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garen is not OP

insane lel··4 votes·1,501 views

Okay fine, garen is not OP. maybe we are playing against it wrong. TELL ME BALANCE TEAM, HOW DO I PLAY AGAINST HIM IN SOLO QUEUE. ONLY 1 THING TO DO, QWE AND RUN LIKE A RETARD TELL ME

HOW THE FUCK ARE WE SUPPOSED TO PLAY AROUND THIS CHAMP IN SOLOQUEUE I MEAN WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS GAME

ALL GAME HE DOES NOTHING GETS IN, HITS QWE AND RUNS. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK IS thIS BALANCED OR WHAT? FUCKING 2 LEAGUES BELOW, BRONZE GAREN DOES THIS TO ME HOW THE FUCK DO I GET A RESPONSE NO I DONT WANT TO CHANGE MY CHAMPION POOL, TELL ME HOW THE FUCK DO I COUNTER HIM. I HAVE SAME CS THAN HIM, HE JUST HAS 14 KILLS BY THE END OF THE GAME. CHARGE WITH DEADMANS PLATE QWE AND RUN. COME BACK AND ULT. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK

add: since board is actually thinking this is more of a rage post than fact based

  1. garen w gives damage reduction onto the insane amount and ofcourse tenacity
  2. his q gives him means to kite with too much MS, so much so that a vi, jax and raka can't catch up to him when they are on top of him a second ago.
  3. even if we chunk him down, he comes back 8 seconds later healing abysmal amount because of passive post level 11. Before level 11 he just e's and clears wave and runes if matchup is hard.

here are your facts, dispute them and tell me whats wrong

39 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

at least you admit it.

by the way, hes already past you. looks like a smurph maybe. 78% winrate is pretty good.

insane lel1 votes

78% win rate because he is garen playing in silver and i dont play jax. Point is qwe run should be a meme for garen and heights of damage reduction he gets.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-08T00:58:58.037+0000)

78% win rate because he is garen playing in silver and i dont play jax. Point is qwe run should be a meme for garen and heights of damage reduction he gets.

78% winrate overall. he also has almost 70% with jax. and 71% with jayce.

looks to me like youre a meta sheep who only plays the "broken champs", and never really plays jax otherwise. you keep jumping from champion to champion like akali, irelia, jax, yi, then lee and ryze, katarina and others.

there is no consistency, and youre playing a lot of champions that are probably beyond your abilities for a beginner whos still sitting in silver.

looks like you got stomped by someone who knew his champion better than you, while he was playing below his mmr.

insane lel2 votes

i am not a meta sheep, nice assumption though. i have an old account (this one, which i rarely used) so i dont have many champions, and those i wanted were banned.

"there is no consistency, and youre playing a lot of champions that are probably beyond your abilities for a beginner whos still sitting in silver." i am plat on my main account, this is just as a secondary account i created a year ago to play in case i dodge some games on the other one. hope that resolves all issues. Btw, ryze katarina are off meta champions. and i dont spam irelia or akali, i just play randomly.

TehNACHO2 votes

NO I DONT WANT TO CHANGE MY CHAMPION POOL, TELL ME HOW THE FUCK DO I COUNTER HIM

This just about sums up why I think it's impossible to help people on the Boards sometimes.

insane lel2 votes

you know, if changing champion pool was the answer to everything i really doubt OTP's would have made it to challenger or even diamond.

TehNACHO1 votes

But no true OTPs ever do make it to a high level. They always have back up champions for when their champions get banned or for handling very specific matchups. Or alternatively, they're Jungle mains and don't need to deal with the 1v1 pressure of a hard counter most of the time like Cowsep.

