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Why are placements such a worthless system for a Bronze player?

VEX Jiarg··38 votes·3,870 views

So I ended last season at Bronze IV. I ended up becoming really good at a few champions (read: Hecarim is broken rn) during the pre-season. I ended up doing incredibly well in my placements - I went 7W/3L and got at least an S- in 5 of those games. I was really proud of myself, thinking "wow, I should place high bronze and then be able to climb to silver in like a month"

Nope, Bronze V. Dreams crushed.

Now I get that you're supposed to place lower than where you ended last season. That makes total sense to me. It just begs the question:

"If I can win 7 out of 10 games and place at the worst rank possible, why even try?"

I could have literally intentionally fed and lost every single game, and placed in exactly the same spot. Why did I bother concentrating, or focusing so hard on counterpicks and lane matchups, when there is zero motivation for me to do well? Like at least make me B4. Or perhaps set the lowest possible rank one can place at B4, that way there's still room to drop.

My ultimate suggestion is that players who ended in Bronze should place anywhere from Bronze 4 to Bronze 1 in the next season, based on their performance in placements. Y'know... make them actually mean something__, for God's sake.

EDIT: I appreciate all of the people educating me about MMR. It's made me a lot more hopeful concerning actually climbing up to silver this season.

However, my point still stands. I ended last season at B4. Meaning my MMR was B4.

I have now finished my placements, and I am in B5 with B4 MMR.

Thus, why not just throw me into B5 with B4 MMR from the get-go? Why make me play 10 pointless games before I can actually start climbing?

99 Comments

Hópe36 votes

Lol at these people trying to justify what happened.

If you're bronze 4 and you went 7-3 in your placements you should atleast earn a hard bronze 2. Getting placed bronze 5 shows the system has major flaws. There shouldnt BE any placements then.

VEX Jiarg7 votes

My point exactly.

Z3Sleeper5 votes

Has nothing to do with rank and moreso to do with MMR. You can check your MMR during placements to see where you're at and you'll get placed wherever your MMR falls at (unless your MMR is Diamond 5+, then you're just Plat 1).

I mean, does it seem fair that people with D2 MMR are being placed in Plat 1 and forced to climb through that hellhole?

GripaAviara3 votes

Dude, who cares if it has to do with MMR. If he would've been insta placed B5 and won 7 out of 10 games, his MMR would be the same as now and he would be B4 already. This MMR thing is just desperate defending of a system that is stupid from its inception. Only new players that just start ranked should deal with placement games. The others should be insta place where the system wants based on last seasons and preseason performance

Z3Sleeper2 votes

{quoted}

Dude, who cares if it has to do with MMR. If he would've been insta placed B5 and won 7 out of 10 games, his MMR would be the same as now and he would be B4 already.

It actually wouldn’t. Bronze V MMR covers a large range of MMR (i believe it’s 0-600). There’s alot more MMR meat to climb through.

If the actual rank is all that matters to you they could implement more bronze ranks for below bronze V so the change is more easily seen.

PB4UAME1 votes

This. Ironically they completely miss the point. MMR is what's important. MMR IS the match making system, its what matches you, its what makes games, it's what determines LP gains/losses. The tier/division shit is just that. Shit. Sure, they polished it and made it look pretty since everyone (who wasn't good with numbers/stats) hated just seeing raw Elo, but it's never been important. It's just a dressed up dopamine wheel placed on top of the entirely separate match making system.

Limrick2 votes

It doesn't really though, at least not at lower ranks. I ended Season 6 Silver 3, my preseason 7 MMR was Silver 1, and I placed in Bronze 3 for Season 7.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Your preseason MMR drops a bit once season 8 starts to reevaluate whether players belong at that rank or not.

Once again, you can check it during placement matches by using sources like OP.GG.

Limrick2 votes

Drops a bit? An entire division and a half is a bit?

PB4UAME2 votes

People's Elo inflates every season, and people who play more games are less likely to experience this, but it can still crop up even after say, 300-400 games that season. The reset is specifically designed to prevent that inflation.

