AP champions need a new stat in order to fix their itemization

Stars Shaper··2 votes·2,190 views

The reason AP itemization is so much harder to both differentiate and balance it's that AP champions have 1 less stat to care about compared to ADs.

Coming up with a new stat though isn't that easy also because it should feel like only a certain group of APs should be looking for it over the others. The only one I could come up with works more rather as a new items' passive than a stat but it might be a good start:

Empower: Casting an ability that consumes mana empowers other abilities granting them a bonus that scales with the numeric value of empower you have.

This bonus can either be one between (or we can have mages choose a kind of empower based on the first empower item purchase) more raw damage, increased range, faster tick rate for dots, a high cance not to trigger the skill CD (only apliable to basic skills though) but causing the next cast to deal less damage/less CC duration.

Any more brainstorming is welcome.

Edit: I’m not saying that AP items are worse and should be buffed, I’m saying that it might be healthier for the game to have another AP focused stat in order to make AP items more easy to balance and differentiate mages’ builds.

32 Comments

Daddy Ants5 votes

AP itemization is the strongest in the game right now.

KirbyCake3 votes

{quoted}

AP itemization is the strongest in the game right now.

Does not matter while MR items are as strong as they are. You can easily buy adaptive helm to shut down AP champions but nothing against AD champions.

Daddy Ants3 votes

{quoted}

Does not matter while MR items are as strong as they are. You can easily buy adaptive helm to shut down AP champions but nothing against AD champions.

Yet MR is harder to "stack" than Armor is.

By the time a Tank has 300 Armor they have like 100 MR.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Indeed but the passive effects that come with MR items are what make mages easily countered unless they have some weird gimmick in their kit.

KirbyCake1 votes

{quoted}

Yet MR is harder to "stack" than Armor is.

By the time a Tank has 300 Armor they have like 100 MR.

All a tank needs is merc treads, spirit visage, and adaptive helm and they can go in 1 v 5 against a full ap team comp.

Stars Shaper2 votes

It being strong or weak isn't the point of the thread.

The issue is having 80% of mages with the same build and the easiness with which few items cghanges can make or break a lot of mages.

Moody P1 votes

it's not like anyone else has a massive variety of build choices

Stars Shaper1 votes

Yet mages have even less choices.

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

AP itemization needs to differentiate between burst and sustain. No AP item that provides HP should give more than 50 AP. look at AD side, they only have mallet, steraks and cleaver. None of those provide ridiculous amount of AD and the AP mage mains cried so hard when steraks was strong. Meanwhile they're fine with items like item 3165 and item 3116 providing a bunch of HP and AP.

MrHaZeYo5 votes

A bunch of HP? 300 is a bunch? Mages have no sustain, they need HP, I'd gladly trade some HP for a way for Mages to sustain.

hazerddex1 votes

{quoted}

A bunch of HP? 300 is a bunch? Mages have no sustain, they need HP, I'd gladly trade some HP for a way for Mages to sustain.

you mean like the spell vamp which use to be the 3rd stat mages had, but rito removed? because people cried about mages getting hp back?

the reason morellos gives hp was because it use to have spell vamp

also seen very few ap bursters would build crystal scepter. the rylas is more a ap bruser item then ap burster

Moody P2 votes

mages trying to revise history again? there were 4 champs who bought spellvamp at all -- mord, vlad, akali and kat - prior to it being deleted as a stat and after WOTA stacking was justly dealt with. there was no "3rd stat;" mages did not buy it, and if it was good at all then it was obscene on the champs who did.

hazerddex3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QjsjE9vX,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T01:21:13.968+0000)

mages trying to revise history again? there were 4 champs who bought spellvamp at all -- mord, vlad, akali and kat - prior to it being deleted as a stat and after WOTA stacking was justly dealt with. there was no "3rd stat;" mages did not buy it, and if it was good at all then it was obscene on the champs who did.

i use to get spell vamp on old xerath (before rework.) he was the only mage i played back then(lux doesn't count because everyone had lux back then.) before Sol just speaking from personal experience. aslo spell vamp was pretty good on Ahri as it stacked with her heal

MrHaZeYo2 votes

I play Ahri with Rav Hunter and Gunblade a lot, your W will heal you about half your HP if it hits 3 diff targets lol.

