes

"WHY DID YOU BUILD THORNMAIL ON AZIR"

Arcade AndrewFeb 22, 20151 votes

Get a thornmail and they kill themselves LOL

Done25Feb 22, 20153 votes

Except only a small portion of Zed's damage is from auto attacks.

Arcade AndrewFeb 22, 20151 votes

Did you get sunfire cape too? if you didnt get sunfire cape them go get that and try again

Honestly AD is super weak compared to armor right now versus mages and MR options

for MR there are only two items that really make a difference Banshees and Spirit visage... those cost a crap ton of money compared to the very cheap thornmail and armor boots (which reduce auto attack damage by one) and then by the time you get fed from thornmail kills you get sunfire which does DOT just by standing there, THEN you can get randuins which slows the enemy attackers attack speed (great for dealing with ADC's/xins/ect then beyond that a GA allowed you go in head first and not die just in case they happen to kill you (even if they do, if your team is good youll ace them if they are an all AD team