And furthermore you're not a challenger or diamond player so don't even try to compare yourself to them.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

But no true OTPs ever do make it to a high level. They always have back up champions for when their champions get banned or for handling very specific matchups.

yes, but there is still a benefit in a small but consistent champion pool.

chose one role, master 4 or 5 champions for that role and learn the strategic basics of the game, before you branch out.

this is how you improve.

not by jumping from one meta champion that you never played to the next. every time youre starting at 0 and have to learn all over how to really master your champion.

op really just seems to pick the most complicated meta champions he can find and jumps from there to the next.

meanwhile that other guy picked garen in 7 out of 10 games and knows how to play his champion.

insane lel1 votes

dude, i crushed him in the lane. As jax does, he was 50 cs down in fact. But all he does is e for wave clear, and tries to qwe and run. once i got low enough, flash ingite and r. Every single time vi ganked me, he was at my tower, vi came from brushes and cc in. He still runs away. I don't know very well how to play jax, But i know enough to crush any silver player. its not about champion mechanics, if he was riven or zed and had 70% winrate in his games you can attribute that. Garen requires 0 mechanics, and his w is atrocious. All he has to do is e for cs run back regen and come back. Later, qwe and run. Thats the point, even while behind all garen does is shit on anyone .

d9u7c1anh1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T01:38:53.299+0000)

dude, i crushed him in the lane. As jax does, he was 50 cs down in fact. But all he does is e for wave clear, and tries to qwe and run. once i got low enough, flash ingite and r. Every single time vi ganked me, he was at my tower, vi came from brushes and cc in. He still runs away. I don't know very well how to play jax, But i know enough to crush any silver player. its not about champion mechanics, if he was riven or zed and had 70% winrate in his games you can attribute that. Garen requires 0 mechanics, and his w is atrocious. All he has to do is e for cs run back regen and come back. Later, qwe and run. Thats the point, even while behind all garen does is shit on anyone .

if his E don't clear entire wave in the early game, not to mentionn if he do that then he only have his Q and his auto for damage with is useless against Jax Q and E and Jax should try to E stun him and then W (it wiuld chunk a big part of his health) cause he can W to reduce damage if he was not stunned. And don't worry, if you are actually good with Jax and you have a good lead, then you can even tower drive him. Of cource, that is what i have seen a Jax defeat Garen in Diamond+ elo.

insane lel1 votes

yeah, he tried q'ing and i e'd properly. 3 instances later he realized he could just e and run back. So i was up by 50~ cs but as game progressed it hardly mattered. I couldnt push his tower because of his e wave clear. I didnt have problems in lane unless i made a mistake. It was majorly uninteractive play, with him clearing e and if i got ganks w and q to disengage.

about tower diving, i'd refrain from that because he will just run away. And if you do eq, then he can wait out e time. Then q e under tower with ulti finish. Its a disaster.

d9u7c1anh1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T03:18:39.973+0000)

yeah, he tried q'ing and i e'd properly. 3 instances later he realized he could just e and run back. So i was up by 50~ cs but as game progressed it hardly mattered. I couldnt push his tower because of his e wave clear. I didnt have problems in lane unless i made a mistake. It was majorly uninteractive play, with him clearing e and if i got ganks w and q to disengage.

about tower diving, i'd refrain from that because he will just run away. And if you do eq, then he can wait out e time. Then q e under tower with ulti finish. Its a disaster.

If he do that then go and help your team, if you are lucky then you can even catch him outside his tower and kill him. By the way, what is his rune? I admit that mid-late game Phase Rush Garen is very hard to catch.

insane lel1 votes

he was grasp as usual and had demolition i think, i couldnt have left tower.

TehNACHO1 votes

I feel like my argument is starting to get mischaracterized here.

Look here's how I learned it back in the old days. If you wanted to keep your champion pool small and lean, that's great, but pick diverse champs for different situations. Typically the example given was three champions. Mid Lane players were taught to learn an Assassin and two different types of Mages. Bot laners should learn a Utility ADC, a Lane Bully, and a Hyper Carry. And, in regards to insane lel in Top Lane, he should learn a Tank/Safe pick, a Lane Bully, and a Top Lane carry. From what I briefly saw from insane lel's match history, he only plays Top Lane carries. Having a small and lean champion pool is great for mastering the basics of the game but his champion pool is straight up lopsided and has multiple single points of failure. One of those single points of failure being Garen.

