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Proposed Changes to Jarvan, Lee Sin and Vi & Reasoning behind it

Fruity Unicorn··1 votes·572 views

We all know that these 3 junglers are a problem right now but I think so far most of the suggestions are along the lines of 'nerf X dmg' which doesn't really make these champions any less frustrating to play against.

Instead I want to add counterplay and make them less reliable in every situation without changing their core identity

Lee Sin - Lower projectile speed of his Q significantly

Reasoning: For a spell that has next to no cost, low CD, high dmg + execute AND utility (vision) Lee's Q is insanely easy to hit, especially against immobile champs. This will make it much harder for Lee to initiate a gank at max range without the target being cc'd. Lee has to decide whether he wants to risk not hitting them or going in with W + slow them with e and then use his Q to be able to hit reliably. This change doesn't mess with his ability to jungle or his dmg output.

Vi - Turn her ultimate into a fast projectile skillshot, knocking up the first champion it hits

Reasoning: Right now Vi's ultimate is a 'delete'-button without any counterplay that is simply gated by its long CD. She can q+flash+ r the enemy adc in the backline without the adc or his teammates being able to do anything about it, and that's very frustrating to play against. If it's a skillshot the tank or bruiser can jump in between Vi and her target. It makes it more high risk-high reward, rather than the low risk-high reward ability it is now. The CD can be lowered to compensate for the loss of reliability.

Jarvan IV - Jarvan can no longer destroy the terrain by reacvtivating his ultimate

Reasoning: This makes Jarvan's ultimate more of a commitment rather than being solely used as a gapcloser + dmg. He has to decide whether he really wants to follow up with his ultimate directly after using his e+q combo and then be an easy target for the enemy team. Alternatively he has to use his ultimate first and then follow up with e+q to be able to catch anyone blinking out of the terrain. This also makes towerdiving with his ultimate a lot higher risk than it is now.

**I would really like to hear your Feedback on this! If there is a Red reading this I would really like to know whether you've considered these changes and if so why they haven't been tested. Thx a lot ! **

11 Comments

NorthernDruid2 votes

So, Vi's ult is now just a bigger version of her Q?

Fruity Unicorn1 votes

No, it has no channel time and it's not Aoe.

IcyPepper1 votes

Frankly, that'd be kind of boring. Her ult disrupts teamfight positioning, forcing the enemy to either focus her to save the carry or risk taking damage from Vi's carries. It's similar to Janna's ult, but with damage instead of healing.

I think you could nerf the damage of it, but there's a lot of champions with point and click execute ultimates. Darius Garen Zed

Fruity Unicorn1 votes

None of these have superlong knock-ups built in and Garen and Darius don't have gapclosers, let alone 2. Zed is a bad example because he has major balance issues as well. The new Vi ult would serve the same purpose as her old one without being so reliable with zero counterplay.

IcyPepper1 votes

Darius has his axe hook thingy... and his passive. Plus his ultimate deals true damage instead of physical, and has a cd reset on kill. Vi doesn't have that. Darius is more of an anti-melee bully, while Vi is way more of a bruiser.

Garen deals magic damage and his ultimate is ranged, but deals more damage with lower health (iirc?). His gap closer is just a speed boost, so I wouldn't really consider it much... Vi has a more updated kit than he does, for sure.

My main problem with people complaining about Vi isn't the complaints themselves, but what they're about. Using Vi's point and click ultimate (Syndra also has one, and it allows an entire team stun if followed by another spell) as an execute is boring and wasteful of its potential late-game (early game for ganks, then yeah). A good Vi uses her ult to disrupt enemy positioning, but builds tanky instead of damage to do so (because, well, she'll die if she's not tanky enough. She can't be cc'd, but she can be killed during the ult).

I will admit that Vi needs some tweaking, though. Having two gap closers doesn't seem terribly unbalanced to me, but having two passives kinda... hm. I think the attack speed boost of her W should be removed, and maybe her passive shield scales with armor instead of health. I'm not sure, I'm not on the balancing team, but I don't think Vi's ult is the issue here.

stuartk111 votes

I like the idea of these changes, but not a big fan of Jarvan's change. It can also make it more frustrating for his team-mates and doesn't solve too many of his problems, such as large ganking range with large reliability with his ultimate's lockdown.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Lee Sin's & Vi's changes seems ideal, but J4's changes will seriously hurt him a lot in many type of teamfights, or even 1v1. It's wiser to just decrease the amount of damage done by his ult instead of deactivating the wall breaking.

Fruity Unicorn1 votes

Thx for the feedback! Jarvan actually gave me the biggest headache because I don't think his kit is that much of problem. I do think his numbers maybe could be toned down a bit but that might end up making him feel a bit unsatisfying. He has the same issue as Lee + Vi in that he has 2 gapclosers that are easy to pull of. Perhaps his ulti should have significantly lower range, so he has to use e+q to get in range.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

In general, I think these nerfs aren't well aimed. These champions are all overly general. I think they are all in need of real weaknesses far more than they are in need of toned down strengths.

Lee Sin - Lower projectile speed of his Q significantly

This is the best idea of the bunch. Does create increased counterplay and reward both sides for expression of skill.

Vi - Turn her ultimate into a fast projectile skillshot, knocking up the first champion it hits

It's a slightly better Q? That's a pretty terrible ultimate. From my point of view, reliable initiation is why you play Vi. Would recommend looking at nerfs elsewhere -- toning down her burst damage, weakening her clear speeds, or reducing her innate tankiness are all good options.

Jarvan IV - Jarvan can no longer destroy the terrain by reacvtivating his ultimate

This feels awful. Doesn't any mobile ADC just murder J4?

Fruity Unicorn1 votes

As far as Vi is concerned:

Her reliable initition is definitely part of the reason she's out of tune. A targeted 800 range gapcloser + long knockup + high dmg IS a problem. Something needs to go. If the range stays I'd say it has to be a skillshot in order to be not as reliable. If It has to be reliable (=targeted) then I think the range needs to go so that she has to use to q to get in range for her ulti. How would you go about nerfing her innate tankiness?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

A targeted 800 range gapcloser + long knockup + high dmg IS a problem.

I don't really think it is. Vi had all those things when she was out of the meta.

I prefer a game design where champions have strong strengths and weak weaknesses. Nerf the strong points of all the strong champions and you will end up with a lot of samey feeling bruisers.

How would you go about nerfing her innate tankiness?

Passive down from 10% to 7% of max health shield. Alternatively, passive moved from %max health to %bonus health.

Health per level from 85 to 75.

That sort of thing.

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