Another way to do it, would be just make everyone Silver 4 (1200Elo) and let them climb [and fall] from that (first season). Of course, would be a tad bit of a shit show with the player-base size we have now, but I think it should give you an idea of the extent of the problem, given that nuking everything and starting from scratch each year is actually a viable, and not uncommon, of a solution to it.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

And noone who is bronze level wants to start the season off silver just to see themself fall back down.

KlydeFrog2 votes

Or better yet he could've went 10 and 0 and still put in bronze 5 but a diamond player can go 0 and 10 and be put in plat lol

Z3Sleeper3 votes

Pretty much. If you’re high Diamond losing 10 matches isn’t gonna drop your MMR below plat 1.

I went 5-5 in placements (horrible i know) and i got placed plat 1.

ViridianEight1 votes

its because of mmr, thats how it should work

PB4UAME1 votes

This would cause Elo inflation, as you'd essentially be slowly inflating Elo every year due to loss forgiveness in the case of server instability, and a few other cases. To account for this, each season has a soft reset at the beginning which is why you'll almost always place a little bit lower than you were. I really don't want to get into the math, but its better for the over all queue's integrity for this to happen, even if it feels bad to the individual.

HOWEVER, it is also not the full story! In addition to your utterly meaningless placement (the part you and the OP are concerned about) is your actually meaningful MMR, or Match Making Rating-- a derivation of the standard Elo model fitted to League/being multiplayer/etc. Winning those games doesn't affect your placement due to your position relative to the player-base of your region, however, your MMR will be increasing every game, and the K value for this MMR system was also likely (partially) reset. [K is a function of the number of games played. K then influences ΔMMR]

What this means then, is that the climb from B5 will be shorter, as you will be getting more LP per win, and losing less per loss, until you play a bunch of games, and get to where you actually belong with your skill level (it would literally infinite games, technically, but LoL's MMR approaches where it should be within a few hundred games for over 99.7% of the population).

Azuregore1 votes

{quoted}

Lol at these people trying to justify what happened.

If you're bronze 4 and you went 7-3 in your placements you should atleast earn a hard bronze 2. Getting placed bronze 5 shows the system has major flaws. There shouldnt BE any placements then.

Ended last season at G5, took a several month hiatus. Went and did my placements for this season and instantly got placed back in G5. System definitely has flaws, where though, I have no idea. EDIT: Went 6-4 in placements for records sake.

Daunt1 votes

Lol at these people that don't understand that everyone has to move down on the ladder since challengers start at p1. Also, your division doesn't mean as much as your MMR does. It's not the same if you went 7-3 or 0-10.

Cavemantero17 votes

Elo system = Broken.

Z3Sleeper8 votes

Cuz your MMR just went up. Do know that there is MMR dropping below Bronze V level (which technically is still Bronze V).

Basically u went from low Bronze V elo to high Bronze V elo and now getting out of Bronze should be easier with more LP gains per win.

Your MMR is sitting at a Bronze 4 level right now though. Should be easy to climb.

Mobile Phone7 votes

Whats not fair for you? You have bronze 5 mmr with the added that everyone is getting a drop. Lets say you were Silver 3 with bronze 2 mmr and you went 8/2 in your games and you got put silver 1/ gold 5 wow thats totally fair right haha! I was plat 2 and i dropped to gold 1 and all challenger/master players got put between plat 1 and diamond 4 after playing more than a thousand games some two thousand or more, but if the 10 games only mattered that would be so op.

So with you having about a 25% winrate overall last season id say nothing wrong with just 1 rank drop.

VEX Jiarg5 votes

The thing is, I don't have B5 MMR. Don't know where you got that idea. My point is that Bronze elo has such a wide range of skill levels that you should have a greater freedom in placement. You could get high silver players who completely screwed up their placements, or you could get lifetime B5 players who placed exactly where they were last season.

Also, NOT everyone is getting a drop. Riot explicitly states that it's entirely possible to GAIN ranking in placements.

Get your facts straight before you try to show them off.

Disembark3 votes

Don’t worry, your MMR is probably a lot higher than you think. You’ll probably be playing with B3-B2 players from last season, not B5 players from last season.