MrHaZeYo5 votes

Well, 1st it was OP, then it got changed and just became a Vlad only item, honestly, gunblade omni vamp is pretty decent on Mages to sustain but it's locked on a item that most of the class wouldn't want to get.

As far as stats though, Mages have AP, CDR, and HP. Those are their 3 stats.

boricCentaur11 votes

Ummmmm no morells was given mana to make up for spell vamp not hp the hp was only added in season 8 two seasons after the removal for spell vamp.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Actually. Morello was given Mana when they moved the stat of Mana Regen over to Support Mages, Morello during that change was meant to be the 1 stop 1st item shop for Mages, Mana became the new stat Mages would get through items so it was added to the Item every Mage got. (Also when Athenes became a full on support item, instead of Morello's competitor as a Mage item)

The item he is talking about is called Will of the Ancients, it was a AP item that granted spell vamp, it was basically only use by old Vlad (who got his mini rework when WoTA was removed, pretty sure that's when it happened, was the mid season mage rework of S6?)

Morello now gives HP, I assume because the old MPen item gave HP, and they used the exact same stats for new Morello as they did for old Liandyrs, except for it's Passive which stayed with it. It was never meant to, nor had spell vamp.

boricCentaur11 votes

Man I wish I could remember that far back I forgot about that thanks for the correction.

boricCentaur11 votes

300 is a lot like most bruiser items that give give around 400 hp and those items have low ad like black cleaver only has 40 ad vs a morello has 80 so yes it is a lot. Also mages should not have sustain since they have cc like take adcs they have sustained damage and need lifesteal since they have low cc where as mages that has sustained damage like cass has a lot of cc.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

Cass has a lot of CC? She usually has to build Ryalis to get a slow, otherwise she has a Grounded effect in a weird skill shot range, and a Ult that can stun.

Jinx has a snare, and a slow. Cait has a snare and a slow, Jhin has 2 slows and a snare, Trist has a massive leap and a knock back, Ashe has AAs that slow, a W that slows, a Q that enchances her AA slow and a global ult that stuns. MF has a slow. A lot of ADs have their own CC or ways to get around CC/Skill shots. Whereas most Mages are mostly immoblie, outside of MS boosts.

Mages don't have vamp because when it's strong it's to strong and when it's weak it's useless. Which is a lot of the reason they have HP/AP items.

A lot of Mages also have power tied into skill shots, most ADCs just need to be able to right click, so they can attack move and dodge skill shots, plus they have lifesteal to gain life if you do hit them but not combo them out. Once a Mage gets low their basically out of the fight.

Bruisers are a lot different of a class then Mages though now aren't they?

Cleaver offers 40 AD, a moderate amount for a class they also builds tanky and relies on some of that beefyness. 400 HP, that's basically the amount a HP/AR or HP/MR item gives. 20% CDR, like mages, a very useful stat. The ability to stick to a target with the Phage passive, and the ability to reduce percent armor. So for a rush item, I'd actually put it right up their with Ludens, sure it gives less AD, but AD items generally give less AD then AP items because AP only effects your ability scaling and not your AA and Ability Scaling. The AD also has to be lower to combat Assassins and ADCs from abusing it.

Bruisers also pack a good amount of CC and Mobility.

Like I said it would be cool if they moved the Omnivamp off Gunblade onto something else because a lot of champs can use that, but until that Mages need decent HP on items just to survive long enough in fights to get a couple rotations of their base abilities, outside of the fact this is your most average Mage build item 3285 item 3020 item 3165 item 3089 item 3157 item 3135 - that's 300 HP and 45 Armor I got.

Syrile1 votes

What items are you comparing to each other? It matters if you want to say that X item is stronger than Y item.

Also, if you notice, it is impossible to build a 5 AP team in League. But 5 AD? Not a problem at all.

Stars Shaper2 votes

I’m not making direct comparisons between items, I’m talking about abailable stats.

ADs have: Attack Damage, Attack Speed, CDR, Lethalty, Crit, Lifesteal and Armor Penetration.

APs have: Ability Power, CDR, Magic Penetration and Spell Vamp (though the only item with it is: item 3148).

Even compressing ArmPen and Lethalty in one stat, ADs have more stats around which being balanced.