I wasn't telling him to learn every champ in the game, but at the very least he could, and I loosely quote myself, "pick up a back up champ for handling very specific matchups"

insane lel1 votes

"From what I briefly saw from insane lel's match history" what you saw was only today and yesterday, you should search more if you want to make assumptions 4 days ago i was playing mid and jg, mid because i can jg to practice lee sin. 7 days ago i was playing aram on it. Please check your facts.

TehNACHO1 votes

Right it's just the problem is I don't care who you are that much. I'm only gonna look at what you've done recently, and especially for complaining about Garen, you're a top player.

insane lel1 votes

good, then dont comment here. Why do you care so much to type a reply?

insane lel1 votes

idk if my information is wrong or something. But as far as i know, diamond and + are filled with OTP's. if they get sniped, they dodge and log in from different account. Or the ones who dont stream are always okay. Obviously they know how to play other champions okayish.

"And furthermore you're not a challenger or diamond player so don't even try to compare yourself to them." thanks for reminding me, i didn't know that. very useful piece of information, it helps me.

TehNACHO1 votes

Obviously they know how to play other champions okayish.

...well there you go.

And furthermore, I assume you're not a dodger with a billion different accounts. And still not a diamond player either. The point is, stop comparing yourself to them because what applies to them won't apply to you since you're not like them.

insane lel1 votes

players picking secondary picks because their OTP was banned is NOT THE SAME AS players counterpicking a champion with secondary. if you have anything useful in game mechanic to contribute or answer my question above then do state your opinion, if you have "you are not a pro, learn the game" then GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE

TehNACHO1 votes

if you have anything useful in game mechanic to contribute or answer my question above then do state your opinion

Pick a new champ to cover your weakpoints.

You saw my other comment. Your champion pool has single points of weaknesses, namely all Juggernauts in this case. If you don't have the reading comprehension skill to put 2 and 2 together, then GeT tHe FuCk OuT oF hErE.

insane lel1 votes

i think you didnt see my other comment, this is a temp id i use. I play at least 50-60 champions with mastery 6 and 7 on them. i dont have problem with champion pool, i have problem with this weq disengage+damage reduction+offense+waveclear. again, get lost kid.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

hmm how do you beat any juggerenaut ?

insane lel1 votes

i hardly have problems against anyone else but w damage reduction is absolute bullshit

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

i understand. however as someone who plays alot of top lane and gets counter picked by garen alot i have learned how to play around him.

i dont know what champ you play into /against him.

garens ult does magic damage unless you are villain so if you can take it in runes null orb works well vs his ult so does mercs, hex any kind of mr or magic shield. sterak's works well in general vs his ult.

you need some kind of harass and make sure you use it ever 8 seconds to keep his passive down. shoving wave vs him works cuz he is bad at farming under turret.

if you see garen is close to getting level 6 and you are 50% hp or less just back/recall cuz he will use lvl 6 and all in you with ult/ignite to get a kill. to deny him this easy cheese goes along way to beating him.

he is a lane bully. out of lane unless fed he can be controlled like other juggernauts , hard cc/kite. his lvl 6 is a power spike and so is lvl 11 where his passive really gets strong.

since he gets free armor/mr some kind of true damage from a champ works well too

Jamaree1 votes

Kite him, literally the same things that have been beating him for 9 years now.

insane lel1 votes

really? kite a garen with deadmans plate and q on? how long do we kite? he clears with e and runs off to q someone else. Teamfights? garen jumps in qwe and run, chunks down. Then comes back again. and before you say get cc this is what we had in our team ekko, raka, jax, vi this kind of cc i usually get once in 100 games.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-08T01:00:28.282+0000)

really? kite a garen with deadmans plate and q on?

Yeah, it is pretty easy, Teemo, Kennen, Kayle, Gnar, and Vlad can do it.

how long do we kite? he clears with e and runs off to q someone else.

If he is using E to clear, he isn't using it to damage you.

Teamfights?

AoE CC him down?

garen jumps in qwe and run, chunks down. Then comes back again.