Play a couple games, you’ll probably be earning 25+ LP

Wildebeast181 votes

{quoted}

Don’t worry, your MMR is probably a lot higher than you think. You’ll probably be playing with B3-B2 players from last season, not B5 players from last season.

Play a couple games, you’ll probably be earning 25+ LP

I went 9/1 in placements and got put in bronze 3 or something. I was a little disappointed but I've been getting like 25+ lp every game, I think it's a fair system.

TSM Dodge7 votes

It seems that the main issue is that low elo players don't understand what placements are for. It is to get you into ranked. If you perform like a bronze player you will be placed in bronze. Considering high elo is shifted down; every elo has to be shifted down. Unless you do well in your placements and get ranked higher stop complaining. Every season low elo players whine about how they went "7/3 in placements". It doesn't matter what your record is. It takes into account your previous mmr, how well you play, and which games you win.

VEX Jiarg10 votes

My point is - there should be a difference in outcome between me trying my ass off and doing well, and me inting every single game. There is NONE. I could have gone 0/53981 in every single game, and placed exactly where I did when i went 7/3 and got S in 5 games.

That's bad design on Riot's end, no buts about it. That's a flaw in their design perspective as a whole.

EXE FallenKnight4 votes

Heres the thing, the placements for the new season are a SOFT reset. It isnt designed for you to have a clean slate. If anything its more of a soft SETBACK than a reset. The only reason they do it is because they want a portion of the year where they can make radical changes in gameplay without people bitching "WHY WOULD RIOT DO THIS ITS RUINING MY RANKED GAMES" because they are too stubborn to not play ranked or because riot doesnt have a lull after the patch where new things cant be used in ranked"

You win 7 out of 10 games thats good you should be proud, but tell me. If you win 7/10 games during the season do you go up several ranks? One maybe but not several. So why should winning 7/10 games here give you a big boost when it wouldnt during the season anyway.

The answer to your question of "why should I try" is: because it is ranked lol. You should try because in ranked you have to EARN your rank, as you are compared to your peers.

At the end of the day you are not the only one dealing with the hardships of trying to fight for a better rank. Everyone else is having the same or at least similar obstacles to overcome.

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

Most excellent answer.

Mig891 votes

Complaining about dropping from bronze 4 to 5 is almost (almost) coming across whiny when you see the best challenger players sent back to platinum. You can easily get out of bronze if you just focus on dying less. If you have a basic understanding of macro play youll climb out like theres no tomorrow. Focus on everything but 1v1 fights and youll do fine.

Ahri Baka3 votes

Actually , I know Bronze 3 people won all 10 placements and ended up in Bronze 5 , but cheer up , the mission gave 2500 xp and it was really good , anyway just play any meta champion and you will rank up really fast

JoeMG2 votes

This happened to me last season. B2 the season before. Went 8/2 in placements against silvers and some golds, got B4.

May as well consider placements as warmups and accept that we just have to start lower than last season.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

You always start lower than last season that's how it always has worked. Riot even puts announcements out trying to explain this to players.

JoeMG1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PfE9kxvI,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-01-26T02:43:48.300+0000)

You always start lower than last season that's how it always has worked. Riot even puts announcements out trying to explain this to players.

I was kind of under the assumption that when they mention you will likely start lower, that it would be based on a similar performance.

If you are just guaranteed to start lower regardless of performance, than OP's point is basically valid.

GentlemanGhidora2 votes

I at least have some sense of false hope with full, fair-handed placements. Not this last game I just played (edit: played another). Cho top went afk once we actually had any sense of a lead and our Lux support kept disconnected so often that 5 of her deaths was to that and by extension let our Jinx die 3 times because of her sudden absence where they COULD have saved her.

And the most infuriating part of it that I was so tilted I forgot to even report for afks.

Edit again: if I place Bronze 5 after this final game, that'd just be the icing on this charcoal-covered cake that is how the placements are so skewed, like you said.

(Final Edit: Yup, Bronze V, just finished.)