I’m not saying that ADs items are better than APs’, rather that AP items are problematic to balance because Mages don’t have enough different stats to look for.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QjsjE9vX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-19T09:44:51.775+0000)

I’m not making direct comparisons between items, I’m talking about abailable stats.

ADs have: Attack Damage, Attack Speed, Lethalty, Crit, Lifesteal and Armor Penetration.

APs have: Ability Power, CDR, Magic Penetration and Spell Vamp.

Even compressing ArmPen and Lethalty in one stat, ADs have more stats around which being balanced.

I’m not saying that ADs items are better than APs’, rather that AP items are problematic to balance because Mages don’t have enough different stats to look for.

The stats are not an inherent problem. Though you left out health and mana, there is no items with Spell Vamp really that most mages would take.

Armor Pen and Lethality exist in mage form with Void Staff giving a percentage and Boots/Book giving direct numbers. CDR is basically Attack Speed for mages except their attacks cost mana, which has to be managed more than most AD champions. Essentially, the stats cause no real problem here.

Stars Shaper1 votes

I was focusing on the stats which are bound to the form of damage, that's why I didn't put mana and HP, I was uncertain about vamp/lifesteal too since the only vamp item is not so used by mages in general so we might aswell remove them from the equation too.

I am well aware that CDR is mages' Attack Speed and this is why I put them in the same order, whan mages lack is a form of "Crit".

The thing is that mages of different subclasses don't really have a different build path nor want different stats from eachother, the only difference is the focus on HP and defensive items that some tankier AP users build, this makes really easy to break a wide group of mages with even a single item change aimed at fixing another AP class. What I wanted to do mostly is adding a new stat so that the balance team could work on that too to differentiate mages and balance them and their itemizationin a more optimal way.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QjsjE9vX,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T10:47:41.074+0000)

I was focusing on the stats which are bound to the form of damage, that's why I didn't put mana and HP, I was uncertain about vamp/lifesteal too since the only vamp item is not so used by mages in general so we might aswell remove them from the equation too.

I am well aware that CDR is mages' Attack Speed and this is why I put them in the same order, whan mages lack is a form of "Crit".

The thing is that mages of different subclasses don't really have a different build path nor want different stats from eachother, the only difference is the focus on HP and defensive items that some tankier AP users build, this makes really easy to break a wide group of mages with even a single item change aimed at fixing another AP class. What I wanted to do mostly is adding a new stat so that the balance team could work on that too to differentiate mages and balance them and their itemizationin a more optimal way.

So yeah.. I really wish there were more build paths that were viable and fun. That I can totally agree with. However, sadly, the "balance" team would utterly ruin a Crit mage. It would be soooo much damage that it would dominate the game. Or it would be useless and forgotten until someone found a build that breaks the game with it, in which case they would nerf the champions instead of that build.

I could think of several ways of making this viable but I doubt they would ever get implemented properly.

Stars Shaper2 votes

Don't misinterpretate me, I don't want a Crit mage, I want another stat for APs that can work with mages (AP assassins already have what they need).

Syrile2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QjsjE9vX,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T11:20:13.159+0000)

Don't misinterpretate me, I don't want a Crit mage, I want another stat for APs that can work with mages (AP assassins already have what they need).

Haha You said that like you were offended by the idea. :D I mean, a crit-based mage could be cool. AP assassins fit the role of most other assassins, generally unbalanced and bad for the game. -_- But honestly the more viable variety the better.

Stars Shaper1 votes

I was really not xD I just wanted to be clear.

I thought myself about a crit-mage too and I agree with you: cool but easily broken by the balance team.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QjsjE9vX,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T11:53:59.903+0000)

I was really not xD I just wanted to be clear.

I thought myself about a crit-mage too and I agree with you: cool but easily broken by the balance team.

Yeah, I getcha. :) Or even an item that I was considering would be cool actually. Something similar. But I doubt that we would get anything viable and fun at the same time.

wildfox9T2 votes

there is no spellvamp item for mages,also ADs have access to CDR too

Stars Shaper1 votes

Fixing.

wildfox9T1 votes

it's not a mage neither pure AP item,item 3146 it's a hybrid AD/AP item viable only on Katarina and Akali (maybe Jax sometimes?),other champions can't build it so i don't think it's fair putting it in here

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