Why are you even letting him touch you, kite him.

and before you say get cc this is what we had in our team ekko, raka, jax, vi

Yeah, you were all close range champions, things Garen preys on. You need to be willing to expand your champion pool, you can't refuse to switch off your fire type and complain that water type pokemon are OP, your entire champion pool from what I see except one champion loses to Garen, that is on you.

insane lel1 votes

so, teemo kennen kayne and gnar vlad have skills to boost ms. I was playing jax hence i said "kite a garen with deadmans". Once again, problem is not his kill potential on you (i can get by that). Problem is his wq disengage and e wave clear.

again, problem is wq disengage and e wave clear, not his kill potential on me. He can farm until he gets 2 armour/mr items and then he will join team fights where he can tank damage heals up back and comes again to qwe.

"Why are you even letting him touch you, kite him." i dont think you understand, even in teamfights. he is not touching me, he is touching anyone who is immobile and qwe then finisher if they are not low enough.

Plus insane wave clear + high tank + disengage = OP Cant gank him unless chain cc'd and his w is on cd. With deadman's he is hard to kill because of 60MS.

Dude, my champ pool is pretty diverse. I can always play ranked poke champs to fuck garen. But those champs aren;t fun and stay under tower just pressing buttons with no real skill.

Again, this is not about winning the game with champions. Its about hard disengage damage reduction armour + mr + high ms + high wave clear + high potential.

SHIT! I Should play garen totally. NOOOOO, the point is not to counter pick, the point is how to get by or acknowledge that garen weq are OP.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T03:26:16.355+0000)

so, teemo kennen kayne and gnar vlad have skills to boost ms.

No, but they all have innate slows and various CC to counter his Q, remember his Q only stops current slows on him, it doesn't prevent slows.

I was playing jax hence i said "kite a garen with deadmans".

Garen counters Jax.

Once again, problem is not his kill potential on you (i can get by that). Problem is his wq disengage and e wave clear.

Why, look what he loses to have a kit like that.

again, problem is wq disengage and e wave clear, not his kill potential on me.

Ok and?

He can farm until he gets 2 armour/mr items and then he will join team fights where he can tank damage heals up back and comes again to qwe.

While doing no damage the moment anyone except for the villain buys armor...since he is pure tank and tank Garen is shit.

"Why are you even letting him touch you, kite him." i dont think you understand, even in teamfights. he is not touching me, he is touching anyone who is immobile and qwe then finisher if they are not low enough.

In a proper team comp then, that should only be tanks, if the squishy non mobile ADCs are in front, then they would die anyway.

Plus insane wave clear + high tank + disengage = OP

It isn't insane, it is actually fairly average, even more so considering the damage of it gets lower if there is even another thing taking damage, his tanking isn't all that high, and if he is using his Q to disengage, how did he engage in the first place, because if you get engaged on by a Garen without him even using Q, you deserve to be popped.

Cant gank him unless chain cc'd and his w is on cd. With deadman's he is hard to kill because of 60MS.

I mean if you use only dream scenarios, then yeah, Garen is unbeatable, now let's get away from LoL dreamland for a bit. Deadman's plate isn't a lane item, he isn't going to have that in the laning phase unless he is absolutely stomping his opponent, and even then that means he isn't using his Q at all.

Dude, my champ pool is pretty diverse. I can always play ranked poke champs to fuck garen. But those champs aren;t fun and stay under tower just pressing buttons with no real skill.

?

Again, this is not about winning the game with champions. Its about hard disengage damage reduction armour + mr + high ms + high wave clear + high potential.

Yeah, that doesn't happen.

SHIT! I Should play garen totally. NOOOOO, the point is not to counter pick, the point is how to get by or acknowledge that garen weq are OP.

Except it isn't, hence why he STILL doesn't see pro play because of how binary and basic he is.

insane lel1 votes

dont give me the pro play bullshit, lot of other current OP champions like kayn graves arent seen in pro play because organized teams can screw them up. I am sure a cc train of vi raka and jax didnt work on garen this game, but in pro play people dont fuck up and time their cc's or bait out w before they engage. Because its coordinated team. look at the state of ryze right now, while being shit tier solo queue champ, he is good in pro play.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T05:05:16.861+0000)

dont give me the pro play bullshit, lot of other current OP champions like kayn graves arent seen in pro play because organized teams can screw them up.

