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PSA: About all this "Support Singed" case

Stars Shaper··33 votes·3,770 views

This thing exploded like a nuclear bomb on the boards and ppl are taking extremist positions about that player pick and behavior making their arguments, valid or not. So, since we are here I wanted to put down some guidelines about what is and what is not supportive behavior without any prejudice.

First of all... Should I behave supportive? Hell yeah! Like it or not you are in that position, intentionally playing like you are any other laner with the focus on farming and kills is not what you are supposed to do. This doesn't mean that you should never do it, it's just not your primary focus and falls really down in terms of priority.

But what decides which is a "Supportive behavior"? Common sense. You are not supposed to be a healer nor to soak any incoming damage from the enemies. But since you have one less thing to care about (farming) you have to put more effort into controlling the field, which means wards, signals for ganks/MiA and securing kills when the chance comes.

Does it mean I'm stucked in botlane babysitting the ADC? Not at all. Given the conditions you are free to roam and farm some gold yourself, note though that leaving alone a rather vulnerable player in a lane where usually you'll find 2 players contesting him brings a lot of risks in doing so and when you decide to leave both you and your ADC must do your best to make it possible bringing in vision and be ready to retreat.

But I picked a mage/bruiser/damage oriented character and I want to play it! Fair enough, what is that thing that your char is supposed to do? All-in? Poke? CC-Nuke combo? Then a good coordination with your lane partner can bring some huge snowball potential which also can give you more freedom about roaming and farming.

To put it simple, it doesn't really matter who you play, we've seen double ADC Marksmen lanes in worlds! But this things are going to work if both the laners (and the team too) work around making it possible. It's not picking X that makes you a good/bad support, it's how you use it to advantage your team.

39 Comments

Chamuel8511 votes

PSA: Wards is everyone's job. This is probably not what you meant to imply, but it's ambiguous. I can see too many people getting the idea that Support = only they ward.

Also it's too much of a grey area to ban someone who is not doing their job. Singed is a clear case. However, where do we draw that line? I see too many ADC's not help with dragons (and thus your team loses it because the people doing dragon take way more damage, and the enemy comes in and cleans it up) because they needed to get 4 more CS... or farm bot all game long and never group and thus get killed a lot because they're squishy and not with their team. They'll do this game after game. To me that behavior is extremely similar to this Singed case (aka not cooperating with team).

Stars Shaper2 votes

In my experience as solo lane main if I don't ward the shizzle out of the place I usually get stabbed to death (expecially since I have a tendency to over push a lane and getting fired up with it ^^). So I learnt to ward the hard way.

I didn't say it outloud because this thread was more focused around: what a good support is no matter the character picked. But as I said, collaboration is what wins games and ofc the ADC needs to be part of the team and not just a farmbot.

Chamuel853 votes

I figured that's what you were doing. I just wanted to put it out there for other people reading. :)

Sarutobi6 votes

Another great post on the matter. Plus communication is key. At the very least let your teammates know what you are doing!

Stars Shaper4 votes

Indeed.

This is one of the reasons I liked Team Builder, the chance to explain beforehand what you wanted to play and give the team time to tink about it instead of fearing a trollpick the moment you go.

Ginger9763 votes

Great layout, but don't waste your time. These boards are filled with people that love to argue for argument's sake.

mXcRaVeN3 votes

Lets talk about the last sentence saying he basically can't play singed support cause other players don't want him too. So with that statement I don't like my team playing like half the champs out there, does that allow them to be banned?

BuniStew3 votes

http://prntscr.com/d7u2wo It is shown that he is very communicative to his team and shows his pre game plan in full detail during champ select. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3C4-pnMiGc&feature=share a video about it

Wh1teWu1f3 votes

The thing about this entire case is that it's two sided by very respectable opinions (at least in my view). On one hand, the folks who support the singed are for individuality/against the idea of being forced into dropping their play style simply because their teammates don't like said play style. On the other hand, people who say that the singed deserved the ban, not for being toxic, but for forcing the rest of his team to play around what he wanted to do are for the idea of doing what is best for the team even if that means sacrificing their own play style or individual choice.

Obviously this raises the interesting question of who has the power in league, the team or the individual? Should the individual do what is best for the team, or does the team try to fit themselves around each individual player? And what happens if 2 individual players have colliding play styles? At that point, one would have to sacrifice their own play style to allow the other to utilize their own for the good of the team, but that would then sacrifice the individuality that was trying to be held together to begin with.

Very interesting case that's come up with very interesting topics coming up as a result. I think it'll be interesting to see how this ends up.