Fegone2 votes

There is a difference whether you go 7-3 or 0-10, even if you're placed in B5 in both scenarios. Your hidden MMR will be higher in the 7-3, which affects who you play with, who you're matched against, how much LP you get. If you're 0-10 and B5, then to the system you're Plastic 5. However if you're 7-3 and B5, the system knows you're about where you belong, but if you keep winning games, you climb more easily because the system detects that you're supposed to be in a higher tier than you are (based on your hidden MMR). So you get more LP until you plateau again in the tier you actually belong in.

Also, you're just placed a few sub tiers below your past placement. Other people are going from Challenger to Plat after their placements. That's 3 full tiers down. Not just 2 or 3 sub-tiers. Everyone resets and nobody should expect to place where they were last season, even with a 10-0.

RocketRelm1 votes

While that in general makes sense, I sympathize with the specific sentiment that these placements are wasted time. If you're 100% garenteed Bronze 5, which seems to be everyone in bronze, they genuinely should just skip the placements. The primary reason I'd say is that those ten games could have been spent getting LP, and (especially if the mmr is even or better on LP gain), feel terrible. to go 7-3, but not have the net 4 wins worth of LP to bump you up a rank.

Fegone1 votes

{quoted}

While that in general makes sense, I sympathize with the specific sentiment that these placements are wasted time. If you're 100% garenteed Bronze 5, which seems to be everyone in bronze, they genuinely should just skip the placements. The primary reason I'd say is that those ten games could have been spent getting LP, and (especially if the mmr is even or better on LP gain), feel terrible. to go 7-3, but not have the net 4 wins worth of LP to bump you up a rank.

Yes, I agree with you. But at the same time, I wouldn't see the solution in letting Bronze people skipping the placement games. I think the system in general should not be tier based, but solely MMR based. Take away all placement games and promotion games to advance to the next level, and apply the levels automatically to your current MMR. So, you play 10 games and get a certain MMR. lets say in the range from 0 - 2800 (or whatever it is, just picked it from chess). Then Riot applies the tiers: Top 200 players: Challenger Next 0.001%: Master Next 0.01% Diamond Next 1% Platinum Next 15%: Gold Next 45%: Silver Rest: Bronze

This way you automatically move up and down the ladder when you win/lose, and no promo games are needed. You can also drop a tier if you don't play, even in lower tiers, if other people go above you and you find yoruself in a lower % class the next day. I don't see how this system would NOT be 1000000% better.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Rank aims to be an accurate measure of your skill, not a reward for effort put in. If you went 7/10 against players who all were challenger and ended up rbonze 5 that would be one thing to question, but for all we know the players you were up against were even weaker than bronze 5 would indicate, but bronze 5 happens to be our lowest rank available.

And yes, there do exist significant skill tiers below bronze 5, a bronze 5 player would stomp all over almost anyone below level 30 who isn't a smurf just as an obvious example. There are also plenty of people who almost only play cop vs ai or aram - such players would get crushed in ranked by even a bronze 5 player.

GripaAviara3 votes

Then whole statement: weaker than bronze 5 , is wrong. Nobody is weaker than B5 since B5 is the bottom.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Semantics. A player weaker than bronze 5 would be one who would drop down if a tier was added below bronze. That's the point I was making the bottom rank we give people nowadays of bronze 5 is actually still too high as there are many people in bronze 5 0lp who are disproportionately weaker than bronze 4 players than the others in bronze 5.

In the ol' days if you didn't meet the minimum mmr for bronze 5 you were just unranked.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Placements help determine what your starting MMR should be when you finish them. If you went 7-3, then that means you should have pretty high MMR to start out with.

chipndip12 votes

The season resetting isn't a freebie to just jump a ton of elo brackets. The system isn't cheating you. You just want handouts.

The soft reset generally puts people either even to where they were or a bit backwards, but it also straightens out your mmr with your new elo so that your elo gains feel good again (less +19/-18, more +25/-15). If you start actually winning games, you should climb. If you don't, then you won't.

ISOzHell1 votes

[{quoted}](name=VEX Jiarg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PfE9kxvI,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-25T04:54:28.899+0000)

So I ended last season at Bronze IV. I ended up becoming really good at a few champions (read: Hecarim is broken rn) during the pre-season. I ended up doing incredibly well in my placements - I went 7W/3L and got at least an S- in 5 of those games. I was really proud of myself, thinking "wow, I should place high bronze and then be able to climb to silver in like a month"

Nope, Bronze V. Dreams crushed.