Kayn is OP?

I am sure a cc train of vi raka and jax didnt work on garen this game, but in pro play people dont fuck up and time their cc's or bait out w before they engage. Because its coordinated team.

So the game should be dumbed down rather then us the playerbase improve? So because there are players like you who use buzzwords and dream scenarios for champions, he should be nerfed?

insane lel1 votes

"Kayn is OP?" are you living under a rock or something? that e buff literally broke solo queue.

"So the game should be dumbed down rather then us the playerbase improve? So because there are players like you who use buzzwords and dream scenarios for champions, he should be nerfed?" i didn't say that,

  1. if garen was outplaying me by flashy plays
  2. if garen was abusing some hidden technique i didn't know of
  3. if garen was not paying for micro but playing for macro

i'd be more than happy to say i wanna improve because there is something i couldn't have done. But the game i played was pure cancer.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T05:50:50.363+0000)

"Kayn is OP?" are you living under a rock or something? that e buff literally broke solo queue.

Doesn't seem that bad since he is sitting at around 50% at all elos.

"So the game should be dumbed down rather then us the playerbase improve? So because there are players like you who use buzzwords and dream scenarios for champions, he should be nerfed?" i didn't say that,

  1. if garen was outplaying me by flashy plays
  2. if garen was abusing some hidden technique i didn't know of
  3. if garen was not paying for micro but playing for macro

i'd be more than happy to say i wanna improve because there is something i couldn't have done. But the game i played was pure cancer.

Yeah, because the champion you play directly loses to Garen, Garen is one of Jax's hardest counters, kind of hard to have fun.

insane lel1 votes

if winrate proved someone's OP'ness, we'd all be eating candy and it'd already be Halloween. unfortunately, even bronze silver people play kayn.

as for garen being jax's hardest counters, i think you misspoke garen doesn't counter jax. as a jax you can evade both his e and q while trading back. Also, ward hopping ensures garen never kills jax, unless jax is stupid. While jax is mana gated, garen is not that is the only weakness i can see. The game was not fun in the sense, garen was a stupid tank who'd just come in at the right moment to r or ignite. Not in 1 place did he solo me or anyone else, after he builds his items yea, but that game was cancerous because there is nothing that goes through his w except true damage champions.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=insane lel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QORqxEXn,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-08T06:32:29.087+0000)

if winrate proved someone's OP'ness, we'd all be eating candy and it'd already be Halloween. unfortunately, even bronze silver people play kayn.

His win rate is below the average there actually, but k.

as for garen being jax's hardest counters, i think you misspoke garen doesn't counter jax. as a jax you can evade both his e and q while trading back. Also, ward hopping ensures garen never kills jax, unless jax is stupid. While jax is mana gated, garen is not that is the only weakness i can see.

Garen does beat him, if Jax miss times his E, a good Garen will just spin and out DPS his AAs, then Q once the stun fades, and you don't have the opportunity to trade in and out when you are silenced.

The game was not fun in the sense, garen was a stupid tank who'd just come in at the right moment to r or ignite. Not in 1 place did he solo me or anyone else, after he builds his items yea, but that game was cancerous because there is nothing that goes through his w except true damage champions.

That is because your entire team comp loses to Garen because all the champions on your team except the Draven lose to him outright. Jax loses the match up straight up, Vi and Ekko have to be up close and personal to do their damage which Garen also preys on, Soraka lacks the instant hard CC to do anything to stop him.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

I'm with you OP. Garen is busted. However, I accidentally stumbled on to the fact that Fiora shits on him at all stages of the game and I'm kinda maining her these days so he stopped being one of my main problems.

insane lel1 votes

yea i can play fiora but i dont have that champion on this id unfortunately.

Illidan931 votes

Garen walks into a bar, there is no counter

ok, but really, he was OP and then they buffed him

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