Eevee In A Jar2 votes

Actually it's not fair. most of the times even if it isn't a meta pick, people give other roles and players benefit of the doubt. It's rare for people to rage at someone for picking something that isn't seen that often in other roles or lanes. However, on the support position you literally get no quarter from the community. If I wanted to go Lee Sin support, and it works in theory because they have low mobility or low CC and little dueling capabilities, then it'll work and I should be given that same benefit of the doubt. Instead, no I get called names and bitched at for nonstop without even being given a chance. I reached plat season 5 on my brother's account using Lee Sin support. The problem here isn't Singed being the one forcibly making his teammate cater around his pick. It's just what he wants to play. If you want to start nitpicking like that, I have a problem every time someone in my team picks immobile ADC, sucks at positioning and has half-decent mechanics and dies in lane. I could have told that guy "well you prob shouldn't have picked an immobile champ against such a comp" but nah it's my fault because it's support. If you ban a support player for picking a champ he wants to go, then you're basically putting the incentive out there "Well if my ADC picks immobile ADC against Malphite and gap closing bruisers/assassins, I should be able to report him for not abiding to what the team might like in a pick rather than him wanting to play that champ.

There is a clear discrepancy of how supports are treated and no one wants to talk about it. Like how solo laners always bitch and brag on all chat about how support role is so easy yet whenever I solo lane I perform better than that guy mechanically. I put fill every game... not my fault 70% of players are retarded and doesn't know how to support properly. Every of myf riends who said shit like supporting is easy all suck at supporting and lose the bot lane.

There is a reason why no one wants to play support and this is it. However, after 6 seasons of this shit, I am pretty much done with patience and all that after all the bullshit thrown my way. I will continue making whatever picks I wanna fucking play. If I decide to pick Lee Sin support, I'm going to play Lee Sin support. I will support you but if you bitch at me about my pick and keep crying, it's less likely I'll be enthusiastic to supporting.

Wh1teWu1f2 votes

Most of this is a straw man argument telling me how shafted supports get when it comes to off-meta picks. While I agree that it is probably more common that this occurs, the reason he was banned is because he forced his ADCs to play passively under their tower opening themselves to tower dives or being forced to back. Am I saying his teammates are right and that he should be playing a different way? No, who am I to really say that? But I am also trying to ask the question of if it's fair for him to force the ADC into playing a specific way. These two questions are what we have to ask ourselves because it really speaks volumes about who is in control when it comes to strategy and such, the team or the individual players? If it's the team, then his ban is justified. If it's the individual players, then his ban is unjustified and should be lifted.

Bronze Demon3 votes

i question how its fair for ad bot to force support to play a certain way too. solo laners do not mind because they have no interaction with singed till late game. and singed is clearly working late game hence the 53% win rate at plat. why should ad bot hold the power to decide for support everytime?

Wh1teWu1f1 votes

That's what I'm trying to think about. Is it right for the ADC or Support to tell the other to go fuck themselves because they want to play a certain way?

This is probably the major problem with bot lane in that you have this dynamic where you try to get people to play as a team, yet you immediately tell two of them that one has to screw the other one over. It also doesn't help that we naturally have created the idea that the ADC has the power because they're literally a designated carry position, the support on the other hand is treated almost as though it is expendable; as a result, we have this dynamic in which the carry position calls the shots for what it needs because if it can't carry, your team is immediately at a disadvantage.

PS: Keep in mind that he also played singed top lane, so the win rate is slightly skewed and we don't completely know what the true win rate is, not saying it's entirely false that he did well with it, but I'd rather not use a win rate which could be off.

Stars Shaper2 votes

Unfortunally champion pick phase doesn't allow the randomly composed team to come at an agreement. Team Builder left this power in the hands of the captain but it still was better imo (if I'm not wrong that was the time we saw a lot of non-canon team comps like double mage bot).

Champion Skin1 votes

There is also another case which can be quite common... one person wanting to split push and the other 4 players wanting to group and teamfight... who's wrong? Who's right? difficult to say...

Aptest2 votes

yo stars:

you're not in any position to "offer guidelines" get off ladder.

SpaceCaptViral2 votes

You can get banned for playing off meta picks, this case is a bit extreme but many players have gotten banned for playing unpopular champions. Here is an example: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1675721

In other worlds people are taking it the wrong way, it's not about whether he went support and left lane, or because he didn't communicate with his team, the problem is that others don't like his pick and he will get punished for it. If I were to start playing Taric mid right now I guarantee it wouldn't take a month for me to get banned.

Stars Shaper2 votes

I think there are different issues here.

The case you posted was judged by the old Tribunal which was really enslaved by what the community thought. Imagine if today a yasuo main gets reported for whatever reason, that system would have him banned instantly because of the Yasuo hate.

I don't know how the current system works, but since it is somehow visioned by Riot I doubt that the issue was his pick/summoners choice but rather the fact that he didn't explain himself and didn't try to make things clear and communicate with his team after. This is what I'm guessing since I don't have the whole picture in front of me.

SpaceCaptViral1 votes

Basically if you are in the top % of reported players you get punished, in the case of a main Yasuo who gets banned for playing that champion badly I expect him to be able to appeal the ban, but he will still get banned in the first place.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

the old Tribunal which was really enslaved by what the community thought

You make it sound like this is a bad thing. This is how modern era legal systems work. A jury of your peers decides if you are guilty or innocent, and a judge determines your sentence based on the severity of the offense. The tribunal was exactly this. To replace it with a bot was simply put fucked the fuck up. If so many people voted to ban this guy that he actually got banned, that means there was enough evidence for them to punish. People on the tribunal didn't just spam click "ban" like you obviously think they do.

Stars Shaper2 votes

It's really different here in a online game enviroment where you don't have all the evidences, you don't discuss it with other jury members and you are really under the anonymous courtain of the net. It's also pretty clear that this community isn't majorly unbiased (juries are selected not to have biases, not just at random).

Yes I don't trust this community and I know that the Tribunal wasn't a ban fest, anyway I'd rather have Riot following it rather than the community, but that's my personal opinion.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

It's really different here in a online game enviroment where you don't have all the evidences

Do you know how the old tribunal worked? They would post the entire chat log (both teams) for each game that the player in question was reported and the full report of each reportee (including reason for report and any explanation given). Literally all possible evidence was given to the peers of the Tribunal. Now, Riot very intentionally ignores most of this, and only analyzes the chat from the specific player. So, in this system, a player could tell you to "drink bleach" and how they "hope that your family dies of cancer", and you will get banned for responding with a "fuck off", because the ban bot doesn't see what you were responding to. This sound fair to you?

MonkeyMadness1 votes

LOL you are citing a post from 2012. I guarantee that this guy got banned for verbal toxicity, but this was before Riot was brash enough to post chat logs when a player made a post like this. And even if he did get banned for trolling, if so many people reported him for trolling that it actually passed through the tribunal (which, btw, still existed then), he probably did it.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Champion Skin1 votes

Well really there isn't any particular need for the support to be bot lane at all... that is just a meta thing

DollaMenunaire1 votes

Riot, the company that thinks it's a good idea to buff mid laners, ban supports, and think everything is okay??

Stars Shaper1 votes

I guess the reasons for the ban were different from the ones exposed by the rioter reply (which is way misleading).

nice table1 votes

"support" shouldn't even be a role you have to fill, anyone should be able to play the game how they want to while trying to win and this guy was obviously doing it right since he was in the top 10% of the playerbase.

Stars Shaper1 votes

You can't ignore what the enemy team does though. If they keep the "botlane meta" and stay 2vs1 you can't just leave your ADC alone because you chose not to be that everyday support.

It would be the same with going full armor Taric even if the enemies are 5 magic damage dealers.

nice table2 votes

if his winning over half of his games what he does is more efficient than what the enemies are doing so why not? he also used to tell his team what he was doing so they could adjust their pick to it if they wanted to, i have played adc for duo junglers before and honestly it wasn't all that bad.

Champion Skin1 votes

Ehh that depends a lot... if the ADC is like Ezreal or something he might manage just fine in that 2v1 and if the ADC can manage just fine in the 2v1 why not use that free person to add pressure somewhere else

Supreme Senpai691 votes

tl;dr: Try to win.

Leaving your ADC alone in a 2v1 will obviously result in kills for the enemy team and putting your carry behind, making you less likely to win.

Champion Skin1 votes

Ehh no it doesn't obviously lead to kills for the enemy team... Ezreal or Caitlyn can farm quite well even 2v1 since they have such long range And it is even better if they are against Tristana since she auto pushes which means the ADC can farm under tower (though they would have to be careful about Alistar or other champions who could towerdive)

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Did I really need to say "except for two specific champions?"

MonkeyMadness1 votes

we've seen double ADC lanes in worlds!

No. This is wrong. We've seen double MARKSMEN bot in worlds. Please do not make the mistake of confusing a champion's class with it's role/position on the team. MF was playing a support, building support items (with a bit of dps utility items, ie black cleaver), and warding. Clearly not an "attack damage carry".

However, I do generally agree with your assessment. This singed support guy is very obviously a troll and is in no way, shape, or form playing in a manner that benefits his team, so the two week ban is more than justified.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Poor choice of word by me.

Eevee In A Jar3 votes

What are you talking about? There are videos showing his gameplay. he's very cooperative and the game plan works albeit a bit different strategy. People who are just retarded and can't think at all/theorycraft don't understand that you can achieve the same things with different methods. I mean look at how many people get pissed at someone who makes non-meta picks. If it works it works. If it doesn't it doesn't. There's a saying in football and just about every sport if you play; "Even if it ain't pretty, a win is a win." Sure there could be improvements or you could be like "well if we had someone else it would be better" but that's not the situation you're in. About half the popular picks including some meta picks don't fucking help or improve what the team might need and they never get banned/reported for making those picks.

Jad1 votes

Great post, well said.

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