Now I get that you're supposed to place lower than where you ended last season. That makes total sense to me. It just begs the question:

"If I can win 7 out of 10 games and place at the worst rank possible, why even try?"

I could have literally intentionally fed and lost every single game, and placed in exactly the same spot. Why did I bother concentrating, or focusing so hard on counterpicks and lane matchups, when there is zero motivation for me to do well? Like at least make me B4. Or perhaps set the lowest possible rank one can place at B4, that way there's still room to drop.

My ultimate suggestion is that players who ended in Bronze should place anywhere from Bronze 4 to Bronze 1 in the next season, based on their performance in placements. Y'know... make them actually mean something__, for God's sake.

It is flawed and very badly, my guess is riot puts the biggest spenders at the top. That is my guess, money talks. I went same 7 wins, 3 losses, went with no deaths in four of those games and had a positive KDA, and teamwork in all but one game, I think I had 1 death over my kills which I still did great in and I get BV. I just started playing too maybe 5 months ago, landed silver 2 before the reset. Riot favours players, anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

And the exploits I have seen in the time I have been playing is crazy. Map and ward exploits being the most common.

VEX Jiarg1 votes

Biggest spenders at the top? As funny as it would be if that were true, I've dropped about 1k on the game on this account, so that isn't the case.

ISOzHell1 votes

[{quoted}](name=VEX Jiarg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PfE9kxvI,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-01-26T21:09:44.008+0000)

Biggest spenders at the top? As funny as it would be if that were true, I've dropped about 1k on the game on this account, so that isn't the case.

I think it is, the ones who also make Riot money go the top as well.

revliledpembroke1 votes

I went 1-9 and I placed into Bronze 1. Figure THAT out.

Edit: With some of the worst games I have ever played, too.

VEX Jiarg1 votes

I placed in exactly that way my first season, I think.

I assume you're placing for the first time?

revliledpembroke1 votes

Nope. I placed back around season 4/5 (I started playing when Vel'Koz was released, but took a while to try ranked). Bronze II-ish, I believe. Played around for a bit and might have gotten up to 1, but, well, ranked was the most toxic and LEAST fun I've ever had playing League, so I stopped playing.

Only played it this year to complete those missions, and I'm still not sure that free level up was worth it.

DEDManWonderLand1 votes

All those guys saying "you probably play like a bronze v player" the placement system is retarded. I also won 7 out of 10 matches all of which has decent cs and had me carrying as a support for some of them. I placed silver v season 6 didnt take ranked seriously and mostly played aram. Then got booted to bronze v season 7 and didnt get out of bronze in time. Highest i made it was b2 but thanks to MMR i got shitty teams vs really good ones and ended in b3. Why am i placed at b5 this season? Dont hit me with that BS about playing at a B5 level i placed silver 5, 2 seasons ago. i also climbed to b2 last season. Justify that? Its a flawed system that rewards no one. If you struggle all year long to make silver only to end the season and be placed in bronze again that isnt fair. I had a plat 3 friend drop to goddamn silver v.

Mig891 votes

Complaining about being bronze 5 when you were bronze three isnt going to get you much sympathy only because theres not much of a difference between the two. If you know how tom play the whole map as a support youll get out in no time. I was brand new two seasons ago and did it quickly. Just do a few things and youll see your winrate skyrocket: Ward the enemy jg if you see their jg toplane and their mid is still in lane. If your ADC is god awful, roam every chance you get and beg them to play safe. Be a playmaker for your team. An ADC behind 50 cs just because they cant last hit isnt going to improve in a game. Ward objectives in advance to trying to take them. Youll setup picks

green smite1 votes

Then just smurf your way back up to Bronze IV. S- aren't just about how you play but also about how badly your opponent plays. I would hardly say a 70% win rate in 10 games is indicative of your rank. If you have a plat mmr in normals during off season you'll be placed acordingly and not in